865 réponses à ce sujet

[Nole]

I f you read my post you can see that I actually said that the game may be **** for the majority of the people that played it , but no for everyone.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Kia Purity wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Kia Purity wrote...

For me, it was with the PR speak and the devs screaming at us for not understanding the ending.

Citation needed.

What, you weren't there? O_o It was all over the place on twitter and various interviews and even from community managers too. (Which I found very strange for them to lash out when they're supposed to play nice...)

God, I'm not going to even cite that because there's just too much crap to deal with and I don't want to deal with it all over again. I'm sorry I can't help you.

I was here, and nothing of what you typed sounds even close to what happened from my point of view. Devs did not scream how we were wrong and didn't understand the endings, but I do know that fans did that to the devs via caplocks.

You may not like bioware anymore, but don't try to pass off fans as innocent victims and bioware as immature instagators in this whole affair. The fans over-reaction was something shameful, espically with how they directed their anger to everyone, even fellow fans, just because they could. The medias reaction was also shameful, showing a disregard for fans while also emphasizing the large droves of lunatics who poured onto the bsn after the endings made them angry. Bioware I feel handlded things well in one of the only ways that didn't require them to bend down and grovel at the fans feet like a dog in order to try and win them back. They stuck to their idea, and they tried to reach a compromise, and that I feel takes a lot more guts and shows a much better commitment to writing than making a new re-write or retcon.

Everyone in the first months of the controvery should feel damn well ashamed at how they acted, and I feel nothing for you but pity if you don't see fault in how the fans handled their dissapointment on here.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 24 juin 2013 - 09:22 .

[MegaSovereign]

brettc893 wrote...

 By redeeming I mean, all of the brilliant fan theories that would have made everything better ending up wrong, a grand expansion never coming, things of that nature.

I'm gonna have to go with as soon as Omega came out.  

....Brilliant fan theories?

[brettc893]

MegaSovereign wrote...

brettc893 wrote...

 By redeeming I mean, all of the brilliant fan theories that would have made everything better ending up wrong, a grand expansion never coming, things of that nature.

I'm gonna have to go with as soon as Omega came out.  

....Brilliant fan theories?

I'm of course refering to The David Bowie Theory.

[MegaSovereign]

brettc893 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

brettc893 wrote...

 By redeeming I mean, all of the brilliant fan theories that would have made everything better ending up wrong, a grand expansion never coming, things of that nature.

I'm gonna have to go with as soon as Omega came out.  

....Brilliant fan theories?

I'm of course refering to The David Bowie Theory.

Well it has certainly not been unproven.

[dreamgazer]

brettc893 wrote...

I'm of course refering to The David Bowie Theory.

(fist bump)

[Cainhurst Crow]

dreamgazer wrote...

brettc893 wrote...

I'm of course refering to The David Bowie Theory.

(fist bump)

[seconded]

[o Ventus]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I f you read my post you can see that I actually said that the game may be **** for the majority of the people that played it , but no for everyone.

Which is irrelevant.

When something is made to generate profit, if a majority of people do not like it (and in ME3's case, return it for refunds en masse), then that something is an abject failure.

That's kind of how capitalism works.

Modifié par o Ventus, 24 juin 2013 - 09:33 .

[MegaSovereign]

o Ventus wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I f you read my post you can see that I actually said that the game may be **** for the majority of the people that played it , but no for everyone.

Which is irrelevant.

When something is made to generate profit, if a majority of people do not like it (and in ME3's case, return it for refunds en masse), then that something is an abject failure.

Is that actually the case for ME3? And if so is the refund trend unique to ME3?

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Is that actually the case for ME3?

Depends on who you ask and how they interpret Amazon's loose return policies.

[David7204]

You're deluding yourself if you really think a 'majority' of people were foolish enough to return the game as a clumsy attempt to spite BioWare.

Because that's exactly what it is, of course. A clumsy attempt to spite BioWare. Powerless people trying to grasp power the only way they can.

Modifié par David7204, 24 juin 2013 - 09:43 .

[MegaSovereign]

Well, in my case I trade in games I no longer play regardless of whether I liked them or not. It's the only way I can afford new games on my poor student budget.

I think refunds are more or less tied to a game's replay value.

[Nole]

I'm actually "assuming" that the haters are right and the majority hated the game just to please them a bit. But I don't know if that's quite true. I mean, in this forum people believed that Femshep was easily more played than Broshep, so...

[o Ventus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Is that actually the case for ME3?

$15 on Amazon a month after release. $20 at GameStop a month after release.

And if so is the refund trend unique to ME3?

No. Gears of War: Judgment was more or less the same. $60 on release day, people buy the game and return it because it's terrible, price drops to $20 the week following release everywhere that isn't Wal-Mart or BestBuy. Hell, for Judgment I've seen it drop to as low as $4 per new copy on Amazon.

[dreamgazer]

o Ventus wrote...

$15 on Amazon a month after release.

[Reorte]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I'm actually "assuming" that the haters are right and the majority hated the game just to please them a bit. But I don't know if that's quite true. I mean, in this forum people believed that Femshep was easily more played than Broshep, so...

I believe that no matter how great or terrible it is the majority don't really have an opinion (or not a strong one, at any rate). What's meaningful then is how much more love or hate than normal there is.

[Nole]

dreamgazer wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

$15 on Amazon a month after release.

Synthesis is canon.

[o Ventus]

I don't know how that graph got its information (2010-11 are listed as available dates, and it's listed as $60, 8 months before the game came out).

Modifié par o Ventus, 24 juin 2013 - 10:11 .

[dreamgazer]

o Ventus wrote...

I don't know how that graph got its information (2010-11 are listed as available dates, and it's listed as $60, 8 months before the game came out).

It looks like Amazon's listing had been available since June of 2011. (shrug)

[chemiclord]

It became clear that the endings weren't going to be "fixed" the moment I finished the game; for two reasons, mostly.

1) Bioware made it painfully clear they didn't think the endings were "broken" to begin with.

2) The only thing that could have salvaged it was a complete scrapping and rewrite, which was NEVER going to happen. EA would never allow it unless a price tag was attached, and that would only set off an entirely DIFFERENT ****storm of equal severity.

The blowback really demonstrated the worst of Internet culture from both sides, really. No one was particularly innocent. Yes, a subset of the fanbase used their disappointment and rage to act in a manner akin to 5-year olds screaming at the top of their lungs in the supermarket. They behaved atrociously, and I'm sure barely any of them are repentant for their behavior because it is for some reason acceptable to act that way on the Internet.

(Or... like someone with a Hackett avatar intentionally poking those upset with a stick because he took amusement in the flow of bitter tears.  Not that we knew ANYONE who behaved like THAT... )

That said... when you have people who are that emotionally invested to the point of psychological harm done to them when a story doesn't unfold the way they want, you as a creator should KNOW that sort of behavior is going to follow. It's not right, but it's GOING to happen. The answer is not to run away and hide like Bioware did. You cannot abandon your forum to the vitriolic trolls, let them dictate the environment, then be aghast when your forums turn toxic.

I wouldn't say that Bioware's response was "insulting" more that it was "defensive." EXTREMELY defensive. The entire Gamble incident cuts both ways here; yes... there were a couple of clowns that went out of their way to be combative; but at the same time Gamble was looking for ANY way out, and took the first opportunity he could to bail out and hide. Ban the clowns. Don't run away from them and leave the rest of your fanbase to be poisoned.

Even if they feel they produced something substandard, at this point, there really isn't ANY way that it can be "fixed." It's not feasible in any economic way that won't simply incite more rage. It's over. It's done with. Time to let this mangy dog die.

Modifié par chemiclord, 24 juin 2013 - 10:22 .

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In response to the original question:

Leaving aside the question whether ME3's ending is really irredeemable or not from a reasonably objective viewpoint, and regardless that ending options exist I can choose with a reasonable level of mental effort at interpreation, it does still leave a bad taste in my mouth.

The reasons for that, however, are not so easy to determine. Is it because the OE even existed which I found so depressing? Is it because of the thematic inconsistencies in the Synthesis ending? Because of the forced sacrifice theme? Because of the fact that the EC is sugaring up the endings (which is appreciated) but doing not so much for consistency? Because the trilogy started out as a reasonably good SF story and then veered off to deal with "essences of species" and "soul cannons"? Because the ending expects me to put my faith in ME's god analogue who is also the Bigger Bad of this story?

Which of all these things are objective flaws, which contribute to my emotional dissatisfaction? I find this not easy to decipher. The ME3 endings have a history that does not leave my opinion of the final version untouched.

In hindsight, there were four defining moments in my experience of ME3's story, which made me increasingly realize that it wasn't a a story written for me.

The first one was at Thane's deathbed, when I couldn't opt out of the line "You'll not be alone long". That was when I realized my protagonist wasn't my character any longer.

The second one was when unconscious Shepard started floating upwards on that platform and came face to face with....the god-analogue of the MEU. The aesthetics of the scene are suggestive, and I felt the game kick me with the message "You mere human cannot hope to win. You need the help of a higher power."

The third one was when the Catalyst said "I control the Reapers", when I realized that I wouldn't only have to put my faith in a god-analogue, no, I had to put my faith in an *evil* god-analogue. Never mind that the terms "good" and "evil" cannot be reasonably applied to the Catalyst, that's how it came across on an emotional level.

The fourth one was when I realized that whatever I chose, I ended up creating a universe which could be described as a luddite's dream (in the original endings).

So what do all of these have in common? They all allude to religious themes (the last one alludes to Ragnarök). So asked "What did the most damage to ME3's endings" (leaving aside the question of whether they're really irredeemable) my answer is: religion did. Religious themes that were forced into a classic SF story, the attempt to use the "higher power" allusion to exact unwarranted trust from the protagonist, a dark age defined as the desirable post-Ragnarök renewal, the barely masked idea of the protagonist "sacrificing their soul" in Synthesis, the premonition of death and the dreams.

Did this make the ending irredeemable? Maybe not from an objective viewpoint, though epic storytelling flaws do exist. What it did, however, was to make the ME trilogy "not my story" on a fundamental level, and the fact that the story promoted so many traditionalist stereotypes didn't help at all. I fought this by writing up my own interpretations, reinterpreting much of the BS in more appropriate terms. One of the results is my Synthesis compendium thread. But in spite of that, and in spite of the EC which gave me an outcome I could identify with, ME3's endings still leave a bad taste in my mouth, and the blame for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the religious themes.

I can agree with this.  Some people like the religious forced-death of Shepard.  I don't.  I don't think Shepard has to die in every ending, not that it shouldn't be possible.  But whatever.

[PMC65]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Everyone in the first months of the controvery should feel damn well ashamed at how they acted, and I feel nothing for you but pity if you don't see fault in how the fans handled their dissapointment on here.

I am going to respectfully disagree with this statement. Not everyone should feel ashamed as not all ME players were disrespectful or out of line. Not everyone was calling for people to be fired or demanding that the ending be changed.

After playing the game and not quite understanding what I had just seen ... as in, was that the ending? I came here to see what I had missed. There were those who were frothing at the keyboards but then there were those who were just trying to figure out what Bioware had meant.

Then all of the individuals that did not feel the ending was satisfactory were lumped together as a whole, just as your statement above, and called "haters" and "whining". There was an imaginary line drawn and you had to be on one side or the other according to some. I chose Switzerland myself. No, I did not like the ending but I also knew that the Bioware team had really wanted me to ... that they had worked hard and spent long hours (putting their private lives at times on hold for this game). I appreciated what they had tried to do and wished that I had loved the finished product.

I was not angry but sad. Sad for them and me. Luckily, a few months later I had the chance to speak with ME people at the Bioware base outside of the SDCC. The conversations were honest and respectful ... Bioware has some really great people on their staff who care about their fans and will listen as long as it does not become toxic. Even then I have seen them show a great deal of patience where someone has become very rude and/or unreasonable. 

I believe that Casey and Mac were trying to give an ending that would inspire people to participant in the "what happened to Shepard and the MEU" with them ... and that they were trying to be daring. Sometimes when people take risks they don't work out as planned. Given the backlash, this might be the case. Maybe one day I'll have the chance to talk with either Casey or Mac about what their ending vision was.