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[ObserverStatus]

When did I realize there was no hope for the endings? After EC came out, of course. At least before then I could pretend that in the aftermath of control, Shepard would simply rebuild the relays, fly all the reapers into a star and let things go back to normal.

Modifié par bobobo878, 25 juin 2013 - 09:16 .

[GimmeDaGun]

I liked the initial idea behind the ending when the game first came out. What I disliked about it was the actual execution. It felt rushed, unpolished and unfinished. It needed the EC.

The EC "redeemed" the ending of the game for me. Yeah, certainly those who hated the whole idea behind the ending still hate it. Bad for them. I like it, and I'm fine with it.

As for those who were hoping for a complete rewrite or new ending were kidding themselves from the get go, in my opinion. Not because Bioware is so mean and care not about their fans, but because what they were asking was somewhat ridiculous. For them the public statement about the EC and the EC itself should have been the moment of realisation.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 25 juin 2013 - 09:25 .

[Maxster_]

111987 wrote...

Maxster you are trying to drag me into so many different debates! From Shepard's revival to the Citadel DLC...I'm going to stick just with what we were already talking about

Anyways, your argument is boiling down to this; a couple million humans just don't matter. I'm sorry to say that I completely disagree with this.

You are wrong, but still continue to pretending this was my argument.
My argument was - ME2's story is completely unrelated to reapers threat, it doesn't solve anything. Change collectors with batarians - result will be the same.

Why does that fact that humans are more genetically diverse than the other species ignore the sum of human knowledge? Human knowledge does not include data on the genetic diversity of Salarians or Asari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

The Collectors weren't going to finish the Human Reaper, but why not work on it? As soon as the Reapers arrive, they can start sending processors from Earth through the Omega 4 Relay, and use their giant Reaper-making factory to enormously speed up the time it takes to create the Human Reaper.

And why exactly they need to speed up creation of human reaper? Especially when they haven't sped up it a bit, because of a small available population(less than 1/10000 of needed population).
You know, there is several thousands of similar reapers just arrived. More than enough to crush any opposition and finish harvest. Does one reaper makes a difference? No.

Ah yes, "humans are special", therefore "reaper made from humans is special".

That time Shepard bought was all the difference because it gave him time to unite the galaxy, and the galaxy time to build the Crucible.

Shepard hasn't bought any time in ME2.

Otherwise, as soon as the Reapers were done harvesting on Earth,

Which would took several decades.

they could just kill the rest of the humans and start attacking the other planets in force.

They could do all of that at the same time.

There were hundreds of Reapers on Earth. Imagine how much faster the galaxy would fall if those Reapers could reinforce their kin on Tuchanka, Thessia, Palaven, etc...

There was no reason for reapers to be on Earth.
There is no difference in speed because there is several thousands of sovereign class reapers.
Reapers are made utterly retarded by writers, - first thing reapers always did, was taking the Citadel and shutting down relay network, thus preventing any relocation of opposition, and allowing them to methodically crush pocket of resistance, without any losses.

[111987]

Maxster_ wrote...

111987 wrote...

Maxster you are trying to drag me into so many different debates! From Shepard's revival to the Citadel DLC...I'm going to stick just with what we were already talking about

Anyways, your argument is boiling down to this; a couple million humans just don't matter. I'm sorry to say that I completely disagree with this.

You are wrong, but still continue to pretending this was my argument.
My argument was - ME2's story is completely unrelated to reapers threat, it doesn't solve anything. Change collectors with batarians - result will be the same.

I've already explained why you are incorrect, and how stopping the Collectors did help against the Reapers. But that is addressed in the subsequent posts I will make.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

As I have said, just because humans are not very genetically diverse speaks nothing towards their relative diversity in comparison to other Council races.

And why exactly they need to speed up creation of human reaper? Especially when they haven't sped up it a bit, because of a small available population(less than 1/10000 of needed population).
You know, there is several thousands of similar reapers just arrived. More than enough to crush any opposition and finish harvest. Does one reaper makes a difference? No.

They have sped it up; they've abducted millions of humans. In the long-term it doesn't save all that much time, but capturing and processing millions of additional humans would take several days, if not weeks or months.

Ah yes, "humans are special", therefore "reaper made from humans is special".

No more special than the dozens of other races that have been made into Capital Ships.

Shepard hasn't bought any time in ME2.

Yes he has.

Which would took several decades.

Vendetta says on Cronos that the Reapers are preparing to finish the harvesting of humanity. So no, not quite.

[Dieb]

"Well, I did this very crazy thing, I didn't know what was going to happen, but they certainly booed, I'll tell you that. You could hear it all over the place. I mean, they must be pretty rich, to be able to go some place and boo. I couldn't afford it if I was in their shoes." -Bob Dylan

He said that after playing his first show with an electric guitar. Fans claimed everything he'd do from there on out was doomed to fail. That was 48 years ago.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 juin 2013 - 09:41 .

[Farangbaa]

Baelrahn wrote...

"Well, I did this very crazy thing, I didn't know what was going to happen, but they certainly booed, I'll tell you that. You could hear it all over the place. I mean, they must be pretty rich, to be able to go some place and boo. I couldn't afford it if I was in their shoes." -Bob Dylan

He said that after playing his first show with an electric guitar. Fans claimed everything he'd do from there on out was doomed to fail. That was 48 years ago.

Prepare to be raped by people who feel their life has been ruined by Bioware.

I, for one, love you for this post.

[Maxster_]

[quote]111987 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

Maxster you are trying to drag me into so many different debates! From Shepard's revival to the Citadel DLC...I'm going to stick just with what we were already talking about

Anyways, your argument is boiling down to this; a couple million humans just don't matter. I'm sorry to say that I completely disagree with this.
[/quote]
You are wrong, but still continue to pretending this was my argument.
My argument was - ME2's story is completely unrelated to reapers threat, it doesn't solve anything. Change collectors with batarians - result will be the same.
[/quote]

I've already explained why you are incorrect, and how stopping the Collectors did help against the Reapers. But that is addressed in the subsequent posts I will make.
[/quote]
All you did is made up some nonsense about Collectors somehow "sped up" the process of creation of a human reaper, having at best 1/10000 of needed materials, and Shepard stopping them, delayed their assault. Somehow
Pure nonsense.
[quote]
[quote]
http://en.wikipedia....astrophe_theory
[/quote]
As I have said, just because humans are not very genetically diverse speaks nothing towards their relative diversity in comparison to other Council races.
[/quote]
It just shows that EAWare have no idea about what they were writting. Like "synthesis is the final evolution of life", and " a new dna".
[quote]

[quote]
And why exactly they need to speed up creation of human reaper? Especially when they haven't sped up it a bit, because of a small available population(less than 1/10000 of needed population).
You know, there is several thousands of similar reapers just arrived. More than enough to crush any opposition and finish harvest. Does one reaper makes a difference? No.[/quote]

They have sped it up; they've abducted millions of humans. In the long-term it doesn't save all that much time, but capturing and processing millions of additional humans would take several days, if not weeks or months.
[/quote]
They haven't abducted millions, just several thousands. Terra Nova, the largest colony of SA, had only 4 millions of population, and was unaffected by collectors, being protected by SA fleet.
And they had far less than 1/10000 of needed materials, so they "sped up" construction in 1/10000 at best.
meaning that if construction time was a one Earth year, the've "sped up" this by 50 minutes.

Also, you have completely evaded the reason why they desperately needed said reaper in your nonsensical scenario.
[quote]
[quote]

Ah yes, "humans are special", therefore "reaper made from humans is special".[/quote]

No more special than the dozens of other races that have been made into Capital Ships.
[/quote]
So there is no reason for speeding up construction at all. I glad you finally agreed, that ME2's story is nonsense.

[quote]
[quote]
Shepard hasn't bought any time in ME2.
[/quote]

Yes he has.
[/quote]
How?
They had no reasons to sped up construction, and had no means to do so.
[quote]
[quote]
Which would took several decades.
[/quote]

Vendetta says on Cronos that the Reapers are preparing to finish the harvesting of humanity. So no, not quite.
[/quote]
How he knows that?
Protheans took hundreds of years to destroy, and harvesting, obviously is a more complex process than bombarding from orbit.

[Malchat]

I'm in this niche demographic that both dislikes the original ending and didn't want sweeping changes to game.

I was mostly holding out for the authors to step up and clarify their decisions and thought processes (even if it was just 'oops, we didn't think these aspects through' or 'we took some artistic shortcuts to avoid another delay in shipping' or 'this is our vision, because of XYZ, deal with it.').

Instead, Bioware adopted a siege mentality that I can't honestly blame them for - the backlash was fierce (although the company's PR effort and the mainstream gaming media didn't exactly calm things down.)

Guess I gave up hope when they did the extended cut podcast, which was extremely light on content and insight. I knew then that no frank explanation or critical postmortem was forthcoming.

Even now, when they obliquely talk about the ending controversy, it seems the only lesson they learned is: "don't have an abrupt finale."

Guess I'm disappointed that's the only takeaway.

[KiwiQuiche]

Psychevore wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

"Well, I did this very crazy thing, I didn't know what was going to happen, but they certainly booed, I'll tell you that. You could hear it all over the place. I mean, they must be pretty rich, to be able to go some place and boo. I couldn't afford it if I was in their shoes." -Bob Dylan

He said that after playing his first show with an electric guitar. Fans claimed everything he'd do from there on out was doomed to fail. That was 48 years ago.

Prepare to be raped by people who feel their life has been ruined by Bioware.

I, for one, love you for this post.

...


What an utterly disgusting thing to say, Psych.

[111987]

It just shows that EAWare have no idea about what they were writting. Like "synthesis is the final evolution of life", and " a new dna".

That's the story Bioware wanted to tell. Who are you to say how genetically diverse the species THEY created are? It is what it is.

They haven't abducted millions, just several thousands. Terra Nova, the largest colony of SA, had only 4 millions of population, and was unaffected by collectors, being protected by SA fleet.
And they had far less than 1/10000 of needed materials, so they "sped up" construction in 1/10000 at best.
meaning that if construction time was a one Earth year, the've "sped up" this by 50 minutes.

Also, you have completely evaded the reason why they desperately needed said reaper in your nonsensical scenario.

Horizon had nearly 700,000 colonists, half of which were taken. Freedom's Progress had 912,810. And that's just two of the many colonies taken. So yes, millions.

Machines are efficient; saving time is effcient. Simple as that.

You can't just make up numbers. You can't quantify how long it would take to round up millions of humans across the galaxy.

Finally, destroying the Collector Base destroyed their Reaper factory. This also delays them, as they have to now either build a new one, or acquire the Citadel. If it hadn't been destroyed, the harvested humans on Earth could have been sent straight to the Base, instead of just waiting until the Citadel had been taken.

So there is no reason for speeding up construction at all. I glad you finally agreed, that ME2's story is nonsense.

LOL what are you talking about? You are making up stuff now; my post had nothing to do with what you apparently  think it did.

How he knows that?
Protheans took hundreds of years to destroy, and harvesting, obviously is a more complex process than bombarding from orbit.

Completing the harvest doesn't mean the cycle is over, or even that humanity is totally wiped out. It just means they are ready to make the Human Reaper.

Modifié par 111987, 25 juin 2013 - 11:18 .

[FlamingBoy]

So.... bioware is Bob Dylan.

[Maxster_]

111987 wrote...

It just shows that EAWare have no idea about what they were writting. Like "synthesis is the final evolution of life", and " a new dna".

That's the story Bioware wanted to tell. Who are you to say how genetically diverse the species THEY created are? It is what it is.

Seems to me, that you are on a quest to defend all things bioware.

They haven't abducted millions, just several thousands. Terra Nova, the largest colony of SA, had only 4 millions of population, and was unaffected by collectors, being protected by SA fleet.
And they had far less than 1/10000 of needed materials, so they "sped up" construction in 1/10000 at best.
meaning that if construction time was a one Earth year, the've "sped up" this by 50 minutes.

Also, you have completely evaded the reason why they desperately needed said reaper in your nonsensical scenario.

Horizon had nearly 700,000 colonists, half of which were taken. Freedom's Progress had 912,810. And that's just two of the many colonies taken. So yes, millions.

Machines are efficient; saving time is effcient. Simple as that.

You can't just make up numbers. You can't quantify how long it would take to round up millions of humans across the galaxy.

Doesn't matter at all. So, it is like 1,3 millions, maybe 2. It doesn't change anything.

Finally, destroying the Collector Base destroyed their Reaper factory. This also delays them, as they have to now either build a new one, or acquire the Citadel. If it hadn't been destroyed, the harvested humans on Earth could have been sent straight to the Base, instead of just waiting until the Citadel had been taken.

Lolwhat?
Post before you were saying that Collectors sped up reaper creation process, and now you saying they haven't started that creation before citadel's arrival.
Riiight.
I suppose you know, that omega relay is on the other side of the galaxy, don't you?

It seems to me, that now you are making up "points".

So there is no reason for speeding up construction at all. I glad you finally agreed, that ME2's story is nonsense.

LOL what are you talking about? You are making up stuff now; my post had nothing to do with what you apparently  think it did.

Really?

No more special than the dozens of other races that have been made into Capital Ships.

You said that there is nothing special in human reaper, compared to other several thousands of sovereign class reapers.
Therefore, there is completely no reason to "sped up" construction process.
Therefore, there is no need for Collectors to act.
Therefore, ME2's premise and story is nonsense.

How he knows that?
Protheans took hundreds of years to destroy, and harvesting, obviously is a more complex process than bombarding from orbit.

Completing the harvest doesn't mean the cycle is over, or even that humanity is totally wiped out. It just means they are ready to make the Human Reaper.

It doesn't matter, because they have several thousands of sovereign class reapers. One sovereign class reaper makes no difference, there is completely no need to hurry, just destroy all space related infrastructure, leave small screen of dreadnoughts, and strike the Citadel with full might.

Well, there also is completely no need for them to stop on Earth and in batarian space - just head straight to the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relay network - and all is over.

So yes, Shepard hasn't slowed down reapers one bit in ME2. As is collectors actions in ME2 makes no sense, and doesn't help reapers who trapped in dark space. They can't finish reaper, they can't take Citadel and activate the relay in dark space.
Shepard stopping them from their meaningless activity, achieved absolutely nothing in stopping reapers threat. There also completely no reason to waste so much resources on Shepard, several standart frigates under Cerberus flag will do far more.

Therefore, ME2 is just a badly written filler, completely unrelated to a plot of stopping reapers.

Modifié par Maxster_, 25 juin 2013 - 11:46 .

[Dieb]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's kind of flawed analogy anyways. Bob Dylan's fans were originally in the late 50's/early 60's folk crowd. He didn't do anything particularly different except plug in and go electric. His music was still the same, if a bit bluesier and rock based. Those folk fans saw him as a sort of the second coming of Woody Guthrie who'd usher in more pure Americana type of music. Instead Dylan had a feel for rock by then. It'd be comparable if Bioware completely dropped RPGs and went into another genre. It has nothing to do with quality of writing.

Well, you misunderstood me here.  My analogy was intended to be about the position of judgement, not about the scale of the change.

I do believe however, there is hardly a value more vague than the "quality" of a story. You did not like it, and that is something its creators have to expect and absorb. But that doesn't obligate them to seek redemption.


P.S.: His music did change - numerous times. It did even before playing electric.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 juin 2013 - 11:51 .

[Maxster_]

LineHolder wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

In all honesty, I didn't think anything about the rest of the game was an indicator of what the quality (or lack thereof) would  be with the ending. I kind of feel sorry for all the people who did excellent work on other levels, the characters, the music, even the camera direction. There's a lot of obvious and subtle brilliance in the game. Yet it all gets pissed away in the last 5 minutes.

Btw, I'm coming from the perspective of a new player. I was never holding expectations of new DLC or anything, like some of you. All of it had already been released by the time I started.

This is almost the exact same sentiment I expressed somewhere else in this thread. The people in the gameplay and MP department have been let down by the writing staff. There's so much variety in gameplay that if you play as a power class, it outclasses almost all character action games of this generation.

Autodialogue - is a failure of direction. It was decided at the top, that to reduce costs, all role playing dialogue should be removed.

If you play a weapons based class, then it still is among the best shooters of this generation. 

I doubt bolded part.
Also, may i remind you, that ME1 was an RPG with action elements?
How did an rpg suddenly turned into a shooter? Well, they decided that ME3 doesn't need to be an rpg, and that it should be shooter with some rpg elements.

[111987]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

[quote]

It just shows that EAWare have no idea about what they were writting. Like "synthesis is the final evolution of life", and " a new dna".
[/quote]

That's the story Bioware wanted to tell. Who are you to say how genetically diverse the species THEY created are? It is what it is.
[/quote]
Seems to me, that you are on a quest to defend all things bioware.[/quote]

Not at all. There is plenty wrong with the series, but I disagree with many of the common complaints of the game.

[quote]
[quote]
They haven't abducted millions, just several thousands. Terra Nova, the largest colony of SA, had only 4 millions of population, and was unaffected by collectors, being protected by SA fleet.
And they had far less than 1/10000 of needed materials, so they "sped up" construction in 1/10000 at best.
meaning that if construction time was a one Earth year, the've "sped up" this by 50 minutes.

Also, you have completely evaded the reason why they desperately needed said reaper in your nonsensical scenario.
[quote]
Doesn't matter at all. So, it is like 1,3 millions, maybe 2. It doesn't change anything.[/quote]

Glad to know you don't think 2-3 million human lives don't matter. Nothing more to say on this point if this is your stance.

[quote]
Lolwhat?
Post before you were saying that Collectors sped up reaper creation process, and now you saying they haven't started that creation before citadel's arrival.
Riiight.
I suppose you know, that omega relay is on the other side of the galaxy, don't you?

It seems to me, that now you are making up "points".
[/quote]

I had already brought up the Collector Base earlier, but you had ignored it. So I brought it back.

Anyways, Relays mean that traveling to the Omega 4 Relay, especially for a Reaper, wouldn't take that long. Regardless, it is still faster than waiting around doing nothing.

The Collectors did speed up the process, but their progress was erased thanks to Shepard.

[quote]

No more special than the dozens of other races that have been made into Capital Ships.[/quote]
You said that there is nothing special in human reaper, compared to other several thousands of sovereign class reapers.
Therefore, there is completely no reason to "sped up" construction process.
Therefore, there is no need for Collectors to act.
Therefore, ME2's premise and story is nonsense.
[/quote]

You are making such strange leaps in logic.

Humans are special in this cycle because of our genetic diversity. But in other cycles, there were also special races chosen to be Sovereign class Reapers. One is chosen per cycle. This doesn't speak anything towards their absolute 'specialness'; just their relative 'specialness' compared to their 'competitors' in this cycle.
[quote]

Well, there also is completely no need for them to stop on Earth and in batarian space - just head straight to the Citadel, take it, and shut down the relay network - and all is over. [/quote]

Well presumably, having foreknowledge would allow Citadel Control to close itself in case of attack. They would then be impervious to attack. Of course, the Reapers take the Citadel at the end of the game anyways...which doesn't make sense.

See, I can point out things that are wrong as well.

[quote]

So yes, Shepard hasn't slowed down reapers one bit in ME2. As is collectors actions in ME2 makes no sense, and doesn't help reapers who trapped in dark space. They can't finish reaper, they can't take Citadel and activate the relay in dark space.
Shepard stopping them from their meaningless activity, achieved absolutely nothing in stopping reapers threat. There also completely no reason to waste so much resources on Shepard, several standart frigates under Cerberus flag will do far more.

Therefore, ME2 is just a badly written filler, completely unrelated to a plot of stopping reapers.

[/quote]

Nope.

Shepard has slowed them down by destroying the progress they did make, destroying the Collector Base (Reaper factory), and then later in Arrival. So ME2 clearly wasn't pointless. Without these things, the galaxy would not have had enough time to find the Crucible plans and then finish it in time before humanity was destroyed, if not for ME2.

Shepard is the only person who could have united the galaxy for several reasons, such as his fame and accomplishments giving him authority and respect, the resources of a Spectre, and the relations he built throughout the series.

Just look at Rannoch. You take Tali or Legion out of the equation, and it just doesn't work. Shepard's relations with those characters is the only way to save both of them. A bunch of Cerberus frigates would have been useless in the long run, and the galaxy would be doomed.

[KiwiQuiche]

I just want to point out, 111987, that Arrival is basically useless since nobody does anything with the extra time, making that 300,000 lives sacrifice moot.

[111987]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I just want to point out, 111987, that Arrival is basically useless since nobody does anything with the extra time, making that 300,000 lives sacrifice moot.

If the Alpha Relay wasn't destroyed, then the Reapers would have been able to use it to jump straight to the Citadel.

So basically, it would have been been as if they had just flooded through the Citadel Relay. It would be basically the same thing.

It also gave Liara enough time to discover the Crucible plans.

[Dieb]

StreetMagic wrote...

Actually, if you read my post above that one, I do like the story. Or many parts of it. Just not the ending. I can compartmentalize. Trying to at least.

I really didn't and I'm sorry about that.

Of course I don't like aspect of the story either. While I personally don't have a problem with it, I do realize that the extreme direction they took with the endings as they are leaves some people very disappointed or even sad - I don't see how that's suddenly related to something as abstract as "quality", though. Or how one would even measure it.

I hardly believe there's a part of the MEU or any fictional story, that would look any good after being dissected with such a ruthlessness and surgical precision as the BSN's.

At any rate, let's just agree on enjoying Dylan's music!

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 juin 2013 - 12:13 .

[KiwiQuiche]

111987 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I just want to point out, 111987, that Arrival is basically useless since nobody does anything with the extra time, making that 300,000 lives sacrifice moot.

If the Alpha Relay wasn't destroyed, then the Reapers would have been able to use it to jump straight to the Citadel.

So basically, it would have been been as if they had just flooded through the Citadel Relay. It would be basically the same thing.

It also gave Liara enough time to discover the Crucible plans.

That wasn't my point; my point was, everyone did nothing whatsoever with the additional time. Shepard was retarded enough to let herself get jailed and sat on her ass like everyone else for six months. That is my issue.

[111987]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

111987 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I just want to point out, 111987, that Arrival is basically useless since nobody does anything with the extra time, making that 300,000 lives sacrifice moot.

If the Alpha Relay wasn't destroyed, then the Reapers would have been able to use it to jump straight to the Citadel.

So basically, it would have been been as if they had just flooded through the Citadel Relay. It would be basically the same thing.

It also gave Liara enough time to discover the Crucible plans.

That wasn't my point; my point was, everyone did nothing whatsoever with the additional time. Shepard was retarded enough to let herself get jailed and sat on her ass like everyone else for six months. That is my issue.

All the ME2 guys were doing stuff. Jacob was helping people get out of Cerberus. Garrus was convincing the Turians to believe in the Reaper threat. Mordin was working on the genophage cure. Liara was uncovering the plans for the Crucible, etc...