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At what point did it become clear to you that there was no hope for redeeming the endings?


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#126
Clayless

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iakus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

So what you're saying is Bioware listened to fans, therefore it was an insult to the fans they didn't listen to?


They listened to the fans who they wanted to listen to, who were already amenable to their "vision", yes.

I recall there was a prett in-depth survey on a German site.  Even Bioware took an interest in how it would turn out.  At least until it demonstrated how overwhelmingly negative the response was to the ending, how many people wanted a happier outcome, nboth for SHepard and for the galaxy as a whole.  Then suddenly the poll was meaningless.  Bioware's "secret data" said so.

More and more varied endings.  Not "pick one of our awesome choices or everyone dies anyway"


So what you're saying is Bioware insulted fans by listening to them, and the way to not insult fans would be to make more endings?

I say that creating more endings would be an insult to fans, as it goes against Bioware's vison and shows that if someone shouts loud enough they'll relent, whilst ignoring those that don't want more choices.

How would Bioware solve this situation without insulting anyone?

#127
KaiserShep

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iakus wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...


Both Mass Effect 2 and 3 base their conclusions on the setups given throughout each game. In 2, you're told it would be a suicide mission, but you spend the entire game preparing your crew and preparing your ship to fight the Collectors. It's pretty much a given that you have a chance of survival, and have a chance to bring at least some of your crew back. In 3, the entire thing revolves around gathering resources to build the Crucible. You get scientists, engineers, etc. all dedicating their efforts into building and protecting it.


You also spend much of the game preparing for the unknown, not knowing what you may find on teh other side fo the relay.  In ME3 you spent pretty much the whole game not knowing what the Crucible does or what the Catalyst was.

The way I see it, the only reasonable way refuse would work that doesn't involve certain death would be that everything the catalyst told you was a lie to get you to get one of its own desired results, and it fired up, fried him into oblivion, and sent all the reapers to hell. That would've been nice, but I don't believe it was even in the cards that BioWare was even going to consider such a thing.


The EMS system was practically designed to allow varied outcomes based on a magic number.  More variations could have been provided based on your score.  Or Shepard could even figure out a new function, based on in-game factors.


My second point on refusal is in the same vein as the bolded statement here. It's just an example of a new possibility, of course minus any key details. Don't get me wrong. I fully agree that the EMS system should have determined a wider variety of outcomes. My point is simply that refusal to actually utilize the Crucible at all is guaranteed to bring failure. 

#128
Clayless

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

You didn't even read the source, did you. Seriously, do I need to hand hold you via quoting directly and slowly explaining it or something?


I did.

And yes, please do.

#129
KiwiQuiche

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Robosexual wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

You didn't even read the source, did you. Seriously, do I need to hand hold you via quoting directly and slowly explaining it or something?


I did.

And yes, please do.


This is nearly as good as Goldie.

First;
"Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by
our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as
seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for
example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive.
We listen and will respond to constructive criticism,
"
So only a small number complained and we should not point out all the crap things in the game because they only want praising feed-back without pointing out their numerous failures.
"The reaction to the release of Mass Effect
3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are
passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game
concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly
address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole
is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review
score and a review average in the mid-90s."

So basically who cares when people complain, they got 75 scores.

Chris also showed up, basically they don't wanna talk about it, then ended with
"In the meantime, let’s give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether
you loved the ME3 ending or didn’t or you just have a lot of questions,
he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had
while playing games. What was your favorite moment?
"
Basically ignoring the problem til the end.

Then Casey lays this on
We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”,
See, we are invalid 'cause everyone else loves it oh and those 75 scores so who cares.
“We also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more
closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and
these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has
always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.”

Once again they shove the people who disliked the end as "most passionate" and basically side-lining them as people reacting in 'fits of passion' then goes on to talk about From Ashes and common sense.



And that's enough hand-holding for now. If you can't even be bothered reading the sources, then don't ask for them.

#130
Iakus

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Robosexual wrote...

So what you're saying is Bioware insulted fans by listening to them, and the way to not insult fans would be to make more endings?


Bioware insulted fans by refusing to acknowledge why people disliked the endings.  They added one new ending, but one that was as needlessly tragic as all the others.  Some people liked it, I suppose.  Heck some people like the other endings, for reasons I cannot fathom.

But anyone who wanted a more upbeat ending, who wanted endings where Shepard could live and/or not commit an atrocity on the galaxy, no.  Those fans were disregarded and insulted, thanks for your money, now shove off! 


If you don't like the endings, you're just confused and don't get how awesome they are.

If you refuse to choose, rocks fall, everyone dies.

 If you dare disrepect the Catalyst, the bringer of these options:  Rocks fall, everyone dies.

But don't worry, Casey Hudson wants your opinion on where to go next with the Mass Effect franchise!  Isn't that wonderful? <_<

I say that creating more endings would be an insult to fans, as it goes against Bioware's vison and shows that if someone shouts loud enough they'll relent, whilst ignoring those that don't want more choices.

How would Bioware solve this situation without insulting anyone?


I find it incredibly hard to believe that more options would make people angry.  Especially in a choice based role-playing game.  

#131
Gold Dragon

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It became clear to me when I understood that the Underlying theme of all three ME games was Sacrifice.

In ME 1, you sacrifice 1 character (Ashley or Kaidan) and potentially your (character's) career and the Council.

In ME 2, you sacrifice up to everyone but Chakwas and Joker.  You are even TOLD this (the Consort's email).

In ME 3, you can potentially sacrifice up to half the galaxy.


:wizard:

#132
Clayless

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

This is nearly as good as Goldie.

First;
"Some of the criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion by
our most ardent fans, even if founded on valid principles, such as
seeking more clarity to questions or looking for more closure, for
example – has unfortunately become destructive rather than constructive.
We listen and will respond to constructive criticism,
"
So only a small number complained and we should not point out all the crap things in the game because they only want praising feed-back without pointing out their numerous failures.


That's not what they say there at all. He's point blank says they listen and will respond to constructive criticism, no where does that even remotely imply that they "only want praising feedback without pointing out their numerous failures". The only way that could possibly look like they're saying that is if you believe destructive criticism is the same as constructive criticism, and that constructive criticism is somehow praising rather than, you know, criticism.

"The reaction to the release of Mass Effect
3 has been unprecedented. On one hand, some of our loyal fans are
passionately expressing their displeasure about how their game
concluded; we care about this feedback, and we’re planning to directly
address it. However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole
is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review
score and a review average in the mid-90s."

So basically who cares when people complain, they got 75 scores.


That's not what they say there at all. In fact the entire blog is about Bioware saying they care that people complain, hence the reason they're releasing a free DLC to address these complaints. The entire blog is a direct response to the complaints that Bioware received, with the message that they care about them and are doing something about it, for free.

Chris also showed up, basically they don't wanna talk about it, then ended with
"In the meantime, let’s give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether
you loved the ME3 ending or didn’t or you just have a lot of questions,
he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had
while playing games. What was your favorite moment?
"
Basically ignoring the problem til the end.


Or wanting to talk about other things too? Gauging reaction to what people enjoyed, rather than talking about the ending. They're not even ignoring the problem, hence the EC. Saying otherwise simply isn't true, and it most definately isn't an insult.

Then Casey lays this on
We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”,
See, we are invalid 'cause everyone else loves it oh and those 75 scores so who cares.


They never said, or even implied, "who cares" or that those that hated it are "invalid". They did get incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, saying so isn't an insult. Saying "who cares/are invalid" would be, but he doesn't. As you saw, the EC shows that they do care.

“We also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more
closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and
these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has
always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.”

Once again they shove the people who disliked the end as "most passionate" and basically side-lining them as people reacting in 'fits of passion' then goes on to talk about From Ashes and common sense.


Directly addressing them isn't sidelining, and saying that they're some of their most passionate fans isn't an insult either. What is insulting about addressing the fact that some of their most passionate fans weren't happy, and that they're directly addressing this for free?

You say that's enough "hand holding", but then, as you can see above, you just point blank made things up. "Only want praising feedback"? "Who cares when people complain"? Pure nonsense that wasn't evident in your sources, and is actually directly contradicted by them. If you want to hold my hand through the sources you provided then please make sure your claims are actually evident in said sources.

#133
Clayless

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iakus wrote...

Bioware insulted fans by refusing to acknowledge why people disliked the endings.  They added one new ending, but one that was as needlessly tragic as all the others.  Some people liked it, I suppose.  Heck some people like the other endings, for reasons I cannot fathom.

But anyone who wanted a more upbeat ending, who wanted endings where Shepard could live and/or not commit an atrocity on the galaxy, no.  Those fans were disregarded and insulted, thanks for your money, now shove off! 

If you don't like the endings, you're just confused and don't get how awesome they are.

If you refuse to choose, rocks fall, everyone dies.

 If you dare disrepect the Catalyst, the bringer of these options:  Rocks fall, everyone dies.

But don't worry, Casey Hudson wants your opinion on where to go next with the Mass Effect franchise!  Isn't that wonderful? <_<

I find it incredibly hard to believe that more options would make people angry.  Especially in a choice based role-playing game.  


So what you're saying is by not listening to all the fans, despite the impossibility of it due to contradictions, Bioware insulted the fans?

So Bioware insulted the fans and it was impossible for them not to, no matter what they did? Don't you realise how ridiculous it is to believe that?

Modifié par Robosexual, 24 juin 2013 - 03:19 .


#134
sharkboy421

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Bioware's offical responses during the period leading up to the release of the EC made it pretty clear the core of the ending would not change.  I had some small hope that maybe they were clever enough to write around it but as the EC proved, the core of the endings remained the same. 

While parts of the EC did make me smile, overall it did nothing affect or change my opinion.  Disappointing, but I still find ME3 to be a great game.

#135
KiwiQuiche

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Robo once again misses the point of passive-aggressiveness. Ah well.

#136
Iakus

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Robosexual wrote...

That's not what they say there at all. He's point blank says they listen and will respond to constructive criticism, no where does that even remotely imply that they "only want praising feedback without pointing out their numerous failures". The only way that could possibly look like they're saying that is if you believe destructive criticism is the same as constructive criticism, and that constructive criticism is somehow praising rather than, you know, criticism.


I guess that means criticism about how Shepard's chocies are three atrocities and death results in virtually all of them was "destructive criticism" since that didn't get addressed at all.

That's not what they say there at all. In fact the entire blog is about Bioware saying they care that people complain, hence the reason they're releasing a free DLC to address these complaints. The entire blog is a direct response to the complaints that Bioware received, with the message that they care about them and are doing something about it, for free.


Except EC didn't address the complaints, it's simply justification for the original endings.



They never said, or even implied, "who cares" or that those that hated it are "invalid". They did get incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, saying so isn't an insult. Saying "who cares/are invalid" would be, but he doesn't. As you saw, the EC shows that they do care.


We got the exact same endings, only more detailed (plus a bonus "rocks fall" outcome) despite feedback.  I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that "your opinion is invalid"

Actions speak louder than words.

Directly addressing them isn't sidelining, and saying that they're some of their most passionate fans isn't an insult either. What is insulting about addressing the fact that some of their most passionate fans weren't happy, and that they're directly addressing this for free?


Besides not addressing what all these passionate fans hated about the ending, you mean?

Modifié par iakus, 24 juin 2013 - 03:29 .


#137
KENNY4753

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Well I had hope until Citadel came out and game support was cut.

Puzzle Theory is how it should have been in the end. Thanks Jade for keeping my hope alive.

#138
Clayless

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

Robo once again misses the point of passive-aggressiveness. Ah well.


What you believe to be a passive aggressive insult doesn't actually make said thing a passive aggressive insult. And, as you can see, your entire source was your imagination.

For future reference, if you make a claim, make sure you have a source that's better than what you believe.

#139
KiwiQuiche

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Robosexual wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Robo once again misses the point of passive-aggressiveness. Ah well.


What you believe to be a passive aggressive insult doesn't actually make said thing a passive aggressive insult. And, as you can see, your entire source was your imagination.

For future reference, if you make a claim, make sure you have a source that's better than what you believe.


Only my imagination? The reactions of many others rebuke that assumption.

Maybe you should research your own claims then since yours is obviously superior.

#140
PMC65

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I must confess that the dialogue between you two is starting to read as follows ....

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Casey Hudson said "The fans are a bunch of morons who just did not have the brains to understand what was presented."


Robosexual wrote...

Nowhere does he mention Mass Effect 3 or the ending for that matter. He could have been talking about Last Of Us and Naughty Dog.


Posted Image

Note: The comments above were not written by KiwiQuiche & Robosexual ... it was simply meant as a parody. Posted Image

Modifié par PMC65, 24 juin 2013 - 03:48 .


#141
Clayless

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iakus wrote...

I guess that means criticism about how Shepard's chocies are three atrocities and death results in virtually all of them was "destructive criticism" since that didn't get addressed at all.


It actually got directly addressed, as you gain the ability to talk about them in more depth and even refuse them in the EC.

Except EC didn't address the complaints, it's simply justification for the original endings.


See above.

We got the exact same endings, only more detailed (plus a bonus "rocks fall" outcome) despite feedback.  I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that "your opinion is invalid"

Actions speak louder than words.


They never said they would be changing the endings. They said they are addressing the complaints and are releasing the EC in direct response to them. Addressing the complaints doesn't mean changing the ending.

Besides not addressing what all these passionate fans hated about the ending, you mean?


They did, hence the reason they released the EC.

Believing that to not be addressing the complaints doesn't actually mean it didn't. It didn't change what you didn't like, sure, but that's not the same as "not addressing" them.

#142
KiwiQuiche

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Pffft ahaha I admit that made me snort PMC XD

And kinda accurate lol


#143
David7204

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DLC is not a magic paintbrush that can be used to fix any problems with the story.

#144
Clayless

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

Only my imagination? The reactions of many others rebuke that assumption.

Maybe you should research your own claims then since yours is obviously superior.


No they don't, I cannot stress that enough.

And what claims? Saying that the things you posted weren't evident in the sources you provided or that imagining something to be passive aggressive doesn't actually make it so?

PMC65 wrote...

Posted Image


Don't make up quotes about me.

Modifié par Robosexual, 24 juin 2013 - 03:43 .


#145
PMC65

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Robosexual wrote...


PMC65 wrote...

Posted Image


Don't make up quotes about me.


I apologize ... it was simply meant to lighten the mood. I will add a note just so that no one assumes you wrote that. Cheers!

#146
KiwiQuiche

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Robosexual wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Only my imagination? The reactions of many others rebuke that assumption.

Maybe you should research your own claims then since yours is obviously superior.


No they don't, I cannot stress that enough.

And what claims? Saying that the things you posted weren't evident in the sources you provided or that imagining something to be passive aggressive doesn't actually make it so?


Yes it does. You do realize something is considered offensive when someone is offended, not before?

...Dude, that's my point. You missed it. Again.

And no need to be snappish at PMC, they were just trying to lighten the mood.

#147
Bourne Endeavor

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Eterna5 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I find it weird how the Last of us has an ending that is arguably worse than ME3's and yet people herald it as the best game of this generation.

Guess Bioware fans are just weird. 


Or the fact that those are two separate games


So what? Principle is the same. Tons of emotional investment, then a sudden and unfullfilling ending. 


Except for the fact that it was a fullfilling and emotional ending for the players, where the ME3 endings didn't do that for them


Not really. Joel dooms humanity because he is too selfish to lose another daughter, then he lies to that daughters face because he knows she would have sacrificed herself. Then they proceed to live in a hovel for the rest of their lives.

I mean I liked it, but it wasn't really a feel good ending. 


Spoilers, bro. Warn people, as I am about to. SPOILERS FOR LAST OF US ENDING




First, there is no proof of a cure, nor that it would work. The Fireflyers hinged hope on a speculative miracle and when desperate, hope can lead to irrationality, a flaw Joel was equally susceptible to. Regardless of the possibility, Ellie had become a surrogate daughter to him; their emotional growth being a focal point of the story. He could not abandon, losing his daughter all over again.

Was it selfish? Undoubtedly, but that is the mastery of the scene. Human beings are flawed and often victim of their own emotion. Under the circumstances, with no way to be certain, Joel acted with a father's instinct. I can tell you now were it my daughter, I would wage the bloodiest war imaginable if it meant saving her life. She's my girl and nothing short of death will stop me.

Is that rational? No, not in the slightest. But it is human.

SPOILERS HAVE ENDED


ME3's ending lacks even the semblance of emotion. We spend the conclusion talking to a character introduced a mere five minutes ago, who is subsequently revealed to be the primary antagonist and our only salvation comes by him allowing it. The narrative provides no context, explanation or reason why, we simply have to accept the logic, or lack thereof, thrown our way.

Both are grim, but Last of Us actually know what matters - the characters and the story. ME3 forgot that.

#148
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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David7204 wrote...

DLC is not a magic paintbrush that can be used to fix any problems with the story.


True enough.

Perhaps expansions have been known to change a lot, but I've yet to play a DLC in any game during this whole "generation" of games that was that impactful on the storyline. It's mostly theme park level content and fluff.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 24 juin 2013 - 03:53 .


#149
Iakus

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Robosexual wrote...

It actually got directly addressed, as you gain the ability to talk about them in more depth and even refuse them in the EC.

 

Oh, goody, we get to talk about these atrocities and get some really vague answers about them ("Organic energy?  really?) and you still have to choose one or watch teh galaxy die.

Take that, fans!


They never said they would be changing the endings. They said they are addressing the complaints and are releasing the EC in direct response to them. Addressing the complaints doesn't mean changing the ending.


So what does it mean?

I mean, besides "Please hold onto your copies of the games so GameStop will stop being inundated by used copies.  You're calling into question out claims that the game is awesome"

Besides not addressing what all these passionate fans hated about the ending, you mean?


They did, hence the reason they released the EC.


Again, it's the exact same endings, only more detailed.  The same needless tragedy, the same morally repugnant chocies.  These were not addressed at all, besides giving Shepard an opportunity to say "These choices are morally repugnant" 

If this is Bioware's concept of responding to fan criticism, they're not going to have many fans left before too long.

Believing that to not be addressing the complaints doesn't actually mean it didn't. It didn't change what you didn't like, sure, but that's not the same as "not addressing" them.


The actions are the same.  The context is the same, The outcomes are the same.

The problems were not addressed.

#150
xlegionx

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David7204 wrote...

DLC is not a magic paintbrush that can be used to fix any problems with the story.


Posted Image