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At what point did it become clear to you that there was no hope for redeeming the endings?


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#176
DirtyPhoenix

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Astartes Marine wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

Aaaannnd...that's another game ending Eterna5 has spoiled for me.  Jackass.  <_<


As for the actual topic, when the credits rolled and it hit me that BioWare released the game apparently believing that what they released was perfectly fine and how it took a fairly loud backlash from fans for them to do anything about it.


Out of curiosity, what was the other one? 

Bioshock Infinite.  Please for the love of anything sacred just use spoiler tags/warnings. 


Oh dear lord... those are the two games I got spoiled here too. Since ME3 debacle BSN has taken on this weird habit of comparing ME3's endings to other games and in the process ruining those as well.

#177
BattleCop88

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Man, reading Robosexual's posts sometimes make me wonder whether he's paid. EA has been known to do that. I just hope he doesn't convince BW to continue down the same pseudo-intellectual bs path.

On topic: Like others, I knew I should abandon hope after analyzing their PR responses and press releases.

#178
FlamingBoy

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When the media organizations that exist to protect consumers started throwing words like "entitled" and "spoiled" so casually (and, disgracefully, with out shame), is when I developed major concern.

Then when Ray Muzyka announced that the extended cut would be tempered with the "integrity" of the work is when I knew it was dead.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 24 juin 2013 - 07:32 .


#179
BattleCop88

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FlamingBoy wrote...

When the media organizations that exist to protect consumers started throwing words like "entitled" and "spoiled" so casually (and, disgracefully, with out shame), is when I developed major concern.

Then when Ray Muzyka announced that the extended cut would be tempered with the "integrity" of the work is when I knew it was dead.

I never realized how bad video game journalism was until those statements were made. Strange, huh. How they're promoting the collapse of the only industry that would allow them employment. If IGN gets cut, who would hire Colin Moriarty?

If they didn't want our money, why didn't they just say so? Of course we'll let them drop out of the industry to become the starving artist they so desperately want to be. After all, only the smuggest hipsters can enjoy their endings, so that must be the goal. Maybe they will finally retire down the street from that warehouse where they throw the raves. 

#180
FlamingBoy

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It wasn't just IGN, it was widespread. However as a positive of this controversy, I have yet to see a disgrace of journalism on par with what happen with me3. They seem to have cleaned up their act a bit.

News organizations exist to protect consumers and their interest, not "artists" interest.
The thing is not so much the issue of IGN not allowed to have an opinion. But to rail so hard against the people that read there website (vocal minority or not) and at the same time have their website as a walking billboard to mass effect 3....


Lets just say the whole thing stank....

#181
Cainhurst Crow

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You know, I'd argue about how the mentality of you two seem to have when it comes to how people should react to hyper-out of control behavior from gamers are just as toxic and poisonous as the journalism that you two so despise.

But that would be fighting, on the internet. Which is just 1 step below trying to have a serious conversation with a cat in terms of productiveness or wise decision making.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 24 juin 2013 - 08:03 .


#182
FlamingBoy

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know, I'd argue about how the mentality of you two seem to have when it comes to how people should react to hyper-out of control behavior from gamers are just as toxic and poisonous as the journalism that you two so despise.

But that would be fighting, on the internet. Which is just 1 step below trying to have a serious conversation with a cat in terms of productiveness or wise decision making.


I can be toxic, I am a consumer there is no expectation for me to be anything but what I am.

Journalism is held in much higher regard. Hence the standards are higher.

#183
Rhayak

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Looking back, i started having bad feelings when Liara first mentioned a "weapon that can kill all Reapers" back on mars, on my very first playthrough.

#184
Guest_Fandango_*

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I held out hope that the great writers at Bioware could rescue the trilogy from the wretched work of Mac and Cheese right up until the EC was released. They couldn't!

#185
Cainhurst Crow

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FlamingBoy wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know, I'd argue about how the mentality of you two seem to have when it comes to how people should react to hyper-out of control behavior from gamers are just as toxic and poisonous as the journalism that you two so despise.

But that would be fighting, on the internet. Which is just 1 step below trying to have a serious conversation with a cat in terms of productiveness or wise decision making.


I can be toxic, I am a consumer there is no expectation for me to be anything but what I am.

Journalism is held in much higher regard. Hence the standards are higher.


But both of you have power, and a responsibility in how you behave and use your power.

And what I saw, during those first months of the controvery, was fans disregarding all responsibility to not let their rage make them loose control of themselves, and to respect their fellow fans who may not agree with them. I saw fans decide that it was okay to act like total ****s, as long as they were angry when they did it. I saw them basically say "game developers have no rights to say what will or won't be in my game, all that matters is me, me, me and whether I get what I want."

All fair and good, you paid money for your product, you should expect some say in it. But what happened went beyond that. It went to fans should have all the say in what happens, and the devs should have no say in what is in their product. It's died down a lot now, but that was the general consensus in the boards about what should be done about mass effect. People were willing to screw over their fellow fans as long as they got an ending that they liked, and that arguement broke out every time some jerk made a destroy-centric fan-ending youtube vid. Basically, it was a time of ****ty behavior from both journalism, and from fans alike, and all I can do is shake my head, and feel like this.

Image IPB

#186
FlamingBoy

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As I write this your image is very distracting :P

How you or I behave is held to a lesser standard. We have the right to "rage" and disrespect each other, and lets face it both sides dished out there fair share of frothing at the mouth.

But journalism can't do this,  calling people "entitled" when your in the important position of giving information to the masses.... its a disgrace to the profession, to try and shame people like that. Journalism works in the favor of the consumer, the pursuit of truth. They do not work for the "artists" or the publishers. They do not have the right to have an opinion that "froths at the mouth" the profession must be above that.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 24 juin 2013 - 08:19 .


#187
Wolfva2

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know, I'd argue about how the mentality of you two seem to have when it comes to how people should react to hyper-out of control behavior from gamers are just as toxic and poisonous as the journalism that you two so despise.

But that would be fighting, on the internet. Which is just 1 step below trying to have a serious conversation with a cat in terms of productiveness or wise decision making.


Well, to be honest, at least the cat will act like it's paying attention.  Up to the point it starts licking it's balls. 

#188
Farangbaa

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@Darth Brotarian

Have you ever played an MMO? All forums of all MMO's are exactly like what you say.

-Class X = OP. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP playing
-Class Y = underpowered. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP Playing
-Class XYZ all suck. You are bad developers, you suck at writing anything. I will STOP playing unless you change this and that and this and that. 
-I expected soooooooooo much of this game, but it SUCKS IMMENSELY. CHANGE IT OR I WILL QUIT PLAYING.

Coupled with various "I have quit playing because: "  threads, in which the poster will, sometimes for weeks/months, attack anyone who likes the game, trying to convince them that the game sucks and everybody should stop playing.

Gamer's attitudes are atrocious, horrible, and just downright pathetic.

Modifié par Psychevore, 24 juin 2013 - 08:45 .


#189
Yestare7

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Psychevore wrote...

@Darth Brotarian

Have you ever played an MMO? All forums of all MMO's are exactly like what you say.

-Class X = OP. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP playing
-Class Y = underpowered. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP Playing
-Class XYZ all suck. You are bad developers, you suck at writing anything. I will STOP playing.
-I expected soooooooooo much of this game, but it SUCKS IMMENSELY. CHANGE IT OR I WILL QUIT PLAYING.

And any variants.



LOL, true

#190
Wolfva2

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Psychevore wrote...

@Darth Brotarian

Have you ever played an MMO? All forums of all MMO's are exactly like what you say.

-Class X = OP. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP playing
-Class Y = underpowered. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP Playing
-Class XYZ all suck. You are bad developers, you suck at writing anything. I will STOP playing unless you change this and that and this and that. 
-I expected soooooooooo much of this game, but it SUCKS IMMENSELY. CHANGE IT OR I WILL QUIT PLAYING.

Coupled with various "I have quit playing because: "  threads, in which the poster will, sometimes for weeks/months, attack anyone who likes the game, trying to convince them that the game sucks and everybody should stop playing.

Gamer's attitudes are atrocious, horrible, and just downright pathetic.


Heh; long long ago I penned what I called 'The Gamer's guide to balance'.  <ahem>

Anything which allows YOU to eke out the barest of victories against me is horribly overpowered and MUST be nerfed IMMEDIATELY or else the game is DOOOMED! DOOOMED I say!  
Anything which allows ME to effortlessly and completely destroy you is working as intended.

#191
Maxster_

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Wolfva2 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

@Darth Brotarian

Have you ever played an MMO? All forums of all MMO's are exactly like what you say.

-Class X = OP. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP playing
-Class Y = underpowered. You HAVE to CHANGE this or I WILL STOP Playing
-Class XYZ all suck. You are bad developers, you suck at writing anything. I will STOP playing unless you change this and that and this and that. 
-I expected soooooooooo much of this game, but it SUCKS IMMENSELY. CHANGE IT OR I WILL QUIT PLAYING.

Coupled with various "I have quit playing because: "  threads, in which the poster will, sometimes for weeks/months, attack anyone who likes the game, trying to convince them that the game sucks and everybody should stop playing.

Gamer's attitudes are atrocious, horrible, and just downright pathetic.


Heh; long long ago I penned what I called 'The Gamer's guide to balance'.  <ahem>

Anything which allows YOU to eke out the barest of victories against me is horribly overpowered and MUST be nerfed IMMEDIATELY or else the game is DOOOMED! DOOOMED I say!  
Anything which allows ME to effortlessly and completely destroy you is working as intended.



Still, some MMO live for a long time, and others dying fast. And then there is SWTOR, which is utter failure because it costs too much.
And then there is EVE, which is different :D

#192
Armass81

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sigh how can you go on and on about this, its been over a year. Dont you have other things to do?

#193
FlamingBoy

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Armass81 wrote...

sigh how can you go on and on about this, its been over a year. Dont you have other things to do?

Lets make a deal
I will let you do what you want to do with your time with out criticism, and you will let me do what I want to do with my time with out criticism.

Isn't communication glorious :)

#194
Farangbaa

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FlamingBoy wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

sigh how can you go on and on about this, its been over a year. Dont you have other things to do?

Lets make a deal
I will let you do what you want to do with your time with out criticism, and you will let me do what I want to do with my time with out criticism.

Isn't communication glorious :)


How about you just accept that ME3 is working as intended? 

You might not like what is intended, but for God's sake: move on.

#195
FlamingBoy

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Psychevore wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

sigh how can you go on and on about this, its been over a year. Dont you have other things to do?

Lets make a deal
I will let you do what you want to do with your time with out criticism, and you will let me do what I want to do with my time with out criticism.

Isn't communication glorious :)


How about you just accept that ME3 is working as intended? 

You might not like what is intended, but for God's sake: move on.


Your right, I can do whatever I want with my time.
Thanks :)

#196
MassivelyEffective0730

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Psychevore wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

sigh how can you go on and on about this, its been over a year. Dont you have other things to do?

Lets make a deal
I will let you do what you want to do with your time with out criticism, and you will let me do what I want to do with my time with out criticism.

Isn't communication glorious :)


How about you just accept that ME3 is working as intended? 

You might not like what is intended, but for God's sake: move on.


You're right that people are speculating about the game.

You're wrong in what people are speculating about. 

I'm not going to move on. You move on. If it bothers you so much: move on. Because I'm staying.

If you don't want to move on, I suggest you nut up and agree to disagree. Though from the prior post, I doubt that's possible for you.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 24 juin 2013 - 11:37 .


#197
Guest_Trust_*

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xlegionx wrote...

David7204 wrote...

DLC is not a magic paintbrush that can be used to fix any problems with the story.


Image IPB

I wish people would stop using this gif.

Modifié par I1 Trust, 24 juin 2013 - 11:54 .


#198
Ieldra

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In response to the original question:

Leaving aside the question whether ME3's ending is really irredeemable or not from a reasonably objective viewpoint, and regardless that ending options exist I can choose with a reasonable level of mental effort at interpreation, it does still leave a bad taste in my mouth.

The reasons for that, however, are not so easy to determine. Is it because the OE even existed which I found so depressing? Is it because of the thematic inconsistencies in the Synthesis ending? Because of the forced sacrifice theme? Because of the fact that the EC is sugaring up the endings (which is appreciated) but doing not so much for consistency? Because the trilogy started out as a reasonably good SF story and then veered off to deal with "essences of species" and "soul cannons"? Because the ending expects me to put my faith in ME's god analogue who is also the Bigger Bad of this story?

Which of all these things are objective flaws, which contribute to my emotional dissatisfaction? I find this not easy to decipher. The ME3 endings have a history that does not leave my opinion of the final version untouched.

In hindsight, there were four defining moments in my experience of ME3's story, which made me increasingly realize that it wasn't a a story written for me.

The first one was at Thane's deathbed, when I couldn't opt out of the line "You'll not be alone long". That was when I realized my protagonist wasn't my character any longer.

The second one was when unconscious Shepard started floating upwards on that platform and came face to face with....the god-analogue of the MEU. The aesthetics of the scene are suggestive, and I felt the game kick me with the message "You mere human cannot hope to win. You need the help of a higher power."

The third one was when the Catalyst said "I control the Reapers", when I realized that I wouldn't only have to put my faith in a god-analogue, no, I had to put my faith in an *evil* god-analogue. Never mind that the terms "good" and "evil" cannot be reasonably applied to the Catalyst, that's how it came across on an emotional level.

The fourth one was when I realized that whatever I chose, I ended up creating a universe which could be described as a luddite's dream (in the original endings).

So what do all of these have in common? They all allude to religious themes (the last one alludes to Ragnarök). So asked "What did the most damage to ME3's endings" (leaving aside the question of whether they're really irredeemable) my answer is: religion did. Religious themes that were forced into a classic SF story, the attempt to use the "higher power" allusion to exact unwarranted trust from the protagonist, a dark age defined as the desirable post-Ragnarök renewal, the barely masked idea of the protagonist "sacrificing their soul" in Synthesis, the premonition of death and the dreams.

Did this make the ending irredeemable? Maybe not from an objective viewpoint, though epic storytelling flaws do exist. What it did, however, was to make the ME trilogy "not my story" on a fundamental level, and the fact that the story promoted so many traditionalist stereotypes didn't help at all. I fought this by writing up my own interpretations, reinterpreting much of the BS in more appropriate terms. One of the results is my Synthesis compendium thread. But in spite of that, and in spite of the EC which gave me an outcome I could identify with, ME3's endings still leave a bad taste in my mouth, and the blame for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the religious themes.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2013 - 12:00 .


#199
NeonFlux117

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For me it was after the EC. Prior to the EC with all the evidence and rumors of a certain theory that shall not be named, I though BioWare had the ballz to indoctrinate a fairly large number of their player base, and the EC was going to truly extend the ending, or endgame, but alas BioWare failed hard. The failure of ME3 ending and it's handling after the fact, I think is very indicative of where the company is heading.

In short. It don't look good bioware. It don't look good.

#200
WolfyZA

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brettc893 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

brettc893 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I find it weird how the Last of us has an ending that is arguably worse than ME3's and yet people herald as the best game of this generation.


Well that's absolute bull**** that hurts my brain to even look at, but alright.


It has a pretty grim end dude. It is rather emotionally unfulfilling, just like ME3. 


Oh right on, totally.

SPOILERS FOR THE LAST OF US DO NOT LOOK UNLESS READY

I AM WARNING YOU


A broken barbaric man selfishly choosing the life of the young girl whom he sees as a replacement for the daughter he lost over the survival of the entire human race is not only bad writing, but hilariously terrible character development, I mean, it's not as though you watched their incredibly realistic and touching relationship evolve over the course of 20 hours. Never mind that it gives the title of the game meaning. It's also completely comparable to the nonsensical cluster**** that was ME3 .

/Blatant Sarcasm 


Most people missed the point of the last of us. Why save the human race when they tried to kill both Joel and Ellie numberous times. The human race didnt deserved saving from my point of view.