155 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

You don't think people can tell when their colleges don't trust them and become irritated or resentful?

.  They can still treat each other well.  

[David7204]

Not well enough. Nowhere near as well as people who don't have those issues.

[iOnlySignIn]

David7204 wrote...

'Maciavellianism' means you treat every person like garbage.

'Heroism' means you treat some people like garbage.

What country are you from? Its future looks grim.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Not well enough. Nowhere near as well as people who don't have those issues.

.  If it is to their advantage to cooperate, despite personal animosity they should get along just fine.

[David7204]

Okay, that was a poor example. I was using the terms in the context of the discussion with ''Maciavellianism'' as shorthand for cyanism-suspicion-peoplesuckism.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not well enough. Nowhere near as well as people who don't have those issues.

.  If it is to their advantage to cooperate, despite personal animosity they should get along just fine.

'Just fine' doesn't cut it. The 'just fine' person is going to lose to the 'exceptional' person every time.

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not well enough. Nowhere near as well as people who don't have those issues.

.  If it is to their advantage to cooperate, despite personal animosity they should get along just fine.

Sounds like the affection system in DA 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not well enough. Nowhere near as well as people who don't have those issues.

.  If it is to their advantage to cooperate, despite personal animosity they should get along just fine.

'Just fine' doesn't cut it. The 'just fine' person is going to lose to the 'exceptional' person every time.

.  That flies in the face of history so blatantly Its not even worth disproving.

[AresKeith]

AresKeith wrote...

David what do know about the Bhelen vs Harrowmont choice in DA:O?

Someone already post a small summary about them in the thread

[David7204]

That is completely ridiculous to the point of being moronic. You're basically just proclaiming that trust and cooperation between anyone is always bad and will always fail. Which is just completely stupid and backed up by a very silly sense of history. 

Modifié par David7204, 27 juin 2013 - 12:05 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

That is completely ridiculous to the point of being moronic. You're basically just proclaiming that trust and cooperation between anyone is always bad and will always fail. Which is just completely stupid and backed up by a very silly sense of history. 

.  You truly are a master at twisting words into arguments that Im not making.

You cannot even come up with a defense of your points so you change what I said.  This exchange is over, better luck next time.

[Xilizhra]

FYI, Machiavelli was a staunch republican and The Prince was satire. Taking its advice as gospel is probably a bad idea.

More on topic, I'd be less annoyed by the Orzammar decision if we got to actually learn about their policies from sources other than the incredibly biased criers. as mentioned previously. As for heroism... I'd like to say something, but I'm not entirely sure where the discussion is right now.

[David7204]

Pretty much dead, it looks like.

That's an interesting point of getting information from multiple sources. Although I'd prefer it not be equal just for the sake of being equal. I wasn't really fond of how every city in Skyrim has one guy who hates their side and likes the opposite side. It stopped being compelling and starting having a 'checklist' feel very quickly.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juin 2013 - 12:21 .

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much dead, it looks like.

That's an interesting point of getting information from multiple sources. Although I'd prefer it not be equal just for the sake of being equal.

Erm, what do you mean?

I wasn't really fond of how every city in Skyrim has one guy who hates
their side and likes the opposite side. It stopped being compelling and
starting having a 'checklist' feel very quickly.

I think that's supposed to be an in-game representation of the dissenters who'll be in every city even if the majority is against them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

FYI, Machiavelli was a staunch republican and The Prince was satire. Taking its advice as gospel is probably a bad idea.

More on topic, I'd be less annoyed by the Orzammar decision if we got to actually learn about their policies from sources other than the incredibly biased criers. as mentioned previously. As for heroism... I'd like to say something, but I'm not entirely sure where the discussion is right now.

Bhelen - A ruthless, treacherous but "progressive" king who's willing to kill anyone to gain power and to enable trading with the outer world (freeing dwarves of an old fear)

Harrowmont - A conservative, honorable, reliable but powerless king who's continuing Orzammar's customs, ultimately leading the city to its downfall 

Modifié par AresKeith, 27 juin 2013 - 12:23 .

[Ash Wind]

I can agree with the OPs point. A wise person once wrote: The Road to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions.

It would give the DA universe a more realistic and organic feel if every now and then, the best intentions result in bad things. Of course, the opposite is also true, it is nice to see bad choices turn out well.

But I certainly wouldn't want most choices to give an unexpected ending, that would fly in the face of shaping your game world, but still, its nice when certain circumstances have an unexpected result.

The appeal of Orzammar choice is that the 'bad' choice is Bhelen, he's a ******, but in my opinion, it turns out better for the Dwarves.

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

FYI, Machiavelli was a staunch republican and The Prince was satire. Taking its advice as gospel is probably a bad idea.

More on topic, I'd be less annoyed by the Orzammar decision if we got to actually learn about their policies from sources other than the incredibly biased criers. as mentioned previously. As for heroism... I'd like to say something, but I'm not entirely sure where the discussion is right now.

Bhelen - A ruthless, treacherous but "progressive" king who's willing to kill anyone to gain power and to enable trading with the outer world (freeing dwarves of an old fear)

Harrowmont - A conservative, honorable, reliable but powerless king who's continuing Orzammar's customs, ultimately leading the city to its downfall 

It was the caste issue I was most concerned with, which I never thought was broght up quite well enough. Of course, I don't consider Harrowmont's continuation of said system to be honorable, and I believe it stains all other possible honor he might have.

[David7204]

Xilizhra wrote...

Erm, what do you mean?

Just that you don't need 50% of the characters saying something is good and 50% saying it's bad. It's okay for there to be bias.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juin 2013 - 12:35 .

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Erm, what do you mean?

Just that you don't need 50% of the characters saying something is good and 50% saying it's bad. It's okay for there to be bias.

Presumably bias towards the "heroic" end.

[David7204]

Well, not necessarily. I don't think I'd have a problem with a population overwhelmingly urging the protagonist to do one thing when the 'right' choice is clearly something else. Although I suppose that could very easily make the player hate the population for being stupid or petty if the developer wasn't careful.

Perhaps if the protagonist knew something that changes the situation, but can't tell or convince everyone else for some reason.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juin 2013 - 12:41 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

FYI, Machiavelli was a staunch republican and The Prince was satire. Taking its advice as gospel is probably a bad idea.

More on topic, I'd be less annoyed by the Orzammar decision if we got to actually learn about their policies from sources other than the incredibly biased criers. as mentioned previously. As for heroism... I'd like to say something, but I'm not entirely sure where the discussion is right now.

Bhelen - A ruthless, treacherous but "progressive" king who's willing to kill anyone to gain power and to enable trading with the outer world (freeing dwarves of an old fear)

Harrowmont - A conservative, honorable, reliable but powerless king who's continuing Orzammar's customs, ultimately leading the city to its downfall 

It was the caste issue I was most concerned with, which I never thought was broght up quite well enough. Of course, I don't consider Harrowmont's continuation of said system to be honorable, and I believe it stains all other possible honor he might have.

Both choices benefit the Warden, but which choice benefits the Dwarfs more

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Well, not necessarily. I don't think I'd have a problem with a population overwhelming urging the protagonist to do one thing when the 'right' choice is clearly something else.

How often do you want their to be a "right" choice?

[David7204]

That depends on the story. If the story is something like...I dunno...Kane and Lynch, I'm perfectly fine with there never being a right choice.

However, for a story with clear heroic themes that promises a powerful, competent protagonist and choices that matter...I want a right choice almost always.

[Steelcan]

The Prince wasn't a satire, Machiavelli simply believed that republics were ideal, he mentions this in the Prince. The Prince is a guideline to how to rule effectively as a prince. Machiavelli was too smart to right a satire that criticized his employers who had just exiled him. It was more along the lines of political brown nosing than satire. Regardless the points he raises are still valid.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

That depends on the story. If the story is something like...I dunno...Kane and Lynch, I'm perfectly fine with there never being a right choice.

However, for a story with clear heroic themes that promises a powerful, competent protagonist and choices that matter...I want a right choice almost always.

.  There are right choices, theres usually two.