369 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Better comparisson might be if the Phillipines were nuked (and by nuked I mean completely destroyed, scoured of all life) without warning to end the war, and nobody mourned or even commented on it.

We'd have to upgrade the threat to the US a bit for this to make sense. Unless it's Japan with the super-weapons in the hypothetical, burning the life from Taiwan, Saipan, Okinawa, and so forth. Even then, the US only threatened political changes, not total extermination.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2013 - 04:47 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

The slides.  Every single person (plus plant life) has the glowing green effect. Everyone is seen happy.  EDI is all bright and optimistic, not mentioning any troubles about it.  ANd in teh memorial scene, Javik is standing there with everyone else.  WIth glowing green eyes.

Yeah, he looks really happy about the situation.

[Kel Riever]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Better comparisson might be if the Phillipines were nuked (and by nuked I mean completely destroyed, scoured of all life) without warning to end the war, and nobody mourned or even commented on it.

We'd have to upgrade the threat to the US a bit for this to make sense. Unless it's Japan with the super-weapons in the hypothetical, burning the life from Taiwan, Saipan, Okinawa, and so forth. Even then, the US only threatened political changes, not total extermination.

Personally, I don't understand why we didn't Synthesise with Japan at the end of World War II.  We could have simply moved half of the entire population of Japan to mainland USA and replaced them with a like number of citizens all in a span of 2 years.  It would really have worked out great for everyone!

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Everyone's going about their business in the slides. They're either okay with it, or cowed into submission.  Is either okay? 

Is there any way to show what you want the Control slides to show without being prescriptive? The moment you show Reapers hanging overhead with uncertain people below, you've already told Control people they aren't allowed to headcanon that the Reapers don't play an active role in the galaxy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

The slides.  Every single person (plus plant life) has the glowing green effect. Everyone is seen happy.  EDI is all bright and optimistic, not mentioning any troubles about it.  ANd in teh memorial scene, Javik is standing there with everyone else.  WIth glowing green eyes.

Yeah, he looks really happy about the situation.

*snip*

As if Javik were a particularly expressive individual to begin with.

I'd make a pretty strong wager he looks about the same in the other epilogues too -- you know, like everything else does.

[Coyotebay]

The best ending I think would have been like how they ended ME2, where your decisions during the battle for Earth determine the fate of your comrades, but the final outcome is the same - the destruction of the Reapers.  The three choices are manipulative, with your choice causing Shepherd, or EDI/Legion to die.  So your final decision can be swayed not so much by how much you care about what happens to the galaxy, but by how much you care about the survival of characters you know.  The sacrifices of the choices themselves are also questionable.  Why can't you get the best of both worlds if Shepard assumes control of the Reapers?  Can't he order them to shut down so the Alliance can kill them with conventional weapons?  That would save the mass relays.  Why  can't Shepard just toss a tissue sample into the beam for the synthesis ending?  It just needs a sample of his DNA, why does it need a whole body's worth?  A handful of cells should suffice.  Why does Shepard have to die and his mind melded with the Catalyst, why can't s/he just interface with it externally and give commands?  "Reapers, stand down!"  Why can't s/he set off the death ray with a timed explosive, instead of shooting at it point-blank?

I disagree that the destruction ending counts as a genocidal crime.  The Reapers only exist to destroy, so it's self defense.  And without the Crucible, the Alliance would have no choice but to destroy all the Reapers conventionally if they could pull it off.  The synthesis ending might be nothing more than an acceleration toward the inevitable path that would have happened if the Reapers would have left organics alone all these millions of years, during which time there surely would have been some form of organi/synthetic evolution.

Modifié par Coyotebay, 27 juin 2013 - 04:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

Coyotebay wrote...
I disagree that the destruction ending counts as a genocidal crime.  The Reapers only exist to destroy, so it's self defense. 

Mostly when people talk about genocide, they are referring to the geth's destruction. Which is still wrong.

[Coyotebay]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Coyotebay wrote...
I disagree that the destruction ending counts as a genocidal crime.  The Reapers only exist to destroy, so it's self defense. 

Mostly when people talk about genocide, they are referring to the geth's destruction. Which is still wrong.

Ah my bad.  Yes, if they are still alive at the end, it's wrong.  That's why I didn't choose destruction ending, I wouldn't kill EDI.  (Geth weren't in my finale)

[SpamBot2000]

With all the emphasis on the war crime aspects of the ending and the EC, let's not lose sight of the fact that they were pretty damn clumsy as well. Why are we suddenly totally focused on the Reaper King's agenda, instead of our own? The player character's agenda was totally displaced at the ending. A ****ton of fluff like the EC ain't gonna change that fact. We never wanted to change the Universe. We liked the Universe fine.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 27 juin 2013 - 05:05 .

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

As if Javik were a particularly expressive individual to begin with.

I'd make a pretty strong wager he looks about the same in the other epilogues too -- you know, like everything else does.

Eh, he shows anger, composure, and slight amusement in the game. Certainly more than that blank stare.

Oddly enough, the other endings don't show his face at all. I'm certain you're right about it all being the same on a technical level (asset reuse!), but Synthesis is the only one that gets to enjoy that delightfully empty gaze.

[CronoDragoon]

Coyotebay wrote...

Ah my bad.  Yes, if they are still alive at the end, it's wrong.  That's why I didn't choose destruction ending, I wouldn't kill EDI.  (Geth weren't in my finale)

It's wrong even if they are destroyed by the Crucible. If you examine expanded definitions and explanations of genocide - ie essays more sophisticated than dictionary.com - collateral damage from attacking military targets is excluded. That pretty much describes what happens to the geth to a T. It doesn't mean Destroy isn't morally problematic, it just means people use the wrong word to describe the action.

[Coyotebay]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

With all the emphasis on the war crime aspects of the ending and the EC, let's not lose sight of the fact that they were pretty damn clumsy as well. Why are we suddenly totally focused on the Reaper King's agenda, instead of our own? The player character's agenda was totally displaced at the ending. A ****ton of fluff like the EC ain't gonna change that fact. We never wanted to change the Universe. We liked the Universe fine.

Yes, they make it about star kid's agenda when you are arbitrarily told that you get to destroy the Reapers but only if you are okay with destroying all other innocent synthetic life.  It's a forced moral choice where there really shouldn't be one.

Modifié par Coyotebay, 27 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, he shows anger, composure, and slight amusement in the game. Certainly more than that blank stare.

So, like I said, not a particularly expressive individual.

"Composure" is as good as nothing (that you had to pass it for an emotion just to give him one says a lot).

Oddly enough, the other endings don't show his face at all. I'm certain you're right about it all being the same on a technical level (asset reuse!), but Synthesis is the only one that gets to enjoy that delightfully empty gaze.

Yes, because that is his normal expression!

If there's one ending that can't win, it's Sync. It's always either too much, or not enough. It's "why is he not smiling?!?" now. It would be "why is he smiling?? that's OOC!" otherwise. Ya truly can't win with this ending.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 27 juin 2013 - 05:18 .

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ya truly can't win with this ending.

The way it's presented? Nah, you really can't.

And, just to be clear, that doesn't say anything about my position on tech advancement or physiological modification.

[Deathsaurer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

 Also, showing the quarians still in their suits is itself bittersweet, knowing with the geth they'd be walking around Rannoch without them by now.

Not really. The Quarians still have their suits, masks and all, in the Control ending. In fact there are a couple of Reapers on Rannoch standing between the Quarian city and the Geth watching the Geth. Only Synthesis has them without the masks living with the Geth.

[CronoDragoon]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Not really. The Quarians still have their suits, masks and all, in the Control ending. In fact there are a couple of Reapers on Rannoch standing between the Quarian city and the Geth watching the Geth. Only Synthesis has them without the masks living with the Geth.

That's meta-gaming. When I first played through Destroy EC without knowledge of the other endings, the quarian slide was bittersweet.

[Deathsaurer]

Most of this thread is meta gaming. If you felt it was bittersweet it was because you assumed something. Nothing wrong with that, lord knows everyone else seems to do it.

[CronoDragoon]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Most of this thread is meta gaming. If you felt it was bittersweet it was because you assumed something. Nothing wrong with that, lord knows everyone else seems to do it.

Yes, it was because I assumed something, but the last few pages of this thread are about how the EC epilogue slides made you feel, so it's relevant to the discussion.

[Deathsaurer]

I said there was nothing wrong with it.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

The slides.  Every single person (plus plant life) has the glowing green effect. Everyone is seen happy.  EDI is all bright and optimistic, not mentioning any troubles about it.  ANd in teh memorial scene, Javik is standing there with everyone else.  WIth glowing green eyes.

Yeah, he looks really happy about the situation.

Given that's SHepard's memorial, he looks about as happy as everyone else is the scene. 

And I can't help but notice a distinct lack of airlock.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Everyone's going about their business in the slides. They're either okay with it, or cowed into submission.  Is either okay? 

Is there any way to show what you want the Control slides to show without being prescriptive? The moment you show Reapers hanging overhead with uncertain people below, you've already told Control people they aren't allowed to headcanon that the Reapers don't play an active role in the galaxy.

Bah, the endings are already prescriptive, as you've noticed.  There's no option to not have the Reapers involve themselves in galactic society.

But if you're going to force that point, at least show it's not all skittles and beer.  People will be frightened.  People will fight back against the "synthetic oppressors" (or whatever)  You really think Wreav is going to stand for this?  How about people who lost fiends, family and loved ones to the Reapers?

HEck some societies might just pack up and flee to some unknown corner of the galaxy and go "off the grid" 

And this is just with "Paragon Shepalyst"

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Given that's SHepard's memorial, he looks about as happy as everyone else is the scene.  

Actually, all points considering, he probably looks the happiest out of them all. 

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

But if you're going to force that point, at least show it's not all skittles and beer.  People will be frightened.  People will fight back against the "synthetic oppressors" (or whatever)  You really think Wreav is going to stand for this?  How about people who lost fiends, family and loved ones to the Reapers?

HEck some societies might just pack up and flee to some unknown corner of the galaxy and go "off the grid" 

And this is just with "Paragon Shepalyst"

But these are all assumptions that you are making not necessarily relevant to everyone's vision of the Control future. It sounds to me like you need everyone else to subscribe to your specific vision of a Control future. You aren't asking for questions and moral concerns to be raised; you want them answered, and you want them answered negatively.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Better comparisson might be if the Phillipines were nuked (and by nuked I mean completely destroyed, scoured of all life) without warning to end the war, and nobody mourned or even commented on it.

We'd have to upgrade the threat to the US a bit for this to make sense. Unless it's Japan with the super-weapons in the hypothetical, burning the life from Taiwan, Saipan, Okinawa, and so forth. Even then, the US only threatened political changes, not total extermination.

The morality of destroying a city in the war is someting hotly debated to this day.  How about destroying an entire nation?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

walks into thread......

adds comment...... my character's first name wasn't "Commander". They can do all sorts of things. Why couldn't they at least read a player character's first name? Oh because someone might have named them "butthead"?

The endings? Difficult choices? What difficult choices? You die, the relays explode, the Normandy crashes. What color do you want this done in? Blue, Green, or Red? Do you want the reapers still around? Then pick Blue or Green. If not pick Red. I've learned how to metagame my way throught the trilogy.

* tell Ereba to break up with Charr in ME2 -- it saves her the pain when he dies.
* shoot Rana Thanoptis -- she's indoctrinated
Little things like this. Or maybe to make things easier for choosing destroy, let the Quarians wipe out the geth. Sorry EDI.

But the EC never solved anything. It's still the same ending with sprinkles on it. Now you get a fancy slide show to shut you up. In nearly all of them: You die, the relays are "severely damaged", and the Normandy crashes. In one you get to be buried under a pile of rubble and take a gasp of air and hold your breath for all eternity. The only difference being the color on your screen. That's it. Suicide, suicide, suicide, or attempted suicide. 5 years for this. All of it ripped away in the last 5 minutes of the game.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 27 juin 2013 - 09:16 .