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The Extended Cut was released one year ago today....


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#201
CronoDragoon

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drayfish wrote...
Again: the decisions at the end of the game are in no possible way difficult


The end decision is difficult because unlike virtually every choice in the Mass Effect series, it creates conflicts within a specific moral system.

Other decisions all conform to Paragon/Renegade, which essentially means that once you have decided on a morality for your character, you already know how to respond to the situations given to you.

Take the example of a Paragon that follows deontological ethics; he will decide on the moralty of the act itself instead of the consequences. This will provide a baseline through which the player can judge situations. Of course, that's rarely necessary because most ME decisions have either a really "Paragon" or really "Renegade" choice. An exception here that comes to mind is the geth heretic decision.

The ending choice is another, because for each ending there are reasons to either shy away or be drawn towards it within a system of ethics. Each ending has Paragon reasons for picking it. Each has Renegade reasons. Since the endings are not clearly labeled into one morality type or another, you need to think about the morality of the act and the consequences. For Control; I save the geth and EDI, but the Reapers still exist. For Synthesis, I free the Reapers, but I free the Reapers. For Destroy, I destroy the geth and EDI, but I give the galaxy the chance to make peace again on its own terms, rejecting the Catalyst's racist fatalistic spiel.

To summarize, the ending choices are hard because they are less a clash of ethical systems and more an internal conflict within each ethics system.

Your argument hinges uponacceptance of the idea that the lack of grim or foreboding slides in the epilogues means that each ending is considered utopic. This is a problematic assertion for a few reasons.

1. You either think hard about the choice or you don't. If you don't, then those types of ending slides are irrelevant. If you do, then you know the possible dire implications of your choice anyway and don't need slides to confirm this.

2. Such slides do not raise moral problems so much as they prescribe to the player what their ending means. How can you raise the question of whether or not in Destroy organic/synthetic relations will work in the future without confirming the question one way or another? How can you represent the potential danger of freed Reapers in Synthesis without showing conflict or war, which less raises the question and more answers it (they are dangerous, society will not accept them, will cause wars, etc)

So I think your argument counts on the stupidity of the player. If they cannot recognize the dangers and drawbacks inherent in their ending choice, if they cannot recognize the utter loss that the geth/EDI destruction represents, or how an overpowering synthetic police force is philosophically and practically problematic, then screw em; such ending slides would be wasted on them.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 03:38 .


#202
Clayless

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Thus your argument hinges upon the stupidity of the player. If they cannot recognize the dangers and drawbacks inherent in their ending choice, if they cannot recognize the utter loss that the geth/EDI destruction represents, or how an overpowering synthetic police force is philosophically and practically problematic, then screw em; such ending slides would be wasted on them.


He seems to think that without those slides the negative effects of the choices mearly don't exist. He went as far as saying, quite contradictorily, that because of the absence of those it can deliver a "racist" message to the players.

I'm quizzing him on this, trying to find out what his point is, as that observation seems to suggest he doesn't think fiction should go against his morals. So far he's done everything he can to avoid answering, including accusing me of being a witch and trying to dismiss the very thing he brought up as "utterly irrelevant".

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Modifié par Robosexual, 28 juin 2013 - 03:27 .


#203
chris2365

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The EC made a bad situation better. Most people agree that the EC is an improvement over the original endings. How much it improved the endings is up to the individual. Personally, it took the endings from meh to decent. I can now live in peace and replay the trilogy without much difficulty.

What I still don't understand is why people complain about the Refuse ending. I clearly remember after the EC was announced that everyone wanted a Refusal ending. When it came out, people called it a slap in the face. Why? Did you expect to win? These are the Reapers we are talking about. You know, 1 Reaper was able to take on the Citadel fleet, one of the largest in the galaxy. Sure, they could have added some battle scenes and modified it to the point that with a high ems you could win with heavy casualties ( like my fan-made video), but to do that would be to throw the lore of the Reapers out of the window. Besides, you can rest easy knowing that your cycle helped a future cycle finally win, with or without the Crucible.

Modifié par chris2365, 28 juin 2013 - 03:26 .


#204
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Robosexual wrote...

drayfish wrote...

-don't like your answer therefore you never answered it-


That's nice, but I answered your question, trying to dismiss it because you don't like the answer doesn't change anything, and your opinion on the matter doesn't change anything either.


Dude, trying to use the term 'morally grey' as some kind of currency in attempting to justify your claim that choosing between eugenic violation, genocide or totalitarian rule is somehow 'beautiful' doesn't cut it for me either I'm afraid. I mean, one could easily roll out that line in defence of any old 'solution' right?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 28 juin 2013 - 03:33 .


#205
Kel Riever

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chris2365 wrote...

....Most people agree that the EC is an improvement over the original endings. ....


According to who?  You got some stats on that?

#206
KaiserShep

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Winning the entire galaxy conventionally was never in the cards once the reapers arrived anyway. The only potential victory through conventional warfare in the game that one could reasonably expect would simply be the combined fleets successfully pushing the reapers back enough to successfully take control over the Citadel, without that awkward evacuation scene and limp into the conduit beam on high EMS, but not much more than that.

In any event, I don't see how the EC makes the ending any worse. The original endings were horrific. The relays blow up (yet somehow Shepard still lives anyway in high EMS??) and everyone is stranded in destroy, or the reapers just leave, and there's no explanation as to what the frak just happened in the other two options. Even if the EC is not assembled in the most logical way, it sure beats whatever the hell they were getting at with the original. If not for that DLC, ME3 would have zero replay value for me. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 juin 2013 - 03:46 .


#207
Clayless

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Dude, trying to use the term 'morally grey' as some kind of currency in attempting to justify your claim that choosing between eugenic violation, genocide or totalitarian rule is somehow 'beautiful' doesn't cut it for me either I'm afraid. I mean, one could easily roll out that line in defence of any old 'solution' right?


Do you agree with this part?:

"Sure. There's no "correct" choice,"

Because when asked what makes it a hard choice, that was the very first thing I said.

It really makes no difference if you disagree with me saying they're morally grey, all the choices could be black or white for you, the only thing that matters is if I answered the question: "What makes the choices hard for you?". I did, straight away, he just doesn't like the answer and is trying to spin it as though I never answered, just so he doesn't have to answer anything in return.

Modifié par Robosexual, 28 juin 2013 - 03:44 .


#208
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CronoDragoon wrote...

Thus your argument hinges upon the stupidity of the player. If they cannot recognize the dangers and drawbacks inherent in their ending choice, if they cannot recognize the utter loss that the geth/EDI destruction represents, or how an overpowering synthetic police force is philosophically and practically problematic, then screw em; such ending slides would be wasted on them.


No, no that wont do at all. You see, failing to acknowledge the destruction of the Geth in lieu of celebrating the choice that leads to their destruction is an approach that rewards the logic of the kind of cretin who would gladly make that choice for xenophobic reasons. Disgusting right?

#209
CronoDragoon

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Kel Riever wrote...

According to who?  You got some stats on that?


http://social.biowar...ndex/14226254/1

According to this poll, which is the largest one I've seen regarding the EC, the average rating for the endings based on poll responses increased from 4.9 (OEs) to 7.1(EC endings). So, most people who took this poll considered the EC a not-insignificant improvement.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 03:49 .


#210
CronoDragoon

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Fandango9641 wrote...

No, no that wont do at all. You see, failing to acknowledge the destruction of the Geth in lieu of celebrating the choice that leads to their destruction is an approach that rewards the logic of the kind of cretin who would gladly make that choice for xenophobic reasons. Disgusting right?


It rewards any logic for picking Destroy, insofar as you save the galaxy, and people are happy about that. If you didn't pick Destroy for xenophobic reasons, then a slide is unnecessary. You'll be sad anyway. If you picked it for xenophobic reasons, then there's a good chance the geth aren't around by the ending. If they are, and you still pick it because "screw AI" then a slide about the geth's destruction will have no affect on you.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 03:52 .


#211
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Robosexual wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Dude, trying to use the term 'morally grey' as some kind of currency in attempting to justify your claim that choosing between eugenic violation, genocide or totalitarian rule is somehow 'beautiful' doesn't cut it for me either I'm afraid. I mean, one could easily roll out that line in defence of any old 'solution' right?


Do you agree with this part?:

"Sure. There's no "correct" choice,"

Because when asked what makes it a hard choice, that was the very first thing I said.

It really makes no difference if you disagree with me saying they're morally grey, all the choices could be black or white for you, the only thing that matters is if I answered the question: "What makes the choices hard for you?". I did, straight away, he just doesn't like the answer and is trying to spin it as though I never answered, just so he doesn't have to answer anything in return.


Sure, but what does 'there is no correct choice' mean exactly? Moreover, even ignoring the saccharine sentimentality of those EC slides, does setting things up in such a way make that final choice easier or harder?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 28 juin 2013 - 03:59 .


#212
CronoDragoon

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Sure, but what does 'there is no correct choice' mean exactly? Does setting things up in such a way make that final choice easier or harder?


That will depend on whether or not the choices are worth saving the galaxy. If they are, then it makes the decision harder. If they are all non-starters, then the decision is easier because you just turn the game off.


All of which is by the by, when one considers the saccharine sentimentality of those EC slides. Urgh!


This implies that the only thing a player cares about is the consequences of their choice. Regardless of a slide representing it, I feel terrible about killing the geth/EDI. The EC slides only affect this indirectly by showing me what I saved, and in Destroy when Hackett talks about sacrifice, it shows EDI, reminding you what you sacrificed.

Now, I don't know about Synthesis because I haven't played it. Maybe it really is as dumbfoundingly utopic as some people suggest. But I don't see Destroy OR Control being represented as such. The Control monologues by themselves gave me pause once I heard them. "Uh, maybe Renegade Shepard isn't the best ruler for this galaxy..."

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 04:01 .


#213
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CronoDragoon wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

No, no that wont do at all. You see, failing to acknowledge the destruction of the Geth in lieu of celebrating the choice that leads to their destruction is an approach that rewards the logic of the kind of cretin who would gladly make that choice for xenophobic reasons. Disgusting right?


It rewards any logic for picking Destroy, insofar as you save the galaxy, and people are happy about that. If you didn't pick Destroy for xenophobic reasons, then a slide is unnecessary. You'll be sad anyway. If you picked it for xenophobic reasons, then there's a good chance the geth aren't around by the ending. If they are, and you still pick it because "screw AI" then a slide about the geth's destruction will have no affect on you.


Right, so championing the wholesale celebration of genocide is to make the very best case for our ending is it?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 28 juin 2013 - 04:04 .


#214
KaiserShep

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CronoDragoon wrote...
This implies that the only thing a player cares about is the consequences of their choice. Regardless of a slide representing it, I feel terrible about killing the geth/EDI. The EC slides only affect this indirectly by showing me what I saved, and in Destroy when Hackett talks about sacrifice, it shows EDI, reminding you what you sacrificed.


I've mentioned this before, but the mechanics of the epilogue for destroy is weakened in terms of this impact, if you interact with EDI as frequently as you can. She'll just be reduced to a name on the memorial wall, and no flashback of her image when Hackett mentions the people lost to beat the reapers, since she already showed up in a flashback before you go through with your choice. 

#215
chris2365

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

According to who?  You got some stats on that?


http://social.biowar...ndex/14226254/1

According to this poll, which is the largest one I've seen regarding the EC, the average rating for the endings based on poll responses increased from 4.9 (OEs) to 7.1(EC endings). So, most people who took this poll considered the EC a not-insignificant improvement.


I knew I saw those stats somewhere, just couldn't remember where. Thanks for diggging them up CronosDragoon. One good thing about the endings (both original and EC) is that there were plenty of surveys and polls done, including the one in the link. I think 2.2 points is a nice improvement, especially considering they did not change the core of the ending ( you still meet the Catalyst, Destroy still kills synthetics, etc.)

#216
CronoDragoon

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Right, so championing the wholesale celebration of genocide is to make the very best case for our ending is it?


First of all, it's not genocide, and I wish people would stop incorrectly invoking what is a very loaded term to further their agendas.

Secondly, if you mean that the ending slides portray a world in which the loss of the geth and EDI was worth everything you saved in Destroy, then yeah, that's true. Because guess what? Anyone who picked Destroy AGREES. It doesn't mean they are HAPPY about it, it just means that they considered the sacrifice worth it.

#217
KaiserShep

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I imagine destroying the entirety of the reaper race would be technically genocidal, but that's more like curing a virus, so no one cares about them. The death of the geth and EDI are not deliberate. They're simply forced with the package deal of getting rid of the pestilence.

#218
CronoDragoon

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KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine destroying the entirety of the reaper race would be technically genocidal


But it's not, because genocide does not apply against military targets, or collateral damage from military targets.

Now if people want to fabricate their own definition of genocide and spread it around, then fine, whatever.

#219
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CronoDragoon wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Right, so championing the wholesale celebration of genocide is to make the very best case for our ending is it?


First of all, it's not genocide, and I wish people would stop incorrectly invoking what is a very loaded term to further their agendas.

Secondly, if you mean that the ending slides portray a world in which the loss of the geth and EDI was worth everything you saved in Destroy, then yeah, that's true. Because guess what? Anyone who picked Destroy AGREES. It doesn't mean they are HAPPY about it, it just means that they considered the sacrifice worth it.


Astonishing - how exactly is the mass extermination of destroy not genocide?

#220
KaiserShep

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I didn't realize that being a military target was a huge differentiating factor here. I was simply going by its basic definition of the deliberate killing of a large group of people. The reapers are technically not people, but they were assumed to be sentient beings, for whatever that's worth.

Fandango9641 wrote...
Astonishing - how exactly is the mass extermination of destroy not genocide?


Consider the case of the Batarians in The Arrival. Thousands upon thousands of Batarians died when the relay was destroyed, but the objective was not to kill them; it was to stop the reapers from getting through the relay. Had the objective been to hit home with the Batarians, THEN it would be genocide. Whether or not the Batarians go extinct at that point is immaterial. It only needs to be a significant number, not the entire species. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 juin 2013 - 04:20 .


#221
CronoDragoon

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KaiserShep wrote...

I didn't realize that being a military target was a huge differentiating factor here. I was simply going by its basic definition of the deliberate killing of a large group of people. The reapers are technically not people, but they were assumed to be sentient beings, for whatever that's worth.


That's the dictionary definition, but how it's actually written in international law is much more specific:

"Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[10] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)(B)(i)) or an attack  is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)(B)(iv). Article 8(2)(B)(iv) criminalizes: Intentionally launching
an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to
civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated; Article 8(2)(B)(iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)(B) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)(B)(iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:

(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;

(B) the anticipated military advantage;

© and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (B)."

And this all only applies to civilian death. You can imagine that armed participants in the war are protected even less so. As far as I know military opposition is excluded from the definition of genocide altogether.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 04:27 .


#222
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KaiserShep wrote...

I didn't realize that being a military target was a huge differentiating factor here. I was simply going by its basic definition of the deliberate killing of a large group of people. The reapers are technically not people, but they were assumed to be sentient beings, for whatever that's worth.

Fandango9641 wrote...
Astonishing - how exactly is the mass extermination of destroy not genocide?


Consider the case of the Batarians in The Arrival. Thousands upon thousands of Batarians died when the relay was destroyed, but the objective was not to kill them; it was to stop the reapers from getting through the relay. Had the objective been to hit home with the Batarians, THEN it would be genocide. Whether or not the Batarians go extinct at that point is immaterial. It only needs to be a significant number, not the entire species. 


And again - making the choice to explicitly target and exterminate all synthetic life is not genocide how?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 28 juin 2013 - 04:28 .


#223
CronoDragoon

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Fandango9641 wrote...

And again, making the choice to explicitly target and exterminate all synthetic life is not genocide how?


Because the target is the Reapers, and because the military advantage killing the Reapers gives (winning the war) justifies the cost of the geth and EDI, which would exclude it from genocide based on proportionality, as per the definition above. Now, if Shepard came out and said, "I wanted all synthetic life gone. I was given the choice to either kill just the Reapers or all synthetic life, and I decided that I wanted all synthetics gone," then we'd be in serious genocide territory.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 juin 2013 - 04:31 .


#224
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Yeah thanks Extended Cut...for doing pretty much nothing except a picture montage...

Modifié par Official DJ Harbinger, 28 juin 2013 - 04:31 .


#225
CronoDragoon

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Note that I am not dismissing the morally problematic nature of destroying the geth and EDI. But if we're going to have a philosophical debate on this, making sure that everyone is working with the same terms is step 1.