152 réponses à ce sujet

[Tonymac]

I think the spacve hamster should be in charge when I am gone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm sure I won't. Meanwhile, my 'private special interest' group works behind the scenes doing ethically and morally questionable acts and experiments to act as a quiet sentinel against the unknown dangers and threats of the galaxy and the advancement of science and technology, both for humanity and on a broader level for the whole galaxy. Humanity is the focus of course, but I'm going to make sure the other governments and races are kept in the loop. I'm even going to train and recruit agents of other species to make similar organizations for their own species.

Oh, well then you have my full support. But the moment you start hiding stuff and pulling crap like the Illusive Man did on Horizon in ME3... I'm taking you down.

Well, I don't care about your support. You don't exist in my universe. And if you did, and did try to take me down, my people would be on you so fast you'd squirt your milk out your nose. Because I am God over my universe. You'd never have a chance.

And yes, I'm going to be doing the stuff TIM did on Horizon almost immediately.

I won't pretend what I'm doing is ethical. Nor am I going to try to justify it. But I'm going to do it because I believe I can make something better out of a subjects life for everyone else. Provided the end truly outweighs the means.

That said, not every experiment is going to be a Romany Experiment. I'm not going to hire an army of Mengele's.
Not all of my experiments are going to involve 'research' in that manner.

I'm not going to immediately resort to the most extreme methods like my predecessor. They're not off the table, but I'm not going to utilize them unless I have to.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 03:20 .

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And yes, I'm going to be doing the stuff TIM did on Horizon almost immediately.

I won't pretend what I'm doing is ethical. Nor am I going to try to justify it. But I'm going to do it because I believe I can make something better out of a subjects life for everyone else.

Wow, you already are indoctrinated without reaper help! Nice going, you truly are a deranged fool. :happy:

[KaiserShep]

The thing I don't quite get with Cerberus' tests on Horizon is that use of living subjects shouldn't really be necessary when dealing with husks. When a person is impaled on a giant freaking spike, you'd think that this person would die before it has a chance to inject nanites into his system. Putting people in gas chambers so that they are horrified before making the transition is just cartoonishly evil.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And yes, I'm going to be doing the stuff TIM did on Horizon almost immediately.

I won't pretend what I'm doing is ethical. Nor am I going to try to justify it. But I'm going to do it because I believe I can make something better out of a subjects life for everyone else.

Wow, you already are indoctrinated without reaper help! Nice going, you truly are a deranged fool. :happy:

To your perspective, which I regard as self-righteous and limited in this regard. Can you really say that your perspective is truly anything more than a subjective opinion?

How can I be indoctrinated? I don't have any voices in my head. I don't see oily shadows. I don't believe in doing anything except destroying the Reapers.

Besides, the Reapers are already dead. How can they influence me? I have their tech, and I'm unlocking their secrets. Technology is making leaps and bounds. The galaxy is entering a new golden age.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 03:28 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

The thing I don't quite get with Cerberus' tests on Horizon is that use of living subjects shouldn't really be necessary when dealing with husks. When a person is impaled on a giant freaking spike, you'd think that this person would die before it has a chance to inject nanites into his system. Putting people in gas chambers so that they are horrified before making the transition is just cartoonishly evil.

The method's that Henry Lawson used were atrocious. I agree with what Cerberus was doing, but not with what he was doing. He seemed more interested in personal glory and the bottom line than anything else.

Even in unethical and 'immoral' experiments, there is a certain threshold of humane treatment that can (and should) be observed. Not to mention resorting to heavily egregious methods immediately.

Henry Lawson was a looney. Miranda is glad to have him gone, as is my Shepard. He won't be able to hurt her or Oriana any longer.

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

To your perspective, which I regard as self-righteous and limited. Can you really say that your perspective is truly anything more than a subjective opinion?

And killing hundreds of innocent people is "okay" in your eyes? For the sake of useless science? Yes, you are insane, and worse than the Illusive man imo, because he was actually indoctrinated.

How can I be indoctrinated? I don't have any voices in my head. I don't see oily shadows. I don't believe in doing anything except destroying the Reapers.

My bad, I meant you are insane and belong in a mental institution. Better?

The galaxy is entering a new golden age.

I would call it a dark age. I mean, in your universe, I would kill you so fast, and the funny thing is, you would run to Mirandu for help. 

[KaiserShep]

Horizon is not a really good example of things to emulate. If you subtract the extremes from the equation, you don't have much left, since luring refugees into a trap is not what I would call acting for the greater good. With the best of intentions, the organization turns itself into a blight. Besides, there are better examples of Cerberus' experimentation, particularly Lazarus, as well as their non-biological projects. Heck, they can build a hell of a starship. 

Granted, the reapers do present a great deal of urgency, and not a whole lot of room for a deft touch. That said, their methods, given what we know of the tech they're using, is still unnecessary. All of this adds up to a lot of outlandish evil from indoctrinated yahoos. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 juin 2013 - 03:43 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

To your perspective, which I regard as self-righteous and limited. Can you really say that your perspective is truly anything more than a subjective opinion?

And killing hundreds of innocent people is "okay" in your eyes? For the sake of useless science? Yes, you are insane, and worse than the Illusive man imo, because he was actually indoctrinated.

How can I be indoctrinated? I don't have any voices in my head. I don't see oily shadows. I don't believe in doing anything except destroying the Reapers.

My bad, I meant you are insane and belong in a mental institution. Better?

The galaxy is entering a new golden age.

I would call it a dark age. I mean, in your universe, I would kill you so fast, and the funny thing is, you would run to Mirandu for help. 

I have a distaste for inhumane methods that require death. That said, I'm not going to let those methods disspel me just because I don't like them. I'm not going to resort to them at every opportunity like my predecessor, but it's not off the table. I'll do it if it's necessary.

That said, how am I insane? I know fully well what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I don't fit insanity at all. I understand full well what I'm doing to beings that I kill, and I know full well the consequences of what might happen. I'm not insane.

Somewhat brutal and focused on achieving results would be a good word choice for me. Ruthless would be even better.

I haven't lost my empathy. I have compassion. I'm simply disregarding it to achieve an end. I'm even an idealist - I do what I do to ensure a better future for all denizens of the galaxy, even if I have to step on a few toes and take a few lives (through experimentation, assassination, etc.)

I think you're limited by blind indoctrination to some paragon ideal of white knightly-ness. 

That said, it's my universe. You don't exist in it. And if you did, you'd be taken down by my agents long before you were ever able to carry out your plan. Miranda would ensure that. She's not going to let anything happen to Shepard. Hell, she might kill you herself, and we'd have to retaliate. Against the Quarians. I can think of some ways to completely annihilate their kind.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 03:44 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

Horizon is not a really good example of things to emulate. If you subtract the extremes from the equation, you don't have much left, since luring refugees into a trap is not what I would call acting for the greater good. With the best of intentions, the organization turns itself into a blight. 

There's another thing about the refugee's:

What would you do with them? What can you do with them? How would they fit into your strategy against the Reapers? How would they fit into your economic war plan?

I say this because I don't view the refugee's as people. I view them as resources to be exploited.

I know how that sounds. The thing is, the Reapers aren't giving me a choice on how to feel about them.

All of that said, I do believe that the greater good sometimes requires a lot of blood.

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Saying you are going to start up Horizon stuff ASAP... How was I supposed to take that? Surely you saw people being herded into rooms and pods and turned into husks against their will, for the sake of "controlling reapers"... That, is why I said you were insane, because it is.

And tell me, what would you gain that is "worth it", from experiments like that? I seriously think you can't think of one good thing that could come of it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Saying you are going to start up Horizon stuff ASAP... How was I supposed to take that? Surely you saw people being herded into rooms and pods and turned into husks against their will, for the sake of "controlling reapers"... That, is why I said you were insane, because it is.

And tell me, what would you gain that is "worth it", from experiments like that? I seriously think you can't think of one good thing that could come of it.

Yes, I did see the refugee's being herded into rooms and pods and turned into husks for the sake of controlling Reapers. And it worked. I call that brilliance. Genius. For the wrong reasons perhaps, but what if we could turn that power to our own use?

I learned that controlling the Reapers, or at least their troops, was a possibility. A possible game changer. Something to possibily use against them, so that less of our troops wouldn't die. Dedication. A way to possibly find a weakness to the Reapers. If I could find a way to destroy them or beat them without the Crucible destroying the Relays, I would try.

What do those innocent people do to help the war effort? How useful are they? When do they stop being an economic resource and become a liability to be cast off?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[Dextro Milk]

You don't understand.

What use could new experiments of that scale give us? After the reapers are dead, why the hell would you need to start up stuff like that? There is always a better way, and killing innocent people for the sake of "science" is sick.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

You don't understand.

What use could new experiments of that scale give us? After the reapers are dead, why the hell would you need to start up stuff like that? There is always a better way, and killing innocent people for the sake of "science" is sick.

Well, it takes a whole heap of economic burden off of heavily struggling governments for one. For second, I think Sanctuary post-war will be exactly what it was promised to be. 

Perhaps I should stipulate: I intend to continue and perform experiments, things that Cerberus might've done. Not Sanctuary per se, but I will do things (be they scientific, military, or political) that are ethically grey to very dark if the benefits outweigh the costs.

There isn't always a better way that's feasible; in fact, there isn't always a better way period. While I agree with that sentiment in regards to the organic and synthetic coflict postulated by the Reapers, I don't blatantly agree with that in every context. While my political arm changes the galaxy and interstellar relations through neoliberalism thought and progressive constructivism to bring the species closer together in unity, my military arm is gearing up for threats that are both known and unknown, and my science arm is continuing to find ways to further technology and science.

Killing innocents for the sake of science can be sick, but it can also be very good and useful. I'm not going to go out of my way to kill people and pull the science card as an excuse like Mengele did.

But if the benefit and gains from an experiment or project outweigh the life of an innocent, I'm going to take the necessary steps to get to those gains and benefits.

It's a high cost, but if something is worth the price, then I will make it.

[Dextro Milk]

Yet, you still haven't answered my question. Name one thing new that would be useful, or needed, in a post-destroy world from killing innocent people.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Yet, you still haven't answered my question. Name one thing new that would be useful, or needed, in a post-destroy world from killing innocent people.

Economic Stability for starters. Pretty important. There's going to be a lot of hungry mouths to feed, and not enough food or farmers to feed them. At this point, innocent refugee's are an egregious resource. There are billions of homeless, diseased, starving, and suffering. They're going to die from hunger, exposure, disease, conflict, and a variety of other ills in the immediate aftermath. They're going to suffer. There is no hope for them. There never was. I don't care about their hope. There's nothing I can do to change their fate. That's not what I was fighting for. They're not who I was fighting for. I was fighting for civilization. The insurance that there would be another day for the galaxy. For a lot of the people of the galaxy, there won't be another day. And there is nothing I can do to change that. And thus, I don't care about changing it. Does caring magically make it all better for them? I might as well make them useful to science when they die. Increase the liklihood that others won't have to suffer like they have. It's terrible how they suffer, but my mind is made up.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 04:17 .

[KaiserShep]

 The way I see it, once the reaper threat is dealt with, much of the galaxy would be on the mend, and would be so for years to come. Bandits and mercs that survived the war may profiteer, raid and hoard resources while supply ships are running back and forth during the reconstruction, but other than that, there's no immediate threat that should coax a Sanctuary Part II. The only other possible threat would be from any potential Krogan upheaval that challenges Wrex's regime, for any reason, but that may not be for years, or even generations to come. After the war, the relay system will still be under repairs, homeworlds are being rebuilt, and who knows how long it would take to rebuild the Citadel (depending on whether or not any keepers survived). 

The lack of urgency makes redoing Horizon unnecessary. Besides, who would go there? Once Horizon was dealt with before assaulting the Cerberus base, Shepard unblocks the signal that sends out a warning to everyone who can receive it to stay well away from that place. You could just pack up and set up shop in some other sucker planet, but given what every major governmental body in the galaxy is made aware of, you'd have to tread lightly. Thankfully, Miranda strikes me as the level-headed type who be the best choice to oversee operations and make sure that no mad scientist does crazy sh** that screws people over unnecessarily. 

On another note, I would recommend just dropping the name Cerberus, and even the logo. The point is to advance the human race, not troll the galaxy by assuming the identity of a now defunct villain force. 

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Economic Stability for starters. Pretty important. There's going to be a lot of hungry mouths to feed, and not enough food or farmers to feed them. At this point, innocent refugee's are an egregious resource. They're going to die from hunger, exposure, disease, conflict, and a variety of other ills in the immediate aftermath. They're going to suffer. There is no hope for them. I don't care about their hope. That's not what I was fighting for. They're not who I was fighting for. I was fighting for civilization. The insurance that there would be another day for the galaxy. For a lot of the people of the galaxy, there won't be another day. And there is nothing I can do to change that. And thus, I don't care about changing it. Does caring magically make it all better for them? I might as well make them useful to science when they die. Increase the liklihood that others won't have to suffer like they have. It's terrible how they suffer, but my mind is made up.

Cerberus was just a black ops group that works to gain a tactical advantage. All things considered, these things shouldn't really be part of their list of objectives anyway, at least not beyond research into genetic modification that can yield greater quantities in certain foods, aerospace tech, etc.. Other organizations, be it Alliance, council resources, or whatever the heck else is out there, can help pick up the slack. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 juin 2013 - 04:24 .

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I hope one day you realize that killing innocent people is not the way to further our technology or race. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I hope one day you realize that killing innocent people is not the way to further our technology or race. 

I probably won't. I'm not wired that way. I don't view the world the same way you do. I do view the ends as justifying the means (within certain contexts and circumstances). I'm sorry if that's harsh for you.

To you, I might be too logical and ruthless. To me, you're too emotional and self-righteous. I suggest we agree to disagree and move on.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 juin 2013 - 04:30 .

[Dextro Milk]

I would rather protect the innocent lives and gain no scientific understanding, rather than kill them and advance our technology 100 years.

You see me as "Self-righteous", But is that a bad thing? You have no respect for anyone, considering that once they are weak, you would start killing them for your own gain.

What would happen if someone like you found Shepard (You) in a pile of rubble, would you want them to start ripping you apart to advance science? I'm going to go ahead and guess you are a hypocrite on this subject.

Edit - Yes, agree to disagree.

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 27 juin 2013 - 04:36 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Economic Stability for starters. Pretty important. There's going to be a lot of hungry mouths to feed, and not enough food or farmers to feed them. At this point, innocent refugee's are an egregious resource. They're going to die from hunger, exposure, disease, conflict, and a variety of other ills in the immediate aftermath. They're going to suffer. There is no hope for them. I don't care about their hope. That's not what I was fighting for. They're not who I was fighting for. I was fighting for civilization. The insurance that there would be another day for the galaxy. For a lot of the people of the galaxy, there won't be another day. And there is nothing I can do to change that. And thus, I don't care about changing it. Does caring magically make it all better for them? I might as well make them useful to science when they die. Increase the liklihood that others won't have to suffer like they have. It's terrible how they suffer, but my mind is made up.

Cerberus was just a black ops group that works to gain a tactical advantage. All things considered, these things shouldn't really be part of their list of objectives anyway, at least not beyond research into genetic modification that can yield greater quantities in certain foods, aerospace tech, etc.. Other organizations, be it Alliance, council resources, or whatever the heck else is out there, can help pick up the slack. 

Oh I agree, the other groups should pick up the slack. The thing is, they probably won't. I don't have faith in the alliance or the council to pick up the slack for their civilians or for society period.

That's why Cerberus exists for me, or likewise entity: the alliance and council won't be able or will be unwilling to rectify issues with resource development and new technologies.

That leads to an economic instability. That leads to people who are going to suffer, and die suffering. I'm taking those people and doing unethical things to them and killing them because the people who were supposed to take care of them and protect them and feed them didn't.

I completely agree with your assertion with Miranda. She's the most level-headed and competent person to run a new Cerberus-like entity, and she'll make sure her people aren't going nuts. That was a problem of TIM's: too many nutjobs went, well, nuts do to his lack of restraint in many of their methods.

Miranda will ensure that anything that is extreme (like killing innocents for an experiment) is properly regulated and watched over, and she'll ensure that it isn't done arbitrarily.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dextro Milk wrote...

I would rather protect the innocent lives and gain no scientific understanding, rather than kill them and advance our technology 100 years.

You see me as "Self-righteous", But is that a bad thing? You have no respect for anyone, considering that once they are weak, you would start killing them for your own gain.

What would happen if someone like you found Shepard (You) in a pile of rubble, would you want them to start ripping you apart to advance science? I'm going to go ahead and guess you are a hypocrite on this subject.

Edit - Yes, agree to disagree.

It's not a bad thing if you're also pragmatic about it or are at least logical about it. I have plenty of respect for people. I do what I do because my respect for everyone else supersedes my respect for one or a few. 

And yes, I don't believe in coddling the weak. I believe in building them up and making them strong, even if I have to drag them by their hair. 

Here's the thing: My Shepard wasn't found by someone who wanted to rip him apart for science. I just beat your logic.

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


Here's the thing: My Shepard wasn't found by someone who wanted to rip him apart for science. I just beat your logic.

Dogded the question is more like it.

If you wouldn't want someone to kill you "for science", yet you would do it to them, you sir, are a hypocrite.

[kobayashi-maru]

Adams probably by Alliance regulations, but most probably the VS or Garris if Shepard chose one. Maybe

[Arcadian Legend]

Well, this is quite the thread derailment I'm seeing here.

Adams or Joker BTW.

Modifié par Arcadian Legend, 27 juin 2013 - 04:55 .