1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

I notice that in the threads pertaining to whether or not LIs should be playersexual or bisexual or whatever, a fairly common complaint is that by having LI companions available to all genders, characterization and story are both somehow watered down.  Some people seem to think that having romances at all brings down the quality of the writing, but most often I've noticed that the concern is specific toward the LIs being bisexual.  Personally I don't honestly see how simply making all the LIs available to any gender will affect either the overall story or the characterization of the Companions, so I'm curious why some people seem to think it's a given.  How were the DA2 characters unbelievable, and how can this be blamed on their availability as LIs?  For that matter, what about the bi characters from Origins?  Were they better written, or were they equally watered down? 

Please note: I am creating this topic in good faith; I am not asking about whether it is realistic to have all the LIs be playersexual/bisexual.  I don't care about whether people find it annoying to be hit on by opposite-gender Companions.  I don't really want to read about how Bioware is just pandering.  None of these are relevant to what I'd like to discuss, so please refrain from the off-topic comments or the childish potshots.  Thank you.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[BlueMagitek]

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.

An example of it done well is in Viconia; you can change her alignment, to an extent, but she'll never be good. And there are consequences for doing so.

An example of where it is explained is in KotOR 2: The Exile's literally mind controlling the characters. One of them even has a slight breakdown over it.

So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way. Very rarely does it have to do with the character being bi. And the lack of indication of bisexuality outside of the PC.

[sandalisthemaker]

A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

[Eveangaline]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.

An example of it done well is in Viconia; you can change her alignment, to an extent, but she'll never be good. And there are consequences for doing so.

An example of where it is explained is in KotOR 2: The Exile's literally mind controlling the characters. One of them even has a slight breakdown over it.

So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way. Very rarely does it have to do with the character being bi. And the lack of indication of bisexuality outside of the PC.

By that logic, the rivalry system is far worse than bisexual LIs. Before, characters were free to hate the PC and leave, now they're tied to being forced to respect them on some level and never leave unless it's a plot thing.

[BlueMagitek]

Yes. The Rivalry System does not work as intended. There needs to be more than two bars, because while you can still be on good terms with a rival, some actions, such as turning over your runaway slave buddy, should not be +100 Rivalry but +100 Dislike or whatever they would like to call it.

So yes, the Rivalry System in its current form needs a rework.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.

An example of it done well is in Viconia; you can change her alignment, to an extent, but she'll never be good. And there are consequences for doing so.

An example of where it is explained is in KotOR 2: The Exile's literally mind controlling the characters. One of them even has a slight breakdown over it.

So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way. Very rarely does it have to do with the character being bi. And the lack of indication of bisexuality outside of the PC.

I wonder how players would have responded to companions shutting them down romantically if their protagonist was too different (or offensive) to them, like having Anders or Merrill resist the romantic advances of a pro-templar Hawke because they don't like him, or having Fenris cut ties with a pro-slavery Hawke. I can understand the criticism about the player having too much sway over the companions.

[BlueMagitek]

I would be totally okay with that.

In fact, Bioware has done it before. Your Baldur's Gate companions were much more picky about who they liked.

[The Hierophant]

@ op - The real issue with DA's li is that the pc could hook up with them no matter how they behave or look, and rarely has a relationship ended as a result of the pc wiping their @ss with the companion's ideals/beliefs. The li lack preferences which barely puts them a step above your typical li in a generic anime styled dating sim.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 juin 2013 - 02:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

Morocco Mole wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I would be totally okay with that.

In fact, Bioware has done it before. Your Baldur's Gate companions were much more picky about who they liked.

Which was great since you had to pick characters carefully or they would revolt

Oh lordy, I'm not even talking about the balance of good and evil and neutral and lawful and chaotic, just that some of the former LI's would have preferences like disliking (not attracted to) Gnomes or Dwarves, could potentially be seduced by another party member, romance was very difficult to navigate, etc.

[Taint Master]

I made a thread about this topic which was promptly locked, but to reiterate, the reason I personally feel player-sexual LIs is a bad idea is because it compromises the identity of each character. I specifically say player-sexual instead of 'bi' because a character specifically written as bisexual (Zevran and Leliana in DAO) can make it a part of their identity.

No, I'm not saying people are defined by their sexuality, but I completely disagree with those who claim it makes no difference at all. Your sexual identity is a part of what makes you who you are, however big or small.

Making everyone player-sexual makes them instantly feel generic and just reeks of laziness on the devs/writers part imo.

[Ryzaki]

Ugh Baldur's Gate companions. God that annoyed the crap out of me. I didn't mind the seperation but the WHINING. If they were gonna leave they should've just GTFO'd.

As for Viconia. Ugh. She wouldn't leave my poor dude alone and the catfights she and Jaheria had. Bleh. I felt far far more harassed in BG when it came to the LIs than any other game. Woe betide I not be a douchecanoe. Apparently that means Tru wub forever <3333.

*gags*

I'm not even going to get into that douchecanoe Ameojerk.

Anyway I don't fell all bi LIs makes characters malleable to the PC and I can justify why Fenris was okay with you making that elf chick your slave. (I can't on the other hand justify him being okay with Hawke using bloodmagic and such). Same with Anders really. Everyone and their mother ignoring you being a bloodmage was annoying.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 02:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ugh Baldur's gate companions. God that annoyed the crap out of me. I didn't mind the seperation but the WHINING. If they were gonna leave they should've just GTFO'd.

As for Viconia. Ugh. She wouldn't leave my poor dude alone and the catfights she and Jaheria had. Bleh. I felt far far more harassed in BG when it came to the LIs than any other game. Woe betide I not be a douchecanoe. Apparently that means Tru wub forever <3333.

*gags*

Well, you could have just ascended.  That's how you gtfo.

Also, what sort of party isn't centered around Mazzy & Korgan?  You disappoint me.

[PsychoBlonde]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way.

Yeah, but the thing is--every character isn't "interested" in the PC.  They're POTENTIALLY interested in the PC--and you can flirt with some of them yet nothing comes of it.  So I really do think people are reacting to things that aren't remotely accurate.

As for the idea that having LI's at all waters down the writing--if you take a mixed-gender group of healthy people between the ages of, geez, about 14 and . . . anything, there are going to be romances of some variety.  If you're going to have a story about people, they need to behave like people.  Rejecting romance as a possible human interaction is what waters down your writing--just as it would to reject any other fundamental human interaction due to cooties or whatever else the justification is.

Does that mean that any given person will LIKE your writing?  No.

[sandalisthemaker]

Fenris and Merrill were the same people whether you romanced them with a Male Hawke or a Female Hawke. Their bisexuality/playersexuality whatever you want to call it did not affect them in any way. Actually, I've heard complaints that they treat male/female PC's the exact same way and that it somehow "makes gender choice irrelevent" (which is a heteronormative perspective) and that is somehow cheapens the romance which I just don't get.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 28 juin 2013 - 02:59 .

[Zeldrik1389]

To be honest, I don't mind that all LIs to be bisexual. It just, imo, gives players more options to choose. And it doesn't really affect the way I play game. However, one thing that I really really hate is LI just throw themselves at you. It's weird seeing character just hit on you times after times, even though they are definitely not your type. Hell, it's even disgusting when characters that I hate do that, even though I constantly throw **** at him. I hope they make a clear line between Friend / Rival and LI :|

[Ryzaki]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, you could have just ascended.  That's how you gtfo.

Also, what sort of party isn't centered around Mazzy & Korgan?  You disappoint me.

He didn't want to deal with that pit of god vipers. Mortals were annoying enough.

 I wanted to see the lauded romances myself. Wishing I hadn't. God that playthrough was painful. Thank ra for mods or I'd given up because damn if I wasn't getting aggravated.

Then Aerie and that garbage "you betrayed me!" in the underdark. Never have I wanted to kill my whole party cheerfully. With a axe and a flamethrower.

I was so tempted not to reload with ameojerk flipped out and killed her. So so tempted.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 03:03 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Taint Master wrote...

Making everyone player-sexual makes them instantly feel generic and just reeks of laziness on the devs/writers part imo.

I didn't find that it made them "feel generic".  If you're going to talk about feelings, it's just a preference, not an argument.

[sandalisthemaker]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

To be honest, I don't mind that all LIs to be bisexual. It just, imo, gives players more options to choose. And it doesn't really affect the way I play game. However, one thing that I really really hate is LI just throw themselves at you. It's weird seeing character just hit on you times after times, even though they are definitely not your type. Hell, it's even disgusting when characters that I hate do that, even though I constantly throw **** at him. I hope they make a clear line between Friend / Rival and LI :|

They don't really do that though. 

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, you could have just ascended.  That's how you gtfo.

Also, what sort of party isn't centered around Mazzy & Korgan?  You disappoint me.

He didn't want to deal with that pit of god vipers. Mortals were annoying enough.

 I wanted to see the lauded romances myself. Wishing I hadn't. God that playthrough was painful. Thank ra for mods or I'd given up because damn if I wasn't getting aggravated.

Then Aerie and that garbage "you betrayed me!" in the underdark. Never have I wanted to kill my whole party cheerfully. With a axe and a flamethrower.

I was so tempted not to reload with ameojerk flipped out and killed her. So so tempted.

Well, worst thing that can happen is that Elminister stops tapping the Goddess of Magic and Fourth Edition Happ--- oooooh, right.....

Hahaha.  Sounds like you had a good experience then.

[Ryzaki]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

To be honest, I don't mind that all LIs to be bisexual. It just, imo, gives players more options to choose. And it doesn't really affect the way I play game. However, one thing that I really really hate is LI just throw themselves at you. It's weird seeing character just hit on you times after times, even though they are definitely not your type. Hell, it's even disgusting when characters that I hate do that, even though I constantly throw **** at him. I hope they make a clear line between Friend / Rival and LI :|

They don't really do that though. 

They kind of do. It's not restricted to bi/gay LIs though.

ME2 was particularly bad about this on the male Shep end. Think Miranda was the only female LI who didn't come out with a "let's start a relationship/screw!" line

Think FemShep's options were less annoyingly blatant.

@Blue:  yes a experience I dare not repeat for my sanity.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 03:07 .

[Eveangaline]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

To be honest, I don't mind that all LIs to be bisexual. It just, imo, gives players more options to choose. And it doesn't really affect the way I play game. However, one thing that I really really hate is LI just throw themselves at you. It's weird seeing character just hit on you times after times, even though they are definitely not your type. Hell, it's even disgusting when characters that I hate do that, even though I constantly throw **** at him. I hope they make a clear line between Friend / Rival and LI :|

They don't really do that though. 

Agreed. I have no idea what people are talking about most of the time when they complain about characters hitting on them or accidently romancing someone. The only person I accidently romanced was lelliana and once I told her I wasn't interested, she stopped.
Everyone else was extremely easy to avoid romancing and mostly waited till I brought it up first, and if they didn't they stopped.

[NoForgiveness]

Taint Master wrote...

I made a thread about this topic which was promptly locked, but to reiterate, the reason I personally feel player-sexual LIs is a bad idea is because it compromises the identity of each character. I specifically say player-sexual instead of 'bi' because a character specifically written as bisexual (Zevran and Leliana in DAO) can make it a part of their identity.

No, I'm not saying people are defined by their sexuality, but I completely disagree with those who claim it makes no difference at all. Your sexual identity is a part of what makes you who you are, however big or small.

Making everyone player-sexual makes them instantly feel generic and just reeks of laziness on the devs/writers part imo.

this

[Tarek]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

indeed oh sexy avatar man indeed

[sandalisthemaker]

Ryzaki wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

They don't really do that though. 

They kind of do. It's not restricted to bi/gay LIs though.

ME2 was particularly bad about this on the male Shep end. Think Miranda was the only female LI who didn't come out with a "let's start a relationship/screw!" line

Think FemShep's options were less annoyingly blatant.

Well I was mostly referring to DA.  
However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female. That's part of the reason why ManShep has a ready and willing harem to pick from.