1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Cheylus wrote...
Then please tell me why finding Alistair and Morrigan more interesting in their respective romance - but not Leliana or Zevran - is "interesting"?

No, it's interesting that you regard the romances of DA2 as "stereotypical", hence avoidance, but that you highlight the only two straight characters as being particularly interesting, despite the fact that they fulfill extremely common fantasy archetypes.

What does it mean?

I think it means that Alistair and Morrigan stand out to you, if only subconsciously, by virtue of their heterosexuality.

You're not clever enough to make assumptions about people by overreading their comments about video games, and nobody is.

I'm not assuming anything about you. The core of your arguments strike me as being homophobic in nature, regardless of whether or not you perceive yourself as homophobic in your day-to-day dealings.

And I recall you from another thread now, so I'll add that at the very least, you're incredibly unaware of how easily your arguments are construed as offensive, even though I'm pretty sure someone explained it to you. You think because you're not trying to offend, that nobody has the right to be offended. Which is the mindset of a lot of people who say offensive things.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
Just read your OP. Here's my take on it:

Having LIs playersexual does not necessarity affect characterization or story, but it does affect two things:

(1) It limits options for characterization and behavior within the romance to those which would appear realistic or possible towards both genders, unless the romance distinguishes between PC genders while still being available for both.

(2) It affects suspension of disbelief and world integrity. People aren't bi as a rule, and I can't believe in a world where the majority is. I know we're expected to treat every playthrough as an AU, but that's not how things work on the emotional level once you know things work differently in another's playthrough.

The main effect for me personally is that DA2's romances felt less real than DAO's. It's not anything in the game in particular, what affects me is the knowledge that these characters don't have a sexual orientation which is part of them as other traits are, or, if they have one (bi) it's unbelievable that they all have it. They just fell less real.

I'd rather have a setup like in DAO.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 11:58 .

[Cheylus]

I think it means that Alistair and Morrigan stand out to you, if only subconsciously, by virtue of their heterosexuality.

I'm not assuming anything about you. The core of your arguments strike me as being homophobic in nature, regardless of whether or not you perceive yourself as homophobic in your day-to-day dealings.

You're talking about my thoughts, my subconscience and my self-perception.

Ok, Cheylus out.

Modifié par Cheylus, 28 juin 2013 - 12:00 .

[LobselVith8]

fchopin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you've no problems with everyone in DA2 being one?

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character. 

I don't recall any developer making such a claim about Hawke's companions.

[Dhiro]

Yay, first stop south.

I'd say that Morrigan and Alistair would stand out simply because of their ties to the main storyline - and the rest of the settings as a whole, really. Of course, Leliana's romance > all your faves.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall any developer making such a claim about Hawke's companions.

Do they have to? Within the playthrough there is (with notable exceptions) no indication that they might be attracted to genders beyond the player characters. You have to apply external meta knowledge to reach that conclusion. 

[Firky]

I'm sure part of the problem, if there is one, is that people who know these games are now expecting "all bi" or "playersexual" companions.

I had no idea Leliana and Zevran were anything other than heterosexual because, not only didn't I go down that route with them, I didn't know that route existed. That may come back to the explicitness of the icons on the dialogue wheel.

I don't think it's just a case of whether or not all companions should be bi - it's also do do with how it's obfuscated.

[Dirgegun]

Ziggeh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall any developer making such a claim about Hawke's companions.

Do they have to? Within the playthrough there is (with notable exceptions) no indication that they might be attracted to genders beyond the player characters. You have to apply external meta knowledge to reach that conclusion. 

You can hit on Fenris and have him hit on you, but not start a relationship. He still ends up with Isabela in the third act. So that would make him bisexual, or, as I see him, demisexual. 

I see Merrill as demisexual, as well, so there's no reason for her to hit on anyone she doesn't feel a connection with. 

I would say Anders is Pansexual, as he has obviously had sexual relations with females (including Isabela at the Pearl, and they even have a discussion about this) and, with a male Hawke, mentions Karl if you choose to persue him.

Isabela is bisexual... or perhaps pansexual? 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 12:11 .

[nightscrawl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(1) It limits options for characterization and behavior within the romance to those which would appear realistic or possible towards both genders, unless the romance distinguishes between PC genders while still being available for both.

This is an interesting point. The Anders romance is the main one with much distinction, and that is because of his dialog regarding Karl. This difference used to really irritate me as I felt that it was an aspect of Anders that was restricted to male Hawke only; now I don't really care. In fact, I think I would prefer that there were more such distinctions because they would add to the replayability, making the romances more distinct. Imagine the large variety DA2 would have had with more distinct M/F romance and the inclusion of the friend/rival system: up to four each, depending on how the writing was shifted around. However, I can understand the resource reasons for not doing that with all of the companions.

[luna1124]

I think it was done perfectly in DAO. You have a choice, a couple bi characters, a couple hetero companions, kind of like real life. I don't think every companion should be bi, just like I don't think everyone should be straight. You don't Have to interact with them sexually if you don't want to....choices, like do you kill little Connor, or find help for him?

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
Just read your OP. Here's my take on it:

Having LIs playersexual does not necessarity affect characterization or story, but it does affect two things:

(1) It limits options for characterization and behavior within the romance to those which would appear realistic or possible towards both genders, unless the romance distinguishes between PC genders while still being available for both.

(2) It affects suspension of disbelief and world integrity. People aren't bi as a rule, and I can't believe in a world where the majority is. I know we're expected to treat every playthrough as an AU, but that's not how things work on the emotional level once you know things work differently in another's playthrough.

The main effect for me personally is that DA2's romances felt less real than DAO's. It's not anything in the game in particular, what affects me is the knowledge that these characters don't have a sexual orientation which is part of them as other traits are, or, if they have one (bi) it's unbelievable that they all have it. They just fell less real.

I'd rather have a setup like in DAO.

Take into account that elves are a different race than humans and might have different sexuality ratios, and what you get is one bisexual and one pansexual human. That's hardly so bad, is it?

[Dirgegun]

nightscrawl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

(1) It limits options for characterization and behavior within the romance to those which would appear realistic or possible towards both genders, unless the romance distinguishes between PC genders while still being available for both.

This is an interesting point. The Anders romance is the main one with much distinction, and that is because of his dialog regarding Karl. This difference used to really irritate me as I felt that it was an aspect of Anders that was restricted to male Hawke only; now I don't really care. In fact, I think I would prefer that there were more such distinctions because they would add to the replayability, making the romances more distinct. Imagine the large variety DA2 would have had with more distinct M/F romance and the inclusion of the friend/rival system: up to four each, depending on how the writing was shifted around. However, I can understand the resource reasons for not doing that with all of the companions.

Anders also has a somewhat unhealthy view of females, which comes up in the romance. Not strongly, but it's there. He treats a female Hawke showing concern for him completely different to a male Hawke "I'd like to see you try, sweetheart" verse "I'm more worries about YOU" (paraphrasing because I can't remember word for word), and he also goes on about how 'I'll only hurt you' with a female Hawke that I've noticed. Male Hawke never experiences those conversations with him.

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) It affects suspension of disbelief and world integrity. People aren't bi as a rule, and I can't believe in a world where the majority is. I know we're expected to treat every playthrough as an AU, but that's not how things work on the emotional level once you know things work differently in another's playthrough. 

Suspension of disbelief, like immersion is far too personal and subjective a thing to really hold up as an argument, but I do agree that despite it relying on knowledge external to the gameplay we likely percieve them as bisexual and will concede this can affect your ability to "immerse", largely because you're forced into a position of using external knowledge when navigating the relationship.

But here's the thing: the reason we get tripped up mentally on issues like that is because there really aren't parallels for this kind of storytelling. We're attempting to apply the methods of engagement we have with films and books - inflexible narratives - and it doesn't always work. Bioware are literally in the process of defining the ways in which such interacting storytelling will be interpreted. We and they are learning how to write and view this maturing medium.

And while it is maturing, isn't it better to include, and thus teach useful habits, such as drawing lines of distinction between gameplays?

[Dirgegun]

luna1124 wrote...

I think it was done perfectly in DAO. You have a choice, a couple bi characters, a couple hetero companions, kind of like real life. I don't think every companion should be bi, just like I don't think everyone should be straight. You don't Have to interact with them sexually if you don't want to....choices, like do you kill little Connor, or find help for him?

The only problem was that the plot centric characters were the heterosexuals, and the bi characters, while well written, you could miss recruiting/kill. I don't think Bioware did that on purpose, and I think it just worked out that way by coincidence, but by making all the characters bi you create more choice (I know plenty of bi/homosexual people who didn't connect with Zevran or Leliana but DID connect with Morrigan and Alistair) and give everyone the oppotunity to experience different romantic subplots.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 12:23 .

[Dirgegun]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

Because, maybe, people like playing characters they personally identify with? I, personally, don't have that problem, but I'm not about to damn those who do.  

[Ziggeh]

Dirgegun wrote...

You can hit on Fenris and have him hit on you, but not start a relationship. He still ends up with Isabela in the third act. So that would make him bisexual, or, as I see him, demisexual. 

As I say, there are exceptions. 

But what I'm saying* is that if you hadn't hit on him, and he'd ended in a relationship with Isabella, You would have no indication, beyond knowledge external to the current playthrough that he was anything other than sraight.

*I should clarify: I'm not saying you should do this, or even that I do, but that you can, and thus the case can be made that the player -makes- them bisexual.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...
Race is still very much a problem in the Western world. Though this isn't the topic and I don't feel like discussing it right now.

And homosexuality isn't? Where have you been?

How so?

For starters, opposing sexual freedoms in videogames at all in the first place doesn't speak well of an individual's support of sexual freedoms in real life.

I've explained multiple times in this thread and others why specific arguments are flawed and homophobic. If you want a refresher course, stick around. I'm sure they'll pop up again.

Why should a character's orientation depend on the PC though?

A better question would be why gender is an issue at all in settings where characters routinely date outside their own species. Human characters in DA:O have no reservations about romancing a dwarf or an elf, even though they're second-class citizens. Merrill has no reservations about romancing Hawke even though the Dalish strongly discourage it and the preservation of her people matters to her more than anything, and having a child with Hawke would contribute to the erasure of the Dalish people (not to mention their child would be subjected to bigotry from both humans and elves). Garrus, Thane and Tali are conveniently not repulsed by Shepard's squishy gross body with a skeleton on the inside (yuck). And barring a very few instances, the PC can do things that would repulse and horrify their love interest, but which have no bearing on the romance at all.

In comparison to these issues, gating content based on gender is arbitrary and ludicrous.

Why can't a character's sexuality be brought up instead of hidden behind a veil and never addressed?

It is addressed. Making the characters romanceable is addressing it.

And yes, believe it or not. Gender does matter quite a bit in relationships.

Gender is by and large socially constructed. The only substantial differences between men and women are purely physical.

Gender might matter in a society like our own, where same-sex relationships are a source of stigma (as are interracial relationships, relationships with a significant age difference, long-distance relationships, and so on ad infinitum) but the land of Thedas doesn't have a stigma against same-sex relationships. It has no reason to, its culture is founded on completely different mores.

And as for re-using resources? I understand why game developers have to do it (time, money, constraints, will people actually use this content) but when you are just going to copy/paste a romance scene then you might as well just not do it.

That's silly. It's very little effort, it makes a lot of people happy, and gay relationships do not function differently from straight relationships, so putting special effort into differentiating them is completely unnecessary.

If equality is easy to implement, then there's no good reason not to do it, unless you are somehow opposed to equality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 juin 2013 - 12:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

It wouldn't be a homosexual romance then, would it.

[Dirgegun]

Ziggeh wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

You can hit on Fenris and have him hit on you, but not start a relationship. He still ends up with Isabela in the third act. So that would make him bisexual, or, as I see him, demisexual. 

As I say, there are exceptions. 

But what I'm saying* is that if you hadn't hit on him, and he'd ended in a relationship with Isabella, You would have no indication, beyond knowledge external to the current playthrough that he was anything other than sraight.

*I should clarify: I'm not saying you should do this, or even that I do, but that you can, and thus the case can be made that the player -makes- them bisexual.

And, admittedly, such arguments are impossible to properly oppose, as it comes down to perception and judging a person by the relationship we see them in at the time. Which, I imagine, means a lot of bisexual, pansexual, demisexual, and asexual but romantic people get labelled either straight or gay because they're judged by whatever relationship they're seen in at the time.

I guess I find it difficult to agree with the playersexual argument because I also consider the other sexualities in existence, and that just because we see one relationship doesn't mean that one relationship defines their sexual identity. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 12:36 .

[Ziggeh]

Plaintiff wrote...

If equality is easy to implement, then there's no good reason not to do it, unless you are somehow opposed to equality.

This isn't a good reason, but I've been thinking about reasons why people might have issues with it (because I don't believe a lot of the reasons that have been rasied), and it is a and it's not been raised as far as I can see:

It makes them a bit special. In the same way being a dwarf in Orzammar is a bit special. It's seeing the impact of a choice you made, your effect upon the games world. The fact that this is at the detriment of other players is the point -exclusivity feels special.

[Xilizhra]

Some characters are just straight.

And those aren't into the PC and aren't romances.

[Ziggeh]

Dirgegun wrote...

I guess I find it difficult to agree with the playersexual argument because I also consider the other sexualities in existence, and that just because we see one relationship doesn't mean that one relationship defines their sexual identity. 

It's really a problem of the medium, and it's not limited to sexuality. We have very little experience with a medium that modifies itself with exposure, and so we apply the experiences we have from similar mediums with varying levels of success. We assume all content is valid, despite evidence to the contrary (Shepard is both male and Female).

Which is not to say it's wrong to do in this case. There is not right, because what's right is being written. As if were.