1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And those aren't into the PC and aren't romances.

Which is the discussion point. Thank you for keeping up with the thread

So you think that straight people need to be romance options more than bisexual ones?

[nightscrawl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

Maybe I don't want to play a guy? I had never made a male character in DAO until recently and it took quite a while for me to make a male Hawke. Part of the reason is appearance (I couldn't create a decent male in DAO), and another is that I prefer to play as the gender I am.

Let's take the DAO companions. Both of the women and both of the men are opposites of each other. If you are a gay woman playing a female PC but don't like the devout, girly-girl (shoes, hair, etc), Leliana, you have no other option. In DAO if you are a gay man playing as a male PC but are uncomfortable with Zevran's free sexuality, you have no other option. The woman can't choose to romance the bad girl, and the man can't choose the nice boy. This problem is eliminated with DA2.

[Dirgegun]

nightscrawl wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

Maybe I don't want to play a guy? I had never made a male character in DAO until recently and it took quite a while for me to make a male Hawke. Part of the reason is appearance (I couldn't create a decent male in DAO), and another is that I prefer to play as the gender I am.

Let's take the DAO companions. Both of the women and both of the men are opposites of each other. If you are a gay woman playing a female PC but don't like the devout, girly-girl (shoes, hair, etc), Leliana, you have no other option. In DAO if you are a gay man playing as a male PC but are uncomfortable with Zevran's free sexuality, you have no other option. The woman can't choose to romance the bad girl, and the man can't choose the nice boy. This problem is eliminated with DA2.

This.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

No. I think there should be a variety of choices that are not all bisexual.

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...
I disagree.

Well, you're wrong. 

I fail to see how this has to do with everyone being pc-sexual. Homosexuality and bisexuality are not choices.

Being attracted to a person of a particular race or height or species isn't a choice either, but you're fine with Bioware disregarding that.

So Bioware is allowed to be lazy about writing a gay or bisexual character then?

It's not laziness, the characters were not written as default straight, with gay option sandwiched in as an afterthought. They were planned from the beginning to be available to both genders, and then the romances were written with that in mind. Laziness would be using the homosexuality of the characters as a basis for false drama in a setting where it's completely unwarranted.

Bioware's approach is vastly preferable to your ridiculous ultimatum, where Bioware either makes homosexuality into a big ****ing deal (which would alienate me and other homosexuals who get enough of that crap in real life, thanks), or erase the presence of homosexuals completely, which would again, alienate a lot of homosexuals that aren't you.

Another strawman.

Hardly.

Some characters are just straight.

There's no reason for them to be.

[Taint Master]

Drasanil wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I think to require that LGBT can only be done via romance is a rather rigid way of thinking.  Ideally, we're at a point where LGBT content can exist everywhere and everyone just doesn't even bat an eye at it, because it's considered normal and inoffensive to everyone.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I feel DA2's playersexual NPCs undermine that very notion in that it feels cheap and forced. Like something you put in because you had to as opposed to because that's just how things are. Ideally I'd like each NPC to be who they are independantly of who the PC is. I would have rather had 2 Straight and 2 Gay NPCs than 4 Bis.

Heck, I would hope DAI is even more discerning taking into account an NPC's cultural bias and such. Such as having a perfectly hetero elf/dwarf campanion turning down your advances because their identity means something to them. Or conversly, having demi-human refusing a hetero relationship but perfectly willing to accept a same-sex human partner because it's not betraying their culture (ie: no human babies) etc etc...  

Very well said.  Thank you for explaining it so clearly.  Having an entire player-sexual cast, regardless of race/sexual orientation/background,  makes the entire 'romance' experience come across as forced and insincere.

I felt the DAO LIs were very believable.  They owned every facet of her personalities, independent of my choices as a PC.  I can't say the same for the LIs in DA2.

[nightscrawl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

No. I think there should be a variety of choices that are not all bisexual.

There are only so many NPCs, companions, and romances they are going to put in the game.

Let's forget about making them bi or player-sexual for a moment and just have them be gay and straight. There are only so many romance options available. If there are going to be four romancable companions as in both DAO and DA2**, we would have two straight and two gay NPCs. Naturally, there would be a straight man and woman, and a gay man and woman. If you are a gay player you have one option. If you are a straight player you have one option. Sure, this might be fine and satisfy some criteria for NPCs "being their own person" and all of that, but it is still fewer options.



** Yes, it's common to ignore poor Sebastian. However, he is a DLC, and IMO not a "full" romance, compared to the other DA2 followers.

[Plaintiff]

Oh lord, I can't wait to hear what you think "mature" handling of homosexuality looks like.

[Xilizhra]

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Samantha and Steve were hurriedly slapped on so they wouldn't need to introduce a lot of final-hour bisexual options with preexisting characters, and the ME team has never been as progressive as the DA one anyway. They don't need to do that when inclusiveness isn't already broken.

Very well said. Thank you for explaining it so clearly. Having an entire player-sexual cast, regardless of race/sexual orientation/background, makes the entire 'romance' experience come across as forced and insincere.

No, it quite simply does not. If you want them to be more sensitive to personality issues within the PC, fine, but don't damage our ability to have the romances with people that we actually want. It's perfectly possible to handle everyone being bisexual well (I thought that DA2 did, it just had issues with the personality thing).

[LarryDavid]

Plaintiff wrote...

Your "play as you like while I play as I like" argument doesn't hold up. Mass Effect doesn't let me play as I like, and when it finally did, I got two options compared to straight men who have half a dozen.

DA2's way is the best because it's the fairest to everyone.

You can say that for you DA2's way seems the fairest option and thats it.

- Is fair about serving the majority? If their is a majority of players that only want stricktly straight LIs, is DA2's way then the fairest?
- Is fair about maximizing total happiness? If we take into consideration what each player wants AND how important it is for them; will it turn out that DA2's implementation is the optimal solution?
- Is fair about a correct representation? With 'a' the probability of not being straight, the combination of sexual orientation of the followers in DAO is (1-a)^2/a^2 more likely than the combination in DA2. Lets be generous and say that a=0.05, we then obtain a factor of over 350. Or maybe you want to know how many followers (=n) are needed in order for it to be more likely that there are 1 or more non straight followers. That would be n=ln(0.5)/ln(1-a) or 14 with a=0.05. So if there are less than 14 followers it is most likely that they are all straight.

Basically, you have used your own desires to define 'fairness' for yourself and then you try to use this definition as something objective in this discussion, which is very unwise in my opinion. You can't take the moral high ground if you have noting objective to back you up.

Before the BSN I never wondered about the representation of minorities in games. Till a long while ago when I read a post about someone who complained about the presence of LGBTs in games and said it would be nice if that would change. So, I thought 'why not?' what she asks for does not conflict with my selfish interests and if it really makes her happy I'm all for it. But then you start reading BS things like 'Bioware SHOULD do this', 'straight privilege', 'equal representation', 'fairness', ... and slowly I'm starting to change my mind. If a child keeps crying for a cookie, giving it encourages the child to be noisy everytime it wants something ...

[Dirgegun]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

The only issue I have with all of your arguments is that you're basically saying that those who are straight are allowed their multiple choices, but those who aren't should either suck it up and like the one choice they get or roll a character of the opposite gender to the character they want to romance and, once again, suck it up if they don't like that.

You can argue that sexuality is a big deal, and, in our society it is, but even the World of Thedas lore book says that sexuality and homosexuality isn't treated very differently. In Orlais it's treated as just another quirk of character, and while in Ferelden in might raise a single eyebrow, it's not a big deal.

Also, as someone who does play through the 'heterosexual' romances as well as the 'homosexual' ones depending on the characters I create, I would be pretty turned off if they were all about the gender of the character. I would much rather find out about their character, personality, and how they treat their loved ones rather than have a lengthy discussion on how 'girl, I'm so glad your a girl, girl. I don't like anyone but girls, girl' or alternatively 'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

If romance has to mention what gender they're into every other sentence, or at all, it would get more than one eyeroll from me.

[Xilizhra]

- Is fair about serving the majority? If their is a majority of players that only want stricktly straight LIs, is DA2's way then the fairest?

There isn't. The "majority" doesn't give a crap about romance; beyond that, I think very few people are actively out for making more straight LIs.

- Is fair about maximizing total happiness? If we take into consideration what each player wants AND how important it is for them; will it turn out that DA2's implementation is the optimal solution?

Yes.

- Is fair about a correct representation? With 'a' the probability of not being straight, the combination of sexual orientation of the followers in DAO is (1-a)^2/a^2 more likely than the combination in DA2. Lets be generous and say that a=0.05, we then obtain a factor of over 350. Or maybe you want to know how many followers (=n) are needed in order for it to be more likely that there are 1 or more non straight followers. That would be n=ln(0.5)/ln(1-a) or 14 with a=0.05. So if there are less than 14 followers it is most likely that they are all straight.

I'm fairly sure your math is off, and given the different races in DA, it won't even apply to nonhumans.

Before the BSN I never wondered about the representation of minorities in games. Till a long while ago when I read a post about someone who complained about the presence of LGBTs in games and said it would be nice if that would change. So, I thought 'why not?' what she asks for does not conflict with my selfish interests and if it really makes her happy I'm all for it. But then you start reading BS things like 'Bioware SHOULD do this', 'straight privilege', 'equal representation', 'fairness', ... and slowly I'm starting to change my mind. If a child keeps crying for a cookie, giving it encourages the child to be noisy everytime it wants something ...

And it does not harm you in any way.

[nightscrawl]

LarryDavid wrote...

Basically, you have used your own desires to define 'fairness' for yourself and then you try to use this definition as something objective in this discussion, which is very unwise in my opinion. You can't take the moral high ground if you have noting objective to back you up.

The devs seem to consider it "fair" also.

David Gaider wrote...

As I've said before, I too would prefer set sexualities if all things were equal-- if I had enough resources that "realism" could be my biggest concern (ignoring for the moment how very subjective that is). But they're rarely equal, and in the case of DA2 simple fairness won out. As it should. I get that some people felt weird (for whatever reason) when they found out a character could romance someone of a different gender in another game... but I will not count that as being more important than allowing players a simple choice in who they romance, provided that it doesn't impact our ability to write the character. And it does not.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, I think this is something me and the majority of BSN is going to have to agree to disagree on

So, to clarify, you are saying you'd rather have more options for straight romances?

[Gotholhorakh]

You know what would be really visionary, and would fix some of the atrocious attitudes around here?

Compulsory LGBT love life in the game; Now bear with me! I know it sounds crazy, but you can't help wondering if some of the heteronormative and homophobic attitudes we see displayed might be snapped sharply into line if people had to walk a mile in the shoes of a gay or transsexual person - as well as get the abuse they have to deal with on a daily basis. Wouldn't it be much more fun for people to have their inappropriate and totally unacceptable attitudes adjusted for them for a few hours each day rather than prance about staring at a woman's backside, doing just the sort of heteronormative straight male stuff that has caused all of these problems in the first place?

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 28 juin 2013 - 01:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

nightscrawl wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

Maybe I don't want to play a guy? I had never made a male character in DAO until recently and it took quite a while for me to make a male Hawke. Part of the reason is appearance (I couldn't create a decent male in DAO), and another is that I prefer to play as the gender I am.

Let's take the DAO companions. Both of the women and both of the men are opposites of each other. If you are a gay woman playing a female PC but don't like the devout, girly-girl (shoes, hair, etc), Leliana, you have no other option. In DAO if you are a gay man playing as a male PC but are uncomfortable with Zevran's free sexuality, you have no other option. The woman can't choose to romance the bad girl, and the man can't choose the nice boy. This problem is eliminated with DA2.

I'd say that optiosn are not relevant. To me anyway.

The world doesn't exist for the sole purpose of throwing a perfect romance in your lap. And a game designed to do that is spending waaay too much time on that.
But then again, that's me talking and I wouldn't mind having no romances at all. After all, you can't satisfy everyone no matter what you try, so why even bother with half-assed solutions that attempt to do that?

You can make a 100 romance NPC's and there is still no guarantee I would love any of them.

[Taint Master]

Dirgegun wrote...

 'girl, I'm so glad your a girl, girl. I don't like anyone but girls, girl' or alternatively 'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

If romance has to mention what gender they're into every other sentence, or at all, it would get more than one eyeroll from me.

When has a romance in a Bioware game ever been written like that?

Real people have real sexual preferences.  And those preferences don't change just because you take interest in them.  Do you really want characters that are so blatantly malleable?

I personally would welcome a lesbian character that refuses my male Inquisitor's advances if it meant staying true to her character and vice versa.

[Dirgegun]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

You know what would be really visionary, and would fix some of the atrocious attitudes around here?

Compulsory LGBT love life in the game; Now bear with me! I know it sounds crazy, but you can't help wondering if some of the heteronormative and homophobic attitudes we see displayed might be snapped sharply into line if people had to walk a mile in the shoes of a gay or transsexual person - as well as get the abuse they have to deal with on a daily basis. Wouldn't it be much more fun for people to have their inappropriate and totally unacceptable attitudes adjusted for them for a few hours each day rather than prance about staring at a woman's backside, doing just the sort of heteronormative straight male stuff that has caused all of these problems in the first place?

There was actually a game on kickstarter that was about these two lesbian characters. I wish I had kept up with it and found what became of the idea. The story and characters looked possitively beautiful and I'm mad at myself for losing the link. 

[Xilizhra]

Taint Master wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

 'girl, I'm so glad your a girl, girl. I don't like anyone but girls, girl' or alternatively 'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

If romance has to mention what gender they're into every other sentence, or at all, it would get more than one eyeroll from me.

When has a romance in a Bioware game ever been written like that?

Real people have real sexual preferences.  And those preferences don't change just because you take interest in them.  Do you really want characters that are so blatantly malleable?

I personally would welcome a lesbian character that refuses my male Inquisitor's advances if it meant staying true to her character and vice versa.

It's not a single person who's warping previously established sexualities, it's those sexualities being written to be accommodating (bisexual/demisexual/whatever) previously.