1981 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can make a 100 romance NPC's and there is still no guarantee I would love any of them.

This is true. But the more there are the odds increase that you will like one!

[milena87]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Yeah, but they forgot to write an ending that time. Better to have the LI bisexuals and allow for more resources to be put into the actual story.

[Plaintiff]

LarryDavid wrote...
You can say that for you DA2's way seems the fairest option and thats it.

Yes, I can. And I did.

- Is fair about serving the majority?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

- Is fair about maximizing total happiness?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

- Is fair about a correct representation?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

Basically, you have used your own desires to define 'fairness' for yourself and then you try to use this definition as something objective in this discussion, which is very unwise in my opinion. You can't take the moral high ground if you have noting objective to back you up.

Or you could read my posts and not make crap up.

Before the BSN I never wondered about the representation of minorities in games.

That tells me all I need to know about you.

Till a long while ago when I read a post about someone who complained about the presence of LGBTs in games and said it would be nice if that would change. So, I thought 'why not?' what she asks for does not conflict with my selfish interests and if it really makes her happy I'm all for it. But then you start reading BS things like 'Bioware SHOULD do this', 'straight privilege', 'equal representation', 'fairness', ... and slowly I'm starting to change my mind. If a child keeps crying for a cookie, giving it encourages the child to be noisy everytime it wants something ...

Yeah, homosexuals are soooooooooooo selfish. Why don't they ask for important things, like the rest of BSN? Armor customisation! More specialisations! Bangable Qunari! Orlesian War Poodles! Masquerade Balls! Spears and rapiers!

Those are the issues that really matter!

Jesus Christ

[Welsh Inferno]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, to clarify, you are saying you'd rather have more options for straight romances?

As a straight male, I would actually be happier if there were more homosexual options than straight options in the game if it avoids all of the options being PC-sexual. If Morrigan(My favorate fictional character of all time) was created and established as a lesbian, then so ****ing be it! All this talk of "fairness" irritates me. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

[Xilizhra]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, to clarify, you are saying you'd rather have more options for straight romances?

As a straight male, I would actually be happier if there were more homosexual options than straight options in the game if it avoids all of the options being PC-sexual. If Morrigan(My favorate fictional character of all time) was created and established as a lesbian, then so ****ing be it! All this talk of "fairness" irritates me. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

As you are dealing with romance options being as they are. It works out nicely.

[Ravensword]

milena87 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Yeah, but they forgot to write an ending that time. Better to have the LI bisexuals and allow for more resources to be put into the actual story.

So the ending to ME3 wouldn't have sucked if they simply made every character playersexual? That's the first time I ever heard that.

[Dirgegun]

Taint Master wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

 'girl, I'm so glad your a girl, girl. I don't like anyone but girls, girl' or alternatively 'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

If romance has to mention what gender they're into every other sentence, or at all, it would get more than one eyeroll from me.

When has a romance in a Bioware game ever been written like that?

Real people have real sexual preferences.  And those preferences don't change just because you take interest in them.  Do you really want characters that are so blatantly malleable?

I personally would welcome a lesbian character that refuses my male Inquisitor's advances if it meant staying true to her character and vice versa.

I never said any of the characters were like that, it was a response to some of the replies here that implied they want all the gender mentioning. I also notice that you deleted a lot of my post and the main point I was making to focus on that small fragment. 

If Bioware could make an equal ammount of characters for the different sexualities? Then I would be okay with that, but considering the game is not about romance, and that the romances are about adding immersion and an extra layer to the character you play, then I don't mind that the PC has them all available to him/her. That doesn't mean they're playersexual however. Some might be bisexual, pansexual, or demisexual.  

[Xilizhra]

Ravensword wrote...

milena87 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Yeah, but they forgot to write an ending that time. Better to have the LI bisexuals and allow for more resources to be put into the actual story.

So the ending to ME3 wouldn't have sucked if they simply made every character playersexual? That's the first time I ever heard that.

I think they meant "forgot to write an ending to the romance."

[Plaintiff]

Dirgegun wrote...
'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

You certainly have a way with words, I wish you wrote the romances.

Take me now.

[Taint Master]

Xilizhra wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

 'girl, I'm so glad your a girl, girl. I don't like anyone but girls, girl' or alternatively 'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

If romance has to mention what gender they're into every other sentence, or at all, it would get more than one eyeroll from me.

When has a romance in a Bioware game ever been written like that?

Real people have real sexual preferences.  And those preferences don't change just because you take interest in them.  Do you really want characters that are so blatantly malleable?

I personally would welcome a lesbian character that refuses my male Inquisitor's advances if it meant staying true to her character and vice versa.

It's not a single person who's warping previously established sexualities, it's those sexualities being written to be accommodating (bisexual/demisexual/whatever) previously.

That's just it though.  If a character is written explicitly as bisexual, it can work fine (ie Leliana, Zevran, Isabella etc).  But the rest were written without that aspect of their character developed at all, only to have it filled in by the player's choice.  That greatly cheapens them imo.

[Gotholhorakh]

Dirgegun wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

You know what would be really visionary, and would fix some of the atrocious attitudes around here?

Compulsory LGBT love life in the game; Now bear with me! I know it sounds crazy, but you can't help wondering if some of the heteronormative and homophobic attitudes we see displayed might be snapped sharply into line if people had to walk a mile in the shoes of a gay or transsexual person - as well as get the abuse they have to deal with on a daily basis. Wouldn't it be much more fun for people to have their inappropriate and totally unacceptable attitudes adjusted for them for a few hours each day rather than prance about staring at a woman's backside, doing just the sort of heteronormative straight male stuff that has caused all of these problems in the first place?

There was actually a game on kickstarter that was about these two lesbian characters. I wish I had kept up with it and found what became of the idea. The story and characters looked possitively beautiful and I'm mad at myself for losing the link. 

That sounds amazing! Searching kickstarter is a mess for me, so let us know if you find it again. There is a movement to get more LGBTQ games out there, but some gamers give other things higher priority than that - in this day and age. I guess bigotry is probably a big part of that.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 28 juin 2013 - 01:32 .

[Xilizhra]

That's just it though. If a character is written explicitly as bisexual, it can work fine (ie Leliana, Zevran, Isabella etc). But the rest were written without that aspect of their character developed at all, only to have it filled in by the player's choice. That greatly cheapens them imo.

Because their sexual orientation didn't dominate their personality? How's that cheapening? Anders brings up some differences if a male flirts with him, Isabela's obviously bisexual from the beginning, Fenris is accustomed to male interest (albeit for the wrong reasons in-universe), and Merrill shows no sign of coming from a culture that treats homosexual relationships differently.

No. As I said before I would rather have actual gay, bi, and straight
characters all together instead of faux bisexuality. If the romances
don't suit your needs. Too bad. There are more to the characters than
the romance sidequests.

Why are you saying "too bad" when we have what we want already and you're the one complaining?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 juin 2013 - 01:35 .

[Dirgegun]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...
'I'm so glad your a handsome man, handsome man. I don't like anyone but handsome men, and you're so manly and handsome and manly.'

You certainly have a way with words, I wish you wrote the romances.

Take me now.

I do, don't I? Bioware should totally hire me. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 01:42 .

[LarryDavid]

Xilizhra wrote...

- Is fair about serving the majority? If their is a majority of players that only want stricktly straight LIs, is DA2's way then the fairest?

There isn't. The "majority" doesn't give a crap about romance; beyond that, I think very few people are actively out for making more straight LIs.

- Is fair about maximizing total happiness? If we take into consideration what each player wants AND how important it is for them; will it turn out that DA2's implementation is the optimal solution?

Yes.

- Is fair about a correct representation? With 'a' the probability of not being straight, the combination of sexual orientation of the followers in DAO is (1-a)^2/a^2 more likely than the combination in DA2. Lets be generous and say that a=0.05, we then obtain a factor of over 350. Or maybe you want to know how many followers (=n) are needed in order for it to be more likely that there are 1 or more non straight followers. That would be n=ln(0.5)/ln(1-a) or 14 with a=0.05. So if there are less than 14 followers it is most likely that they are all straight.

I'm fairly sure your math is off, and given the different races in DA, it won't even apply to nonhumans.

Before the BSN I never wondered about the representation of minorities in games. Till a long while ago when I read a post about someone who complained about the presence of LGBTs in games and said it would be nice if that would change. So, I thought 'why not?' what she asks for does not conflict with my selfish interests and if it really makes her happy I'm all for it. But then you start reading BS things like 'Bioware SHOULD do this', 'straight privilege', 'equal representation', 'fairness', ... and slowly I'm starting to change my mind. If a child keeps crying for a cookie, giving it encourages the child to be noisy everytime it wants something ...

And it does not harm you in any way.

Although not clearly stated, I was speaking about the majority of the people who care. What you think is completely irrelevant (no offence). If you want to make an absolute statement about fairness you must be able to back that up with objective facts. And you have (givven) none.

I haven't put that much effort into it but I think the math is oke. There are 6 followers in DAO and DA2 and there is always a 4/2 combination so its about the 2 followers that differ. And the other formule is derived from 1-(1-a)^n > 0.5, which also seems the right equation.

It annoys me.

[Taint Master]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's just it though. If a character is written explicitly as bisexual, it can work fine (ie Leliana, Zevran, Isabella etc). But the rest were written without that aspect of their character developed at all, only to have it filled in by the player's choice. That greatly cheapens them imo.

Because their sexual orientation didn't dominate their personality?

No, because it didn't factor into their character at all.

I want complete characters, whos preferences are independent of my M/F toggle at character creation.  Not a bunch of relatively blank slates inserted to meet a quota.

[Welsh Inferno]

@Xil

Leliana's sexual orientation doesn't dominate her personality either. It is simply a PART of her character. One part. Not be a big deal in the real world sure, but in the gaming industry where they can only fit so much dialogue into the actual game, each part of the character then becomes more important. So then making every single romancable character have the same trait seems tacky.

[Welsh Inferno]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I want complete characters, whos preferences are independent of my M/F toggle at character creation. Not a bunch of relatively blank slates inserted to meet a quota.

+1

+2

[daaaav]

Taint Master wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's just it though. If a character is written explicitly as bisexual, it can work fine (ie Leliana, Zevran, Isabella etc). But the rest were written without that aspect of their character developed at all, only to have it filled in by the player's choice. That greatly cheapens them imo.

Because their sexual orientation didn't dominate their personality?

No, because it didn't factor into their character at all.

I want complete characters, whos preferences are independent of my M/F toggle at character creation.  Not a bunch of relatively blank slates inserted to meet a quota.

This I guess. If certain folk can't accept that other folk can adopt this position whilst simultaneously believing in equal rights for human beings, then I don't know what to say.

[Kathlyn]

I also dislike the everyone is bi-sexual way of handling sexuality in DA2. Sexuality is a big part of someones personality, it affects their relationships and how they interact with people. To me a straight Leliana (for example) is a different person than a lesbian and/or bi Leli. (Personally playing a straight female in the game I never feel as 'sisterly' or can be as comfortable with Leli as Morri eventhough I like Leli more because I have to be careful what I say as to not lead her on since she is interested, as an example.) Making everyone bi is in my opinion a lazy way of handling the situation especially since they just wrote one generic romance story for each character, opposed to DAO where both Zev and Leliana had different dialgues and romance paths depending on the gender of the warden and there were discussions about their sexuality.

I also want to see gay characters in the game and I think it can be done fairly easily. My thought was to have 3 choices for each gender, straight, bi and gay, that way for each gender and sexuality you have at least 2 options. In DA2, you could have made Isabella bi (that seems to suit her history/personality better) Merrill gay and then make Aveline a straight option for the warden (which seems like it was at some point given some of the dialogue) for the guys make either Fenris or Anders gay (I would vote for Anders being bi, only because he talks so much about finding a pretty girl in DAA, but so much about him was changed why not that) and then make Varrik an option (I thought he was the most interesting of everyone in the game and very romancable and I don't get DA aversion to dwarf romances.)

DAO keep Morrigan straight, Leli bi (as suits her life as bard and history) and then make Wynne younger and gay. For guys keep Alistair straight, Zev bi (as again suits history) and then an added gay character (note Jowan was orginally supposed to be a companion, that may have worked, but you get the idea).

Not all options are ever available to you, that's life. If you choose to play a straight or gay or even the choice of male or female, then certain options should not be available in the game, as in life. Anytime a character has a perference whether for fine cheeses or delicate shoes or antivan leather it makes the character stronger, more interesting and more memorable and more like a real person. Sexuality is no different and probably more so than the others. Everyone being bi, is just not realistic.

[Ziggeh]

Welsh Inferno wrote...
All this talk of "fairness" irritates me. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

But you'd like it to be, right?

And if you were posting your prefences on a forum read by the creators of reality, would you be saying "screw fairness"?

Games are not reality. They are fiction. I would like the things I like in the fiction I like. I would be surprised to hear other people did not feel the same.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 28 juin 2013 - 01:50 .

[Ziggeh]

Taint Master wrote...
I want complete characters, whos preferences are independent of my M/F toggle at character creation.  Not a bunch of relatively blank slates inserted to meet a quota.

Is that the case? 

The characters are blank slates?

[Dirgegun]

Or, you know, maybe they're not all bisexual, but some are pansexual or demisexual, or simply don't feel the need to talk about it? That happens too. I don't agree that the characters 'change' sexuality, but it's impossible for me to argue this point with those here who think they DO because it's a matter of perceptions and judging the character by the relationship you just so happen to see them in. That isn't an invalid view, it's just one that makes a proper discussion difficult.