1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Dirgegun]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
-

Derp.

Plaintiff was pointing out how someone you seemed to agree with claimed characters are virtually blank slates unless they have a specific gender (or genders) they find attractive. Never mind that none of the DA2 characters are what we could call 'blank slates' as they all have their issues, likes, dislikes, and personal vandettas. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 02:29 .

[Ieldra]

Dirgegun wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) It affects suspension of disbelief and world integrity. People aren't bi as a rule, and I can't believe in a world where the majority is. I know we're expected to treat every playthrough as an AU, but that's not how things work on the emotional level once you know things work differently in another's playthrough. 

Suspension of disbelief, like immersion is far too personal and subjective a thing to really hold up as an argument, but I do agree that despite it relying on knowledge external to the gameplay we likely percieve them as bisexual and will concede this can affect your ability to "immerse", largely because you're forced into a position of using external knowledge when navigating the relationship.

But here's the thing: the reason we get tripped up mentally on issues like that is because there really aren't parallels for this kind of storytelling. We're attempting to apply the methods of engagement we have with films and books - inflexible narratives - and it doesn't always work. Bioware are literally in the process of defining the ways in which such interacting storytelling will be interpreted. We and they are learning how to write and view this maturing medium.

And while it is maturing, isn't it better to include, and thus teach useful habits, such as drawing lines of distinction between gameplays?

That's the problem indeed. Games represent a new way of storytelling, and I'm absolutely for experimenting with ways to improve it. All I'm saying that at this moment, "everyone is bi" makes the romances feel less real to me and the DAO romances feel quite a bit more real because everyone has a defined in-world sexual orientation and it's not all bi. Maybe they can do something to improve it, maybe it's I who must adapt, maybe we need a different solution, but at the moment, I do not find the sole realized example of the new setup convincing and I'd rather have something like in DAO.

Honestly, I think it had less to do with gender and more to do with how much you could speak with the DA:O romance options and companions. In DA2 you don't get too many conversations with your companions, and most of the conversations, aside from one or two, are all about their issues. In DA:O you could speak with your companions about more than the blight and their personal hang up. 

In DA:O you got to ask everyone about their history, where they'd come from, and what events in their past had shaped them. In DA2 you got less of that, and so you didn't feel quite as connected with the characters in general, despite how Hawke is supposed to have known these people for years.

It may be that. I'm open for DAI to convince me it was that, but for that the companions need more depth than they had in DA2, where they were all more or less single-issue archetypes.

[ThisIsZad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In any case I am off to bed.

Hope you dream about little cuddly pink ponies and mighty red griffins ^^

[Welsh Inferno]

Plaintiff wrote...

You actively supported the notion that a character without a defined sexuality is a blank slate. It's right there, I quoted you.

You can backpedal now, if you want. But please stick to your guns this time.

You know damn well that post isnt implying that a characters sexuality is ALL there is to them.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 28 juin 2013 - 02:46 .

[garrusfan1]

I don't think it does as long as some dialogue changes depending on the gender. they can have strong writing either way.

[Plaintiff]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You actively supported the notion that a character without a defined sexuality is a blank slate. It's right there, I quoted you.

You can backpedal now, if you want. But please stick to your guns this time.

You know damn well that post isnt implying that a characters sexuality is ALL there is to them.

Nothing about a character is "all" there is to them, but Bioware doesn't get crap about the characters being blank slates when they withhold information about favourite colours or pizza toppings.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think everyone should just ignore Plaintiff. It's clear his intention is to paint you as a bigot if you don't agree with his views.

Classy.

[Sutekh]

Kathlyn wrote...

Not all options are ever available to you, that's life.

If I wanted games to be like life, I wouldn't play ones where I fight tainted abominations, dragons, cast spells, travel to dream realms, wipe out whole armies almost single-handedly and can become ruler of a country or a city.

It's also actually nice not to have the same limitations and the same crap thrown at my character as what I have to put up with IRL.

That isn't to say I wouldn't like some rejection or unrequited feelings in game for time to time (be there romance or friendship, btw) because it makes for good emotional drama and all that jazz, but I don't see why it has to be based on gender only.

As for realism, something becomes unrealistic when it clashes with the internal rules of the setting, not with IRL ones. People being blind to an elf / human relationship is much more unrealistic in regard to Thedas than an o/s one or bisexual people.


On another note,

syllogi wrote...

not all people who identify as bisexual are extroverted, sexually liberated, charming rogues.

Thank you.

I keep reading that DA2 LIs bisexuality isn't characterized enough (which "cheapens" them, and, interestingly enough, with the exception of Isabela), and here I am wondering what characterization we're talking about.

Modifié par Sutekh, 28 juin 2013 - 04:27 .

[Ziggeh]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It would be nice if they stopped with the depraved bisexual archetype

Err. Yeah. One mans sexual agency is another mans depraved, I guess.

[Dirgegun]

Morocco Mole wrote...

It would be nice if they stopped with the depraved bisexual archetype

Zevran and Isabela owning their sexuality and being sexually empowered doesn't make them depraved. It's just wrong to think that anyone with a sexuality that isn't 'clear cut' hetrosexual  or homosexual is always sexually liberal.  

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 03:10 .

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"

[Ravensword]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"

That'll get you the banhammer. When that happens, Plaintiff will make a blog post--in Auld Wulf fashion--scorning the moderators for banning him in.

[LobselVith8]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, to clarify, you are saying you'd rather have more options for straight romances?

As a straight male, I would actually be happier if there were more homosexual options than straight options in the game if it avoids all of the options being PC-sexual. If Morrigan(My favorate fictional character of all time) was created and established as a lesbian, then so ****ing be it! All this talk of "fairness" irritates me. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

I think allowing gay and bisexual players more romance options is what makes Dragon Age stand out from many other games, as well as allowing the player to play as a character who isn't straight.

As for PC-sexual, isn't that an issue of the companions being willing to romance a main character who has completely different morals and ethics than they do, rather than being inclusive to gay and bisexual protagonists?

[nightscrawl]

Ew double post, sorry.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 28 juin 2013 - 03:16 .

[nightscrawl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

No I think Zevran is just plain old depraved.

Did you ever complete the Zevran romance? =/

[Gotholhorakh]

Plaintiff wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
-

Derp.

You actively supported the notion that a character without a defined sexuality is a blank slate. It's right there, I quoted you.

You can backpedal now, if you want. But please stick to your guns this time.

I don't think you're being fair - perhaps unintentionally. It seems really obvious that wasn't what was being implied at all.

[Dirgegun]

Morocco Mole wrote...

No I think Zevran is just plain old depraved.

He was raised in a brothel and then sold into slavery, where he was tortured, raised to be a killer, and saw the other boys who were baught by the Crows slaughtered, and because of this developed a lifestyle where he took pleasures where he could and tried to keep himself from growing close to anyone, as he learnt that tended to end very, very badly for him. And despite how he appears to be laidback and happy-go-lucky in a sense, he accepted the job to track down the Warden because he wanted to die. It was suicide attempt. 

...None of that makes him depraved. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 03:22 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Just one thing:

Plaintiff wrote...
Gender is by and large socially constructed. The only substantial differences between men and women are purely physical.

Nonsense. This might be the assumption of some (or all?) gender studies classes, but it is in no way scientifically proven. The assumption that physical differences exist with virtually no correspondent psychological differences is rather absurd, really.

[milena87]

Ravensword wrote...

milena87 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Yeah, but they forgot to write an ending that time. Better to have the LI bisexuals and allow for more resources to be put into the actual story.

So the ending to ME3 wouldn't have sucked if they simply made every character playersexual? That's the first time I ever heard that.

Of course not, I didn't want to imply anything of the like. It was just that in ME3 they did put a lot of effort into the little things, but failed to deliver on one of the most important aspect of the game: the actual plot.

For DAI I'd like the team to focus on the important things, and considering that I fail to see how LI bisexuals could hurt anyone's enjoyment of the game, resources and time could be better spent somewhere else. Like a good sidequest.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"

Well if it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it.