1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Just one thing:

Plaintiff wrote...
Gender is by and large socially constructed. The only substantial differences between men and women are purely physical.

Nonsense. This might be the assumption of some (or all?) gender studies classes, but it is in no way scientifically proven. The assumption that physical differences exist with virtually no correspondent psychological differences is rather absurd, really.

I'd ask, but I already know you're going to trot out some 'women are natural homemakers' bullcrap.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
Just one thing:

Plaintiff wrote...
Gender is by and large socially constructed. The only substantial differences between men and women are purely physical.

Nonsense. This might be the assumption of some (or all?) gender studies classes, but it is in no way scientifically proven. The assumption that physical differences exist with virtually no correspondent psychological differences is rather absurd, really.

I'd ask, but I already know you're going to trot out some 'women are natural homemakers' bullcrap.

GodWood wrote...
Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"

[Lee80]

Sorry I didn't read this whole tread, but I noticed Allan asked at one point what LGBT people thought of the romance options in DA2. So as a member of that community I would have to say I loved the romance options. They never seemed forced or unrealistic. Bisexual characters in a video game seem like a very smart way to go, when you want to put more options in a game.

I played the game in several different ways to experience being a gay male hawke, bi male hawke, and even once a straight hawke. I felt all 3 versions of him and his intereacitons with the characters were extremely believable.

I was especially impressed with the character of Fenris. I always felt the voice acting and the writing for him was exceptionally well done. I felt myself caring about his plight and it broke my heart a bit when he ended the relationship in act 2, and was thrilled when it started back up in act 3. Great work bioware!

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
Just one thing:

Plaintiff wrote...
Gender is by and large socially constructed. The only substantial differences between men and women are purely physical.

Nonsense. This might be the assumption of some (or all?) gender studies classes, but it is in no way scientifically proven. The assumption that physical differences exist with virtually no correspondent psychological differences is rather absurd, really.

I'd ask, but I already know you're going to trot out some 'women are natural homemakers' bullcrap.

GodWood wrote...
Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"

If I was going to spout ad hominems, at least I'd come up with two new ones in a row. Jeez.

[Ravensword]

milena87 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

milena87 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

It'd also be nice to have a world as big as Skyrim and as fleshed-out as DAO simultaneously, but there's that pesky resource problem.

Which is why they should cut romances anyway, but that isn't the topic.

They made Steve and Samantha. Two gay characters. So that excuse isn't going to fly as well anymore.

Yeah, but they forgot to write an ending that time. Better to have the LI bisexuals and allow for more resources to be put into the actual story.

So the ending to ME3 wouldn't have sucked if they simply made every character playersexual? That's the first time I ever heard that.

Of course not, I didn't want to imply anything of the like. It was just that in ME3 they did put a lot of effort into the little things, but failed to deliver on one of the most important aspect of the game: the actual plot.

For DAI I'd like the team to focus on the important things, and considering that I fail to see how LI bisexuals could hurt anyone's enjoyment of the game, resources and time could be better spent somewhere else. Like a good sidequest.

Yes. Also, having a competent lead writer would've done wonder, but that's neither here nor there.

Too much time is spent on a small part of the game, or at least it seems that way. I really have no stake in the whole romances thing, but I like to keep my options open.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

If I was going to spout ad hominems, at least I'd come up with two new ones in a row. Jeez.

Well, you failed.

I haven't made any ad hominem attacks.

[Ravensword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

If I was going to spout ad hominems, at least I'd come up with two new ones in a row. Jeez.


Well, you failed.

I haven't made any ad hominem attacks.

Seriously?

You just did w/ that Lennard guy by ignoring his argument and directly attacking him as probably being a guy who thinks that "'all women are natural homemakers' crap." Couldn't you have at least given him the opportunity to prove that he actually thinks that way rather than jumping to that conclusion?

Modifié par Ravensword, 28 juin 2013 - 03:52 .

[Hazegurl]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

That's actually what I love about making all the LI characters available. Why should a person's personality, development, and so on be based on their sexuality? Does making Commander Shepard gay make him any different of a renegade or paragon than a player playing a straight Shepard? Does making Hawke gay change the personality the player chooses to play him as? I love having the characters defined as what and who they are rather than what gender they wish to bed.

[Ziggeh]

milena87 wrote...

Of course not, I didn't want to imply anything of the like. It was just that in ME3 they did put a lot of effort into the little things, but failed to deliver on one of the most important aspect of the game: the actual plot.

Firstly, that's really, really not how the allocation of resources works.

Secondly, that assumes the ME3 ending was the result of a lack of effort, rather than a poor idea. No amount of polish was making that particular faeces shine.

Thirdly, exactly how many romances do you think a good sidequest would cost?  

[ThisIsZad]

[Spam post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 28 juin 2013 - 10:33 .

[Stalker]

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic, but I still found the player-sexual / bisexual characters very irritating.

When there is a character presented to me I want him/her to be settled on one point of view regarding sexuality, not bending themselves for the protagonist / horny player behind. I don't like how 8 out of 10 characters were written bisexual because otherwise people would whine about how they can't romance them.
It's not only getting unrealistic, but there is also a very obvious pattern: you see an important character and can directly tell (s)he's bisexual because one side of the medal couldn't deal with the rejection of a fictional character. If they meet a confident character and (s)he is not of the same sexuality, a few then even go as far as accusing BioWare of being homophobic for not opening them every option. Obviously, BioWare must work against that reputation and includes more options in future games.

I am convinced that if people (straight and gay) would just stop whining about it, the writing of ME may be taken a little more serious.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 28 juin 2013 - 04:09 .

[Plaintiff]

Ravensword wrote...
You just did w/ that Lennard guy by ignoring his argument and directly attacking him as probably being a guy who thinks that "'all women are natural homemakers' crap."

I did nothing of the kind. I have no idea what Lennard's gender is, and I wouldn't assume their gender because I know full well that many women do in fact believe similar garbage. I am not so naive as to think that all women universally support gender equality.

Stating "I already know how this argument is going to go" is not an ad hominem.

Couldn't you have at least given him the opportunity to prove that he actually thinks that way rather than jumping to that conclusion?

Lennard had the opportunity to elaborate when they made the post in the first place. The fact that they failed to substantiate their assertion immediatly is a big part of why I'm willing to bet money on what Lennard was going to say.

As it is, I haven't taken the opportunity from him (or her) at all, it still exists. If Lennard thinks his/her argument will truly dazzle me, then they're welcome to make the attempt right now, and if I'm successfully convinced, I'll admit I was wrong.  Last I checked, my "sick burns" don't render people incapable of communication.

Although I really really wish they did.

[GodWood]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Modifié par GodWood, 28 juin 2013 - 04:04 .

[Hazegurl]

nightscrawl wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

So why not make a PC of the opposite gender and play that?

Maybe I don't want to play a guy? I had never made a male character in DAO until recently and it took quite a while for me to make a male Hawke. Part of the reason is appearance (I couldn't create a decent male in DAO), and another is that I prefer to play as the gender I am.

Let's take the DAO companions. Both of the women and both of the men are opposites of each other. If you are a gay woman playing a female PC but don't like the devout, girly-girl (shoes, hair, etc), Leliana, you have no other option. In DAO if you are a gay man playing as a male PC but are uncomfortable with Zevran's free sexuality, you have no other option. The woman can't choose to romance the bad girl, and the man can't choose the nice boy. This problem is eliminated with DA2.

Right, It sucked that my gay Cousland only had the option to romance one random elf man who admits to banging anything that isn't nailed down and on top of it all prefers women anyway.  Don't get me wrong, I liked romancing Zevran, or better yet I enjoyed having my gay warden bang him whenever but the only time I cared at all about the releationship was when Zevran turned him down then when I talked to him later he opened up.  But still, I would have liked to have had Alistair as an option or at least another male LI.

[Ziggeh]

Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic

There's really no need to do that. If anything it detracts from your point.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 28 juin 2013 - 04:05 .

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

If I didn't think the people who disagree with me are idiots, I wouldn't disagree with them.

I'd ask, but I already know you're going to trot out some 'women are natural homemakers' bullcrap.

Probably more in here somewhere.

You know what? I'll concede number 3.

Good job, Morocco Mole. Savor this victory.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

[Maclimes]

This thread has evolved into a new, compelling, and totally constructive conversation. I'm glad this is happening.

[Plaintiff]

Ziggeh wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic

There's really no need to do that. If anything it detracts from your point.

No, no, if anything, everybody should make this declaration at the start of any post on this topic. You can't be a homophobe if you say you aren't.

It would totally cripple all of my arguments, it's like Plaintiff kryptonite.

And don't forget to mention your gay friend/s. Each gay friend is a +1 to sociopolitical insight.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

Homosexual relationships are between people of the same sex. Heterosexual relationships are not.

You should know this.

Modifié par GodWood, 28 juin 2013 - 04:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

GodWood wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Granted, the difference is likely less pronounced than in reality considering how little prejudice there is against homosexuals in Thedas.