1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

Homosexual relationships are between people of the same sex. Heterosexual relationships are not.

You should know this.

Hurr durr. You said that it's impossible for the gender of the partner to be the only difference, and that different genders inherently necessitate further differences.

Elaborate. List them.

[Heavensrun]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I haven't made any ad hominem attacks.

I'll list a few

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

If I didn't think the people who disagree with me are idiots, I wouldn't disagree with them.

I'd ask, but I already know you're going to trot out some 'women are natural homemakers' bullcrap.

Probably more in here somewhere.

I'm coming in the side door here, but I have to address this, because it's a pet peeve of mine.

"I think you're a jerk" is not an ad hominem.

"Your argument is invalid because your handwriting sucks" is an ad hominem.

An ad hominem is an effort to distract from someone's argument by criticising their personal character.  Most egregiously when you criticise something about their personal character that has nothing to do with the argument.  Example:  A murder witness gives testimony that she saw the suspect threaten the victim, take out a gun, shoot him three times in he chest, then threaten her if she ever says anything. The defense counters by pointing out that she's a prostitute and a drug addict, even though they can't prove she was under the influence of anything at the time.

That isn't valid if the accusation is actually relevant to the argument.  A scientist criticising another scientist for having terrible laboratory skills, or a plaintiff in a discrimination case pointing out that the defendant is a member of the KKK is relevant.

It also isn't valid if the insult isn't tied to a dismissal of the argument.  "You're an idiot" and "You're a bigot" are examples of insults, not ad hominim attacks.  Rude, sure, but not an ad hominim.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

There's another ad-hominem.

I said I hadn't made any, not that I never make any.

[Stalker]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

You can't seriously tell me that you think straight and gay people act exactly the same around people...

[Heavensrun]

Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic, but I still found the player-sexual / bisexual characters very irritating.

When there is a character presented to me I want him/her to be settled on one point of view regarding sexuality, not bending themselves for the protagonist / horny player behind. I don't like how 8 out of 10 characters were written bisexual because otherwise people would whine about how they can't romance them.
It's not only getting unrealistic, but there is also a very obvious pattern: you see an important character and can directly tell (s)he's bisexual because one side of the medal couldn't deal with the rejection of a fictional character. If they meet a confident character and (s)he is not of the same sexuality, a few then even go as far as accusing BioWare of being homophobic for not opening them every option. Obviously, BioWare must work against that reputation and includes more options in future games.

I am convinced that if people (straight and gay) would just stop whining about it, the writing of ME may be taken a little more serious.

Dude, REAL PEOPLE aren't settled on one point of view regarding sexuality.

[GodWood]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Granted, the difference is likely less pronounced than in reality considering how little prejudice there is against homosexuals in Thedas.

Regardless of how little prejudice there is in Thedas in regards to homosexual relationships it'd still make a difference in how the person is perceived (positive, negative or simply different).

Of course how other's perceive them was not the only nor the most important thing I was referring to.

[Stalker]

Heavensrun wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic, but I still found the player-sexual / bisexual characters very irritating.

When there is a character presented to me I want him/her to be settled on one point of view regarding sexuality, not bending themselves for the protagonist / horny player behind. I don't like how 8 out of 10 characters were written bisexual because otherwise people would whine about how they can't romance them.
It's not only getting unrealistic, but there is also a very obvious pattern: you see an important character and can directly tell (s)he's bisexual because one side of the medal couldn't deal with the rejection of a fictional character. If they meet a confident character and (s)he is not of the same sexuality, a few then even go as far as accusing BioWare of being homophobic for not opening them every option. Obviously, BioWare must work against that reputation and includes more options in future games.

I am convinced that if people (straight and gay) would just stop whining about it, the writing of ME may be taken a little more serious.

Dude, REAL PEOPLE aren't settled on one point of view regarding sexuality.

You may go ahead and give me an example of who is not.
I can't think of any sexual orientation other than being attracted to men, women, both, or some unmentionable stuff. 

[Plaintiff]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

You can't seriously tell me that you think straight and gay people act exactly the same around people...

I see no reason why they shouldn't.

"Acting differently" is not a fundamental difference. Our actions are a response to any number of factors, including social pressures, unless you can demonstrate that certain behaviours are inherent to homosexuality.

[Ziggeh]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The biggest flaw in this argument is the assumption that all gay and straight people act exactly the same. And that they are not individuals with their own personalities

That's not the assumption, it's that there isn't a "gay" or "straight" way of acting, and thus you can have a character who can be both without being inconsistent. 

[Heavensrun]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.

Please, please elaborate on the fundamental differences between gay and straight relationships.

You can't seriously tell me that you think straight and gay people act exactly the same around people...

I suspect that you haven't actually thought this through, since I'm not totally sure what it means to "act exactly the same around people".  In the sense that their sexuality doesn't dictate who they are or how they act?  Yes.

Most people I interact with are totally oblivious to the fact that I'm bisexual.  I have friends in most corners of the human sexual spectrum, and unless the discussion wanders into the area of their partners or what they find attractive (or they're actually hitting on someone), most people assume they're straight.  I've also met both straight and gay people who act super femmy.  

Fact is, you probably know people who are gay or bisexual and have always assumed that they're straight because it's never come up.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Hurr durr. You said that it's impossible for the gender of the partner to be the only difference, and that different genders inherently necessitate further differences.

Elaborate. List them.

I don't think you could have misinterpreted what I said any more wrong.

If a character is "gay" in one universe and "straight" in another that'd change who they've had relationships with. Now unless in both universes both versions of the one character found 100% identical people, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with said character (except for the fact that they correspond with the appropriate sexuality), there would be a difference with how they were affected by that character.

Now of course Bioware could say that in both a character's gay universe and straight universe they have had relationships with characters who are 100% identical, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with them (except for the fact that their orientation matches up) but that'd be incredibly lazy.

Modifié par GodWood, 28 juin 2013 - 04:33 .

[Heavensrun]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic, but I still found the player-sexual / bisexual characters very irritating.

When there is a character presented to me I want him/her to be settled on one point of view regarding sexuality, not bending themselves for the protagonist / horny player behind. I don't like how 8 out of 10 characters were written bisexual because otherwise people would whine about how they can't romance them.
It's not only getting unrealistic, but there is also a very obvious pattern: you see an important character and can directly tell (s)he's bisexual because one side of the medal couldn't deal with the rejection of a fictional character. If they meet a confident character and (s)he is not of the same sexuality, a few then even go as far as accusing BioWare of being homophobic for not opening them every option. Obviously, BioWare must work against that reputation and includes more options in future games.

I am convinced that if people (straight and gay) would just stop whining about it, the writing of ME may be taken a little more serious.

Dude, REAL PEOPLE aren't settled on one point of view regarding sexuality.

You may go ahead and give me an example of who is not.
I can't think of any sexual orientation other than being attracted to men, women, both, or some unmentionable stuff. 

I was straight for twenty five years.

[Ravensword]

Silfren wrote...

I notice that in the threads pertaining to whether or not LIs should be playersexual or bisexual or whatever, a fairly common complaint is that by having LI companions available to all genders, characterization and story are both somehow watered down.  Some people seem to think that having romances at all brings down the quality of the writing, but most often I've noticed that the concern is specific toward the LIs being bisexual.  Personally I don't honestly see how simply making all the LIs available to any gender will affect either the overall story or the characterization of the Companions, so I'm curious why some people seem to think it's a given.  How were the DA2 characters unbelievable, and how can this be blamed on their availability as LIs.  For that matter, what about the bi characters from Origins?  Were they better written, or were they equally watered down? 

Please note: I am creating this topic in good faith; I am not asking about whether it is realistic to have all the LIs be playersexual/bisexual.  I don't care about whether people find it annoying to be hit on by opposite-gender Companions.  I don't really want to read about how Bioware is just pandering.  None of these are relevant to what I'd like to discuss, so please refrain from the off-topic comments or the childish potshots.  Thank you.

Requoting OP in order that we don't get off topic. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
Lennard had the opportunity to elaborate when they made the post in the first place. The fact that they failed to substantiate their assertion immediatly is a big part of why I'm willing to bet money on what Lennard was going to say.

First of all, my point didn't really need any substantiation. The central point of my post was that men and women having more or less identical psyches is not a scientifically proven fact. You are the one who made that assertion. Since you're the one who made a positive claim, it'd be entirely up to you to prove it.

Secondly, the assumption that a species that is sexually dimorphic in body is sexually monomorphic in mind is rather absurd. Biology does not differentiate between body and mind. Sexual dimorphism exists to account for the different roles of males and females in reproduction. There is no good reason for why this should only extend to the body, but not to the mind.

What are these psychological differences, in detail?

The most honest answer I can give is: I don't fully know.

It is difficult to differentiate between cultural and biological influences. And unlike you or the "women can only be homemakers"-crowd, I don't want to pretend to know something that I couldn't possibly prove. A good way to approach the truth would be to look at actual science, say studies on the psychological effects of hormones or evolutionary psychology. There's plenty of information on that out there.


On a side note:

Plaintiff wrote...
I did nothing of the kind. I have no idea what Lennard's gender is, and I wouldn't assume their gender because I know full well that many women do in fact believe similar garbage.

I don't know a single person in real life that actually believes that there is no psychological difference between men and women.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 28 juin 2013 - 04:43 .

[Stalker]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...
You can't seriously tell me that you think straight and gay people act exactly the same around people...

I see no reason why they shouldn't.

"Acting differently" is not a fundamental difference. Our actions are a response to any number of factors, including social pressures, unless you can demonstrate that certain behaviours are inherent to homosexuality.

Saying there is no difference between straight and gay is equal to saying men and women are the same. Of course it's not a fundamental difference. No trait is unless you are very generalizing. There are however, just some differences in the behaviour of sexualities.

The most obvious difference being that a person always acts completely different to another sex depending on their preference. A straight man would just talk... different to a woman than a gay man would. And I don't even mean directly hitting on her. There are certain ancient traits that you can't shrug off. Now if almost every fictional character reacts the same around both sexes, I think it's unrealistic.
I admit I am not exactly an experienced expert on gay interaction since only once I have met one convinced gay man, but you could see that he was gay. Not because he was talking in cliches, not because he was overly feminine, but because of the way he interacted with other males.

Making every fictional character openly attracted to both sexes and hitting on both in the same way is not realistic... for humans that is. People with different interests just act differently.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 28 juin 2013 - 04:54 .

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Hurr durr. You said that it's impossible for the gender of the partner to be the only difference, and that different genders inherently necessitate further differences.

Elaborate. List them.

I don't think you could have misinterpreted what I said any more wrong.

If a character is "gay" in one universe and "straight" in another that'd change who they've had relationships with. Now unless in both universes both versions of the one character found 100% identical people, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with said character (except for the fact that they correspond with the appropriate sexuality), there would be a difference with how they were affected by that character.

Now of course Bioware could say that in both a character's gay universe and straight universe they have had relationships with characters who are 100% identical, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with them (except for the fact that their orientation matches up) but that'd be incredibly lazy.

Well you phrased it really badly, man.

There's a dozen things Bioware could say. You listed only two possibilites. They could also say X character considered themselves straight/gay until Hawke came along, or that they still consider themselves straight/gay, but Hawke is an exception, or the character is bisexual, or pansexual, or they simply didn't think about it before now, or they're attracted to personality and genitals don't factor into the equation, or they just go with the flow, rather than overanalyzing what they feel and why.
 
Those are all perfectly valid positions to take, and there's probably more I haven't thought of. You can call it "lazy writing" if you want, but the alternative is a lengthy dialogue explaining that character's personal stance on sexual issues, and somehow I don't think you want that anymore than I do.

[Stalker]

Heavensrun wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Dude, REAL PEOPLE aren't settled on one point of view regarding sexuality.

You may go ahead and give me an example of who is not.
I can't think of any sexual orientation other than being attracted to men, women, both, or some unmentionable stuff. 

I was straight for twenty five years.

You changed your view at some point, but you were always convinced of one sexuality, no?
If say the protagonist is the one person who made said ficitonal character curious about the other sex and that is believably presented, I have absolutely no problem.  I would find that interesting.
What I have a problem with is that too many characters are crafted towards maximum tolerance and the player. Almost everyone I meet in Dragon Age 2 is convinced to be bisexual and I simply find that unbelievable and dull.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Well you phrased it really badly, man.

There's a dozen things Bioware could say. You listed only two possibilites. They could also say X character considered themselves straight/gay until Hawke came along, or that they still consider themselves straight/gay, but Hawke is an exception, or the character is bisexual, or pansexual, or they simply didn't think about it before now, or they're attracted to personality and genitals don't factor into the equation, or they just go with the flow, rather than overanalyzing what they feel and why.

Those are all varying degrees of tolerable.

This specific point was exclusively against the preference for character's sexualities to be exclusively determined by the sex of the PC (i.e. they're exclusively straight in one universe and exclusively gay in another).

[Silfren]

Cheylus wrote...

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

My thoughts exactly. I had a different feeling with DA2 and yet it's sometimes considered as an improvement over DA:O - where some romances can actually have a link to the plot.

I agree with this, but I honestly don't see how it applies to either of the DA games we've had.  Nothing about any of the romances even vaguely suggests that the sole purpose of any of the LIs is "self gratification."  That all gender/orientation flag requirements were removed does not change this. 

It is simply a fact that by having these characters available as LIs at all could be argued as them existing just to "get the PC laid." It is how well each character is written and how compelling their personal stories are that makes this less obvious, not unlike, I think, the fact that it is only good writing which makes plot railroading acceptable:  it's always there, but the better written the story is, the more invisible is the rail-roading.

[Stalker]

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

Basically my exact opinion.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Well you phrased it really badly, man.

There's a dozen things Bioware could say. You listed only two possibilites. They could also say X character considered themselves straight/gay until Hawke came along, or that they still consider themselves straight/gay, but Hawke is an exception, or the character is bisexual, or pansexual, or they simply didn't think about it before now, or they're attracted to personality and genitals don't factor into the equation, or they just go with the flow, rather than overanalyzing what they feel and why.

Those are all varying degrees of tolerable.

This specific point was exclusively against the preference for character's sexualities to be exclusively determined by the sex of the PC (i.e. they're exclusively straight in one universe and exclusively gay in another).

Well I don't know who made that argument, but it wasn't me.

I don't think why or how a character is attracted to Hawke (or anyone else, for that matter) is important at all.

Labels are self-identifiers. If I call myself gay, then I'm gay, even if someone sees me kiss a girl one time. If the LIs choose to eschew labels, then they don't have labels. Certainly the Bioware staff seem to resist the notion of labelling them.

[Il Divo]

Mr Massakka wrote...

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

Basically my exact opinion.

I'll go with this.