1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

GodWood wrote...

If a character is "gay" in one universe and "straight" in another that'd change who they've had relationships with. Now unless in both universes both versions of the one character found 100% identical people, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with said character (except for the fact that they correspond with the appropriate sexuality), there would be a difference with how they were affected by that character.

Now of course Bioware could say that in both a character's gay universe and straight universe they have had relationships with characters who are 100% identical, in the exact same place, at the exact same time and had the exact same experiences with them (except for the fact that their orientation matches up) but that'd be incredibly lazy.

That's obsurd. They're fictional characters, and if they can be "different" in one universe to another, the only reason them being the "same" would present a problem like that is if you're applying meta knowledge of the glaring consistency - which would entirely defeat the object of them being seperate characters.

[Silfren]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
Just read your OP. Here's my take on it:

Having LIs playersexual does not necessarity affect characterization or story, but it does affect two things:

(1) It limits options for characterization and behavior within the romance to those which would appear realistic or possible towards both genders, unless the romance distinguishes between PC genders while still being available for both.

(2) It affects suspension of disbelief and world integrity. People aren't bi as a rule, and I can't believe in a world where the majority is. I know we're expected to treat every playthrough as an AU, but that's not how things work on the emotional level once you know things work differently in another's playthrough.

The main effect for me personally is that DA2's romances felt less real than DAO's. It's not anything in the game in particular, what affects me is the knowledge that these characters don't have a sexual orientation which is part of them as other traits are, or, if they have one (bi) it's unbelievable that they all have it. They just fell less real.

I'd rather have a setup like in DAO.

The thing is, what appears realistic or possible here seems to be extremely dependent upon the bias that the player themselves bring to the table.  While I do not want to get into a discussion about real world sexual biology, I do not think it is correct that people are not bi as a rule.  I think it's actually the case that more people are bi than either totally straight or totally gay.  Sexuality is NOT rigid in most cases, but fluid, and also, social conventions--what society has to say about sexuality can and DOES have a direct effect on it.  Contrary to general opinion, biology is not the final answer.  The way certain real world cultures perceive sexual expression now is NOT the way all cultures in the world throughout the history of human beings have perceived it.  The history of Greece tends to be the go-to point for this, but it is by no means the only culture to look at to see that human sexuality has been treated much, MUCH differently in different eras than it is generally treated in the West today. 

With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent. 

I have been using playersexual throughout this thread, but having read what the Devs have said on the subject, I'm more or less of the opinion that it's something else brought to the table by the players, and not something actually in the game itself.

[Silfren]

Just a reminder: Could everyone please try to step back from the arguing? I don't have any illusions about this thread not eventually getting locked, but I'd like to maintain some civility and rational discourse for as long as possible.

Let's try to keep the discussions relevant to the OP, please.

[Ziggeh]

Silfren wrote...
I have been using playersexual throughout this thread, but having read what the Devs have said on the subject, I'm more or less of the opinion that it's something else brought to the table by the players, and not something actually in the game itself.

While I'd argue that's just authorial intent, I'd be goddamn fascinated to read how they consider branching narratives in terms of the validity of the branches.

[Thiefy]

The Hierophant wrote...

@ op - The real issue with DA's li is that the pc could hook up with them no matter how they behave or look, and rarely has a relationship ended as a result of the pc wiping their @ss with the companion's ideals/beliefs. The li lack preferences which barely puts them a step above your typical li in a generic anime styled dating sim.

as someone who has played those "anime styled dating sims" for years i can tell you from first hand experience that you couldn't be more wrong if your tried. most dating SIMS are ridiculously specific to the point where multiple save points and guide are needing in order to get the "best" ending.

what you and most people are referring to with such disdain is actually called a "visual novel". as the name suggest, it actually reads like a novel and there isn't actually any game play, generally speaking. the interface just a screen of some sort, be it phone, computer or other personal device, instead of a book.

but to go back on topic, at first i thought it was strange for all of the romance options to be player-sexual/bisexual, mostly because even though i have quite a few friends in the LGBT community, my straight ones out number them. for it to be flipped in a video game seemed bizarre. although the devs did make a good point about AUs and how different playthroughs ment different thoughts and decisions. A "gay" Fenris cannot coexsist alongside with a "straight" Fenris much the same way a Mage!Hawke cannot coexsist with a Rogue!Hawke. It's one or the other. Whether or not he is "bi" isn't information I'm privy to nor should I be. There are somethings that remain private to people and I don't care to make their personal business or sexual history part of my agenda. There's a really good chance some of my real life friends I just assume are straight are actually bisexual, bicurious or have dabbled in bisxuality and found out it's not for them.

A lot of people say "sexuality is part of a person's character" and for a while I used to subscribe to this. After thinking about it more though I'm going to have to go back on what I say. It's like saying race is part of a person's character. It's really isn't. A person's race or sexuality doesn't make someone act a certain way, or to be more specific "[insert character] doesn't act that way because of their race/sexuality."

What IS true is that OTHER PEOPLE act or treat them different because of those features, and what you see is a reaction to that experience. That reaction can, most of the time, be applied to the same type of situation with a different "context".

Let's play a game:

A random NPC approaches [Isabella] and treats her with disgust because [she's bisexual], she reacts by...

Well, you can imagine how she reacts.

Now, replace the second set of brackets with one of the following:
A) A woman
has floatation devices for breasts but the waiste size of a teenager - they must be fake
C) a good for nothing pirate who is selfish and only looks out for herself
D) a drunkard and cheat at cards

Would she react differently in any of those secnarios? Of course the dialouge would be different but would the actually tone change? No, she would act the same in every scenario. Someone that doesn't know anything about Isabella and just comes at her from a place of anger with all these assumptions is not something she bothers with - it just rolls off her back and she moves on. Bisexually is not part of her character no more than she has black hair or brown eyes. At least not to me. Replace Isabella with any of the other characters and you could still do the same thing.

It just seems to me that what it boils down to, if you want it to be different, it will be different. If it really doesn't bother you, then outside of being curious or someone engaging you in a conversation specifically geared to the topic, you aren't really going to ask questions or challenge devs with the intent to disclude other people from content they genuinely enjoy and appreciate.
It doesn't take away from them as a person and I don't think it detracts from the characters when they are written like that, after taking a step back and thinking of things objectively. Aside from that, because I do have a lot of friends in the LGBT community I want them to be able to fully enjoy content and characters the same way I do.

If our merits are judged solely on bedroom antics then we are all going to hell anyway.

What I DO think is weird is the trend that a lof of romanceable characters feel the need to disclose all or part of their romantic past and/or sexual history to the main character. It' probably just me and my own preferrence though. Some people actually like that when they start relationships but I prefer to leave what's in the past out of sight and out of mind.

[Heavensrun]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Dude, REAL PEOPLE aren't settled on one point of view regarding sexuality.

You may go ahead and give me an example of who is not.
I can't think of any sexual orientation other than being attracted to men, women, both, or some unmentionable stuff. 

I was straight for twenty five years.

You changed your view at some point, but you were always convinced of one sexuality, no?
If say the protagonist is the one person who made said ficitonal character curious about the other sex and that is believably presented, I have absolutely no problem.  I would find that interesting.
What I have a problem with is that too many characters are crafted towards maximum tolerance and the player. Almost everyone I meet in Dragon Age 2 is convinced to be bisexual and I simply find that unbelievable and dull.

No, actually, I wasn't "always convinced".  I was straight, then I met some people that made me question where my boundaries were, then I started to look at things in new ways, then I was "straight with exceptions", and eventually I settled into being bi.  And now that I -am- bi, I generally tend to react the same way to attractive members of either sex.  If I somehow split off today into two universes with male and female equivalents of the same person, I'd react to that person pretty much the same way in both universes.

As for whether it's believable for a host of LI's to match my type of bisexuality, eh, maybe, maybe not.  It -is- a different culture, and origins repeatedly implied that it is also a sexually tolerant one.  But even if it isn't plausible in a meta sense, it's also not plausible that the mage tower, Denerim, and numberous other time-sensetive crises in DA:O just sit there and wait for the Grey Warden to happen along after he or she finishes all the subquesting they want to do.  Your choices in these games don't just influence what your character does.  The narrative for a Bioware game wraps itself around the preference of the player at every turn.  If a character is gay or straight as it benefits the player's wishes, how is that any different from whether or not the Noveria or Zhu's Hope crisis happens earlier or later in the game's chronology according to where the player feels like going first?

The purpose of a Bioware game isn't to present us with a world that reacts to us realistically.  The purpose of a Bioware game is to present us with a story that can be shaped according to the player's preference.

[PlasmaCheese]

Woooooooow.

[Rixatrix]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
A lot of people say "sexuality is part of a person's character" and for a while I used to subscribe to this. After thinking about it more though I'm going to have to go back on what I say. It's like saying race is part of a person's character. It's really isn't. A person's race or sexuality doesn't make someone act a certain way, or to be more specific "[insert character] doesn't act that way because of their race/sexuality."

What IS true is that OTHER PEOPLE act or treat them different because of those features, and what you see is a reaction to that experience.

Very well said.

[LarryDavid]

Plaintiff wrote...

LarryDavid wrote...
You can say that for you DA2's way seems the fairest option and thats it.

Yes, I can. And I did.

- Is fair about serving the majority?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

- Is fair about maximizing total happiness?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

- Is fair about a correct representation?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

Basically, you have used your own desires to define 'fairness' for yourself and then you try to use this definition as something objective in this discussion, which is very unwise in my opinion. You can't take the moral high ground if you have noting objective to back you up.

Or you could read my posts and not make crap up.

Before the BSN I never wondered about the representation of minorities in games.

That tells me all I need to know about you.

Till a long while ago when I read a post about someone who complained about the presence of LGBTs in games and said it would be nice if that would change. So, I thought 'why not?' what she asks for does not conflict with my selfish interests and if it really makes her happy I'm all for it. But then you start reading BS things like 'Bioware SHOULD do this', 'straight privilege', 'equal representation', 'fairness', ... and slowly I'm starting to change my mind. If a child keeps crying for a cookie, giving it encourages the child to be noisy everytime it wants something ...

Yeah, homosexuals are soooooooooooo selfish. Why don't they ask for important things, like the rest of BSN? Armor customisation! More specialisations! Bangable Qunari! Orlesian War Poodles! Masquerade Balls! Spears and rapiers!

Those are the issues that really matter!

Jesus Christ

There is a difference between saying (a) "it IS the fairest for EVERYONE" and ( "in my opinion it ... ". You clearly pulled an (a) so it is a little bit absurd to say 'I did' about (. Now, you seem rather tense about this subject and although you accuse me of not reading your posts, I'm afraid you didn't read mine.

First of all, we have EXACTLY the same amount of choices. But based on our preferences we just exclude different LIs a priori. The filter you use result in 1 LI in DAO ad 2 in DA2. Some people want LIs that are solely straight and hence they had 1 option in DAO and 0 in DA2. So why would the implementation of DA2 be the fairest? What is you moral ground to make absolute statements about what is fairest for everyone?

Furthermore, I think it is sad that you draw conclusions about me from that one sentence. Anywayz, I really don't know what you are responding to. I didn't say that homosexuals are selfish and I didn't say that it is not a valid thing to ask. It would be perfectly fine for me if you would ask it nicely (like the post I mentioned). But you don't. Based on your subjective preferences you define 'equal', 'fair', ... then you consider these to be objective definitions and then you use them to make absolute statements and arguments.

If you say; fairness is about maximizing the total happiness (which is a subjective definition) then you still have to back this up with objective information to show that what you propose is indeed the fairest solution.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

Well, I agree that characters should be able to stand on their own merits.  I don't see at all how sexuality affects this, because the argument applies to all characters, Companions and NPCs alike, that interact with the PC, irrespective of whether they are a LI or not, and whether they are a bisexual LI or not.

I can't agree that it rarely has anything to do with the character being bi, because objections to the issue of bisexuality is precisely the complaint often made.  I would agree that the lack of bisexuality outside of the PC can seem odd, but this could be extended: with few exceptions the LIs don't express any sexual interest outside of the PC.  Isabela and Fenris were definitely the exception to the rule, but I think they stand as a strong case that being playersexual or bisexual does not detrimentally affect the quality of writing. 

It has more to do with the ability of the PC to alter the character.  When this happens, it should be the result of a strong relationship over time, rather than being based soley on something such as gender.

Oh?  I'm sure there are complaints out there, but I don't really hear all that many about Zevran, Isabella or Leliana for being bisexual.  Isabella is very, very, very, very, very straightforward about her preferences (as is Zevran, but with a sexier accent).  Leliana eventually makes mention of it, as the game goes along, and she tells you of her past as a bard.  Morrigan appears to lust after Sten and makes more than a few comments about romance, even Alistair does linger his eyes on Morrigan. 

[IC-07]

[Off-topic post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 28 juin 2013 - 10:43 .

[mopotter]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.

An example of it done well is in Viconia; you can change her alignment, to an extent, but she'll never be good. And there are consequences for doing so.

An example of where it is explained is in KotOR 2: The Exile's literally mind controlling the characters. One of them even has a slight breakdown over it.

So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way. Very rarely does it have to do with the character being bi. And the lack of indication of bisexuality outside of the PC.

This is what I prefer.  Characters who have a personality, interest, sexual preference not based on my character.  Good/polite; evil/cruel I don't want to be able to change everyone just because I'm the main character. 

The ones you mentioned are great and sometimes if you had two characters in your group who saw things from different viewpoints, they would argue or fight.   I liked that in KOTOR Carth could not be turned evil no matter what and I liked that Steve in ME3 was not interested in Carra or Abby Shepard but could check out Peter.  And that Samantha was not interested in Peter but was interested in Carra and Abby.    it's nice to be turned down once in awhile.

I liked Zev and loved the fact that after being in my group, he could still try to kill me if he didn't like me enough. Everyone in DA:O was  consistent in all my games, and it was certainly a large reason I played a variety of characters.

DA2 wasn't nearly as entertaining.  No matter what sex Hawke was everyone wanted to romance my character.  Even Fenris who hated mages.  Just pick the right answer and they are mine for the taking.  Except Aveline and she had one of my favorite story lines.

i replay BioWare games a lot.  I don't like having the same exact choices every time I play because the LI don't have a deep personality.  But I know it's easier to make all NPC's follow the leader without thinking and that's too bad.  

[Heavensrun]

LarryDavid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

LarryDavid wrote...

- Is fair about maximizing total happiness?

No, fairness is about giving everyone the same number of choices.

(snip for clarity)

If you say; fairness is about maximizing the total happiness (which is a subjective definition) then you still have to back this up with objective information to show that what you propose is indeed the fairest solution.

 

Reading fail.

[Ieldra]

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

[Maria Caliban]

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

[Aleya]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.
....
So for every character to be interested in the player character just rubs people the wrong way. Very rarely does it have to do with the character being bi. And the lack of indication of bisexuality outside of the PC.

Very much this. I don't mind all LIs being bisexual. I mind all LIs being PCsexual.

I loved Isabela. I was fine with Merrill and Fenris because while they didn't express any clear sexual preference it never seemed like they were whatever Hawke needed them to be.

I very much objected to the treatment of Anders' orientation, since it involved his telling or not telling the full story about himself and Karl. The way I see it, there are a few ways of explaining this, and none of them are good.

*Anders was always with Karl, but chooses not to tell a female Hawke about it - there are really two ways this can be interpreted:
1) He doesn't tell femHawke because he's worried she won't approve - this from the guy who practically runs around screaming "I'm a mage!!!" because he refuses to believe there's anything wrong with the way he was born. Complete 180 in characterization and I refuse to buy it. Meaning he's not telling simply because he doesn't want to talk about it. Which leads to the MUCH WORSE second interpretation...
2) He tells male Hawke because he wants to let Hawke know he's into guys - so he just murdered his former lover, and is now using said tragic story to hit on someone. I really, really hope this wasn't the rationalization his dialogue writers used, because that just... kills Anders for me as a person. This was actually my initial conclusion, leading me to think Anders was a jerkass, before I went on the forums and discovered that Bioware was apparently aiming for "subjective sexuality". Which leads to the final conclusion.

*Anders was never with Karl if Hawke is female, but they were romantically involved if Hawke is male - so a companion's past has been altered to make him suitable to the PC. BIG NO. You don't see Fenris suddenly bringing up his bestest buddy childhood mage friend if Hawke isa mage, do you? So why on earth would Anders suddenly sprout a past boyfriend just because Hawke is male? I don't want tailored companions. Iwant individuals. Individuals that one PC will get along with and another won't, that will despise a goody two-shoes while being practically family to a sarcastic idiot, that will fall in love with oneperson and reject another if their gender isn't compatible.

Basically, if they'd just kept him consistent, with the dialogue regarding Karl the same for both genders of Hawke, there would not have been an issue for me. It's the fact that they messed with who he was in between playthroughs that gets to me. But from past Bioware posts it seems like they've caught on to this being the problem, so hopefully DAI won't see a similar mistake.

Modifié par Aleya, 28 juin 2013 - 07:45 .

[Plaintiff]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

Well fantasy is full of untenable premises; flying castles and deserts of rainbow sand and whatnot. It's certainly your choice to accept them or not on a case by case basis, but no work should be required to justify itself. In order to engage with most (if not all fantasy), you are essentially required to accept that some things in the setting simply are.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Bull****! Explain yourself now!"

VS.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Alright then, on with the plot."

Judging any fantasy world by real-world parameters of what can/cannot happen is rather missing the point.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 juin 2013 - 07:33 .

[mopotter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

Agree.  Removing homophobia would not result in everyone being bi.  People are not that simple and it seems to implies, to me, that being straight or gay is a choice and i don't believe it is.  Great youtube "when did you choose to be straight".

On topic, :)I'd just like my group of companions to be individuals.  With individual interest and not all be interested in romancing my character just because.  I would have liked Fenris to insult or at least turn down any overture from my Mage.  I would have loved Merrill to try killing my templar supporter. Instead basically, they let my character control them.  I don't want everyone worshiping my character.  It really cuts down the reason to replay for me.

[LinksOcarina]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

Someone earlier mentioned playersexuality, and that is a fitting term for this I think, considering the romances are designed to be player-centric, and since the characters don't initiate with the exception of Isabela and Anders, it still is a non-issue if you ask me. Ironic enough considering its the same thing everyone else loves about other RPGs, but hates about Dragon Age II's...

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 28 juin 2013 - 07:36 .

[Rawgrim]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

Someone earlier mentioned playersexuality, and that is a fitting term for this I think, considering the romances are designed to be player-centric, and since the characters don't initiate with the exception of Isabela and Anders, it still is a non-issue if you ask me. Ironic enough considering its the same thing everyone else loves about other RPGs, but hates about Dragon Age II's...

Being able to decide NPC`s sexuality is not something people love in rpgs. To be honest i can`t even think of another rpg that lets the player make that desicion.

[Eveangaline]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

Someone earlier mentioned playersexuality, and that is a fitting term for this I think, considering the romances are designed to be player-centric, and since the characters don't initiate with the exception of Isabela and Anders, it still is a non-issue if you ask me. Ironic enough considering its the same thing everyone else loves about other RPGs, but hates about Dragon Age II's...

Anders sexuality is not player character related as he had a boyfriend and has slept with isabella no matter what you do.

Fenris also sleeps with isabella so long as he's not currently being romanced.

[LinksOcarina]

Eveangaline wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

Someone earlier mentioned playersexuality, and that is a fitting term for this I think, considering the romances are designed to be player-centric, and since the characters don't initiate with the exception of Isabela and Anders, it still is a non-issue if you ask me. Ironic enough considering its the same thing everyone else loves about other RPGs, but hates about Dragon Age II's...

Anders sexuality is not player character related as he had a boyfriend and has slept with isabella no matter what you do.

Fenris also sleeps with isabella so long as he's not currently being romanced.

Fenris and Isabela relationship reveal is also a random dialogue which you have no guarentee to hear. I heard it the first time on my second playthrough so I didn't even know it existed until then. Again that is metagame knowledge.

Same with Anders, as someone said earlier it depends wether you are male/female to find that information out. Also depends on how you question him in the dialogue if I recall. 

The only links between all the games is Isabela and Sebastian, who don't change based on the players gender, that is kind of my point in the end. 

[Maria Caliban]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

I would find this argument far more convincing if people also said that Dawn Star or Bastila Shan weren't properly straight because they showed no interest in sexual matters and seemed to have no previous intimate relations with men.

As is, bisexual characters must be overtly sexual or their sexuality is seen as false while straight characters don't have to jump through these hoops at all.

[Kallimachus]

I'm really unsure what many of you are talking about. I have never experienced a "bisexual romance" in DA2.

You see, the way I see it, every time I play the game again - just like my Hawke is not the same character - doesn't look the same, doesn't have the same name, doesn't have the same gender (OK, OK Hawke's usually male for me), sometimes inherits Malcolm's magical aptitude, sometimes does not, sometimes is more sneaky, sometimes more brawny, and let's not even begin to speak about how dextrous Hawke is sometimes, and how strong-willed (or just strong) in other times, and later in the game how differently Hawke reacts to many situation (OK, OK, you caught me again, my Hawkes are generally pro-mage) - just like Hawke's not the same person, none of the other characters in the game are the same characters.
Now the Isabelas always quite clearly suggest they are bisexual, and some versions of Anders state that he is pansexual. But the others, never make any reference that would make me think they are bisexual in any versions I play the game. Now indeed all versions of Aveline are heterosexual, and all the Varrics seem to prefer girls, but the Sebastians? I think all of his versions are asexual (although admittedly a rare few of those versions may express a romantic asexual interest in a girl, my guess is that that's just happenstance, and that none of his versions simply finds male Hawke romantically appealing).
So I don't get what's all the fuss is about. In different realities, some characters have different sexual orientations. Why is that implausible? The changes in those characters are much more mild than in the Hawkes...

Now, I admit that when the game initially launched I was a bit disappointed that Sebastian was described as straight (and so my male Hawkes would not be able to romance him). I was particularly disappointed because I saw it as a second time when the noble-knight-type character would be reserved for different sex romance only (as if a same sex romance would somehow sully that kind of character's purity). Later, however, I realized he was not exactly straight (as I mentioned above), and besides, the more I got to know him the less I liked him, and the less I wanted any sort of romantic involvement with him (It's like traveling with mormon during his proselytizing mission).

As for the difference between same sex and different sex romances, only once did I encounter a line that really seemed to stand out to me as something that would not be said in a gay romance, and that line appeared in a romance initially intended to be straight, and that I had access to only through a mod: the line in which Alistair says he was raised to be gentleman.

[LinksOcarina]

Rawgrim wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

They are not bisexual in DA2 apart for Isabella; they change depending on what gender you select for your character.

The problem here is that you're limiting expressions of bisexuality to 'incredibly lusty and sexually active.'

A bisexual person can also be a shy, inexperienced type like Merrill. How she expresses her desires does not make her less bi.

Don't be daft. The only ones with a stated sexuality in the games were Isabela and Sebastian. The rest it was dealers choice and as I said earlier, is dependent upon metagaming to even realize that. It has nothing to do with "limiting expressions of bisexuality", and this is a bisexual telling that. 

Someone earlier mentioned playersexuality, and that is a fitting term for this I think, considering the romances are designed to be player-centric, and since the characters don't initiate with the exception of Isabela and Anders, it still is a non-issue if you ask me. Ironic enough considering its the same thing everyone else loves about other RPGs, but hates about Dragon Age II's...

Being able to decide NPC`s sexuality is not something people love in rpgs. To be honest i can`t even think of another rpg that lets the player make that desicion.

What I am refering to is player-centric aspect of the games mechanics. Deciding who you romance is one of those examples, its a player-centric tactic that is used in a lot of RPG's to give more choices and power to the player essentially.  Skyrim, for example is entirely player-centric, you can literally do anything you want and the whole world waits for you until you show up to do it.