1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Kallimachus]

Realmzmaster wrote...
 The problem comes when you use the information from a previous playthrough with a different Hawke.

Or, more likely, from another player's playthrough, or (even more likely) from reading about it on the internet.

[Ieldra]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

Well fantasy is full of untenable premises; flying castles and deserts of rainbow sand and whatnot. It's certainly your choice to accept them or not on a case by case basis, but no work should be required to justify itself. In order to engage with most (if not all fantasy), you are essentially required to accept that some things in the setting simply are.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Bull****! Explain yourself now!"

VS.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Alright then, on with the plot."

Judging any fantasy world by real-world parameters of what can/cannot happen is rather missing the point.

The thing is: the aliens aren't supposed to be human, and fantasy gets some of its appeal through the fact some things are different. The human characters in Thedas are supposed to be human. To make them all bi - just imagine that everyone you know suddenly told you they were bi. Wouldn't you feel transferred into a very alien world? I'm hving the cognitive dissonance: "These are supposed to be human", and "real humans aren't like that".

Yet again, I know I'm supposed to treat every playthrough as an AU, but it doesn't work that way. Just like I can't remove the knowledge of other playthroughs from my mind when I replay, I cannot remove the knowledge that some characters are effectively bi. I can make an effort not to be influenced by it, but that usually doesn't work too well where emotions are involved, unlike plot decisions which often aren't that emotional.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 09:25 .

[Silfren]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

Well fantasy is full of untenable premises; flying castles and deserts of rainbow sand and whatnot. It's certainly your choice to accept them or not on a case by case basis, but no work should be required to justify itself. In order to engage with most (if not all fantasy), you are essentially required to accept that some things in the setting simply are.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Bull****! Explain yourself now!"

VS.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Alright then, on with the plot."

Judging any fantasy world by real-world parameters of what can/cannot happen is rather missing the point.

The thing is: the aliens aren't supposed to be human, and fantasy gets some of its appeal through the fact some things are different. The human characters in Thedas are supposed to be human. To make them all bi - just imagine that everyone you know suddenly told you they were bi. Wouldn't you feel transferred into a very alien world? I'm hving the cognitive dissonance: "These are supposed to be human", and "real humans aren't like that".

Yet again, I know I'm supposed to treat every playthrough as an AU, but it doesn't work that way. Just like I can't remove the knowledge of other playthroughs from my mind when I replay, I cannot remove the knowledge that some characters are effectively bi. I can make an effort not to be influenced by it, but that usually doesn't work too well where emotions are involved, unlike plot decisions which often aren't that emotional.

Have you considered challening the cognitive dissonance with "Okay, this world does not have the kind of hangups about sexuality I see going on in my reality's present culture.  Obviously sexuality is treated differently here."  There is a lot of fantasy out there that does precisely this: features characters who live in a world with a radically different perspective on human sexuality, with the result that how individual characters behave, sexually speaking, is radically different from what most of us are used to.  I maintain that this hinges on far more on how we've been socially indoctrinated than actual biology. 

[Sylvianus]

Realmzmaster wrote... Only gamers who play the game more than once and respond in different ways to the prompts will even know this.

I do not really understand this kind of remark.

The world is immutable in some ways and characters are normally defined, no matter how we'd want to be able to do everything. Characters have a personality with which players have to deal with regardless of their way of roleplaying with their companions normally independent from the PC. So what is the relevance of this observation ? That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

If I had only played DAO once, I would have never known that Morrigan could have noble intentions, only that she's selfish and could be petty. Yep, pretty much. So what ? Does that mean that Morrigan is only selfish and petty because I only  played once DAO and I would  have never known if I didn't try another playthrought? The fact that she could be noble in my friend's playthrought doesn't teach me anything about her ?

Whether I know everything about her or not, David Gaider has given her a personality, a way to behave, she's defined and she is what she is, regardless of what I could know about her and what I want from her. That's a fact.  It's up to the player to try to discover everything about her, and that means several playthroughts.

Everything and anything about the character is an element that describes what defines him overall, even if it has not occured in your playthrought.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 28 juin 2013 - 10:04 .

[mopotter]

Aleya wrote...

Chanda wrote...
I don't really understand why people are still arguing about this feature of the LI's being player-sexual. Player-sexual is how it's going to be. It's already set in stone. Nothing you say is going to change it. It's time to build a bridge, get over it, and move on.

Because I vehemently disagree with the notion of NPCs being different people depending on who the PC is.

That works for games where everything gets tailored to the player, but Bioware is supposed to be the one shining oasis of a company that actually creates companions with strong individual identities. I love that about Bioware. I was unbelievably sad that it changed in DA2, and I suppose somewhere deep down the hope remains that if the dissatisfied faction of the player base can just explain why player-based sexuality is bad, maybe the writers will change it back to normal in DAI.

Good post.  agree.

[Dhiro]

I think that the "dissatisfied faction of the player base" underestimates the writers' powers of comprehension. They understand very well why you don't like it, they simply chose to follow another path anyway.

[mopotter]

[quote]BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

[quote]Aleya wrote...

[quote]Chanda wrote...
I don't really understand why people are still arguing about this feature of the LI's being player-sexual. Player-sexual is how it's going to be. It's already set in stone. Nothing you say is going to change it. It's time to build a bridge, get over it, and move on. [/quote]

Because I vehemently disagree with the notion of NPCs being different people depending on who the PC is.

That works for games where everything gets tailored to the player, but Bioware is supposed to be the one shining oasis of a company that actually creates companions with strong individual identities. I love that about Bioware. I was unbelievably sad that it changed in DA2, and I suppose somewhere deep down the hope remains that if the dissatisfied faction of the player base can just explain why player-based sexuality is bad, maybe the writers will change it back to normal in DAI.
[/quote]

If the NPCs being "different people depending on who the PC is" is your true issue, would all romanceable NPCs being strictly homosexual solve your problem?

[/quote

Would mine.  But I'd far rather have some of each, SS/MF/EitherS, so I can play a variety of games with different options.  If everyone is willing to bang my character, then my character is a sex god/goddess.  I'd far far rather play a character where i can flirt and have them say sorry, not my type.  Then play another game where my character is their type.

I'd even be happy of instead of gender it was based on something else.  Templar LI option  to a mage " A mage?  No way could I fall for someone who might turn into a blood mage.  don't even think it"   Mage LI option to my Templar npc- all you want is to lock mages up, I don't trust you and never will."  Then the next game I'd play a non-templar romancing a mage or a rogue romancing the mage or something totally different.

 Just wish BW would get over the idea everyone has to adore and love my character.

[Jorji Costava]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The thing is: the aliens aren't supposed to be human, and fantasy gets some of its appeal through the fact some things are different. The human characters in Thedas are supposed to be human. To make them all bi - just imagine that everyone you know suddenly told you they were bi. Wouldn't you feel transferred into a very alien world? I'm hving the cognitive dissonance: "These are supposed to be human", and "real humans aren't like that".

Yet again, I know I'm supposed to treat every playthrough as an AU, but it doesn't work that way. Just like I can't remove the knowledge of other playthroughs from my mind when I replay, I cannot remove the knowledge that some characters are effectively bi. I can make an effort not to be influenced by it, but that usually doesn't work too well where emotions are involved, unlike plot decisions which often aren't that emotional.

Well, as a Straight Male Gamer who rarely even pursues the romance subplots, I'm probably the worst person to say anything about this, but ignorance has never stopped me before. If everyone told me they were bisexual, I would feel rather out of place, but I would also feel rather out of place if transported to ancient Athens and confronted with the practice of pederasty. The point is not that pederasty is okay (it isn't, in case anyone was wondering) but that sexual identity is more fluid than many realize, and fluctuates with various political, social and economic influences in ways that are still poorly understood. Heck, the term "homosexuality" as a way of describing sexual attraction to members of one's own gender doesn't even come into currency until the late 19th century.

Given all of this, I have no idea how common or uncommon bisexuality would be in a fictional world like Thedas. The only thing I am confident of is that simply projecting facts about the distribution of heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals in the actual world backwards into the world of Thedas is not a particularly reliable way of finding this out.

On a related note, I don't think that having all the potential LI's be bisexual would imply that all or even most people in Thedas are bisexual. Sure, it would be a bit of a coincidence if you happened to be traveling with three or four bisexual people in a world where bisexuality is relatively rare, but this doesn't seem like something to get particularly hung up over. I don't remember seeing countless threads about how dumb it is that in ME3, Shepard keeps running into everyone from ME2 in some pretty random and unlikely locations.

[Pasquale1234]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but would like to offer a few comments.

Silfren wrote...
 I can't imagine it would be easy to write a character along the lines of, say, Aveline, with a clearly (rigidly) defined sexuality and independent romance arc if that character is also meant to be a potential romance option.

I disagree with the assertion that Aveline's sexuality was clearly and rigidly defined.  We know that she was married to Ser Wesley when the story began, and later wed Donnic - but I don't recall her ever saying anything about whether she had ever or could ever experience romantic attraction to a woman, nor do I recall her ever having stated her sexuality.

==============================================

Apparent sexuality =/= actual sexuality.

We know that there are many bisexual people with o/s partners who may appear to be straight, but aren't.  I also know quite a few people who married and started families with someone of the o/s as young adults, only to reject all of that and come out in mid-life.

It's always interesting to see the reactions when one of these truths is revealed.  To those who feel that one's sexuality is a definitive characteristic, it tends to be quite a shock - and they react as if the newly out person just morphed into someone unrecognizable...  even though they are the same person they have been all along, only equipped with a new or different understanding of their own personal romantic attractions.

People can - and do - switch teams.

All of the labels we're using in this thread are just that - labels created in the context of our current cultural paradigms, based on our still-very-limited understanding of human sexuality.  I've yet to see any orientation labels used by any of the characters of Thedas, or any indication that they have any such understanding of human sexual orientation.  We are labeling them without their consent.

I often see Leliana labeled bisexual, but it may be another case of apparent sexuality.  As a bard-spy-master manipulator, Leliana is a character capable of using sex to get whatever she wants from someone.  If you believe her affection for Marjolaine (and/or a female warden) to be sincere, then you might believe her to be lesbian.  If you believe that a male warden is Leliana's only real true love (she was only using Marjolaine and the others), then you might believe her to be hetero.  In any case, you are drawing your own conclusions based on her behaviors and your own view of what they mean.

Shrug.

[Qyla]

mopotter wrote...

Aleya wrote...

Chanda wrote...
I don't really understand why people are still arguing about this feature of the LI's being player-sexual. Player-sexual is how it's going to be. It's already set in stone. Nothing you say is going to change it. It's time to build a bridge, get over it, and move on.

Because I vehemently disagree with the notion of NPCs being different people depending on who the PC is.

That works for games where everything gets tailored to the player, but Bioware is supposed to be the one shining oasis of a company that actually creates companions with strong individual identities. I love that about Bioware. I was unbelievably sad that it changed in DA2, and I suppose somewhere deep down the hope remains that if the dissatisfied faction of the player base can just explain why player-based sexuality is bad, maybe the writers will change it back to normal in DAI.

Good post.  agree.

Me too.

When you write a chara their sexuality is important, because is part of their being, it's part of what shapes their story, as their gender and growing up enviroment are. I strongly hope this player sexual thing it's just a theory, because our pc has to fit in the world h/she lives in, not the opposite. I don't care if I can't romance my favourite chara as long as I know that writer's choices weren't pushed by people's interest. It's not a date game guys, your chara may be single you know?

[Rixatrix]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
Apparent sexuality =/= actual sexuality.

We know that there are many bisexual people with o/s partners who may appear to be straight, but aren't.  I also know quite a few people who married and started families with someone of the o/s as young adults, only to reject all of that and come out in mid-life.

It's always interesting to see the reactions when one of these truths is revealed.  To those who feel that one's sexuality is a definitive characteristic, it tends to be quite a shock - and they react as if the newly out person just morphed into someone unrecognizable...  even though they are the same person they have been all along, only equipped with a new or different understanding of their own personal romantic attractions.

People can - and do - switch teams.

All of the labels we're using in this thread are just that - labels created in the context of our current cultural paradigms, based on our still-very-limited understanding of human sexuality.  I've yet to see any orientation labels used by any of the characters of Thedas, or any indication that they have any such understanding of human sexual orientation.  We are labeling them without their consent.

I really appreciate this post. 

[Ieldra]

Silfren wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
With that said...and please I do NOT want to get this discussion bogged down in real world sexual politics, so please just don't...the lore we have on Thedas does strongly indicate that real world biases toward the expression of sexuality have no place in this fictional setting.  This should matter.  Once you are informed that the lore of Thedas does not have the component of homophobia, especially not religiously-rooted homophobia, then you, frankly, need to set aside your pre-existing ideas.  I don't see why it should be such a stretch to realize that you are reading a fictional world where the assumptions and prejudices are either completely different or else just quite literally non-existent.

I do not believe that removing homophobia would result in everyone being bi. Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). Anyone can have any sexual orientation, but a world where everyone is bi appears thoroughly alien to me. I'd accept it as an artificial experimental setting created, for instance, through genetic engineering, in order to explore the possiblities of such a setup, and since I don't have a preference for the natural over the artificial I think we could learn to live in such a world, but as the premise of a non-artificial world populated with humans it doesn't work for me. Or in short: "humans aren't like that".

Well fantasy is full of untenable premises; flying castles and deserts of rainbow sand and whatnot. It's certainly your choice to accept them or not on a case by case basis, but no work should be required to justify itself. In order to engage with most (if not all fantasy), you are essentially required to accept that some things in the setting simply are.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Bull****! Explain yourself now!"

VS.

"The world is made of purple jell-o? Alright then, on with the plot."

Judging any fantasy world by real-world parameters of what can/cannot happen is rather missing the point.

The thing is: the aliens aren't supposed to be human, and fantasy gets some of its appeal through the fact some things are different. The human characters in Thedas are supposed to be human. To make them all bi - just imagine that everyone you know suddenly told you they were bi. Wouldn't you feel transferred into a very alien world? I'm hving the cognitive dissonance: "These are supposed to be human", and "real humans aren't like that".

Yet again, I know I'm supposed to treat every playthrough as an AU, but it doesn't work that way. Just like I can't remove the knowledge of other playthroughs from my mind when I replay, I cannot remove the knowledge that some characters are effectively bi. I can make an effort not to be influenced by it, but that usually doesn't work too well where emotions are involved, unlike plot decisions which often aren't that emotional.

Have you considered challening the cognitive dissonance with "Okay, this world does not have the kind of hangups about sexuality I see going on in my reality's present culture.  Obviously sexuality is treated differently here."  There is a lot of fantasy out there that does precisely this: features characters who live in a world with a radically different perspective on human sexuality, with the result that how individual characters behave, sexually speaking, is radically different from what most of us are used to.  I maintain that this hinges on far more on how we've been socially indoctrinated than actual biology. 

I can only repeat: I do not believe that sexual orientation is purely a matter of culture and perspective. *Attitudes* to sexual orientation are, and yes, they do have an influence on actual orientation, but it's a secondary factor at best.
For your perspective to work, I'd have to believe that all humans are naturally bisexual, and I do not believe that. It doesn't help that I have a passionate aversion against the opinion that gender is nothing more but a cultural construct (stress on "nothing more"). This is plainly delusional and completely ignores biology. I've spent years lambasting Bioware on their cavalier attitude to biology in ME, and I apply the same standards here.

If everyone on Thedas tells me "I don't care about anyone's sexual orientation", I can believe that because I think that yes, *atttitudes* to sexual orientation are a matter of culture and perspective (there are influences by biology, but they're minor) and Thedas can be different. When everyone is bi, I can't believe that. Not without also believing that I'm talking about a nonhuman species.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 10:02 .

[Ieldra]

Perhaps I should clarify yet again: I'm not in principle against Bioware experimenting with this "everything is bi" setup. Maybe I'll be able to adapt in time. I'm just saying that at the moment, it doesn't work for me and that the DA2 romances appear less real to me.

But...if I ever come to accept it, it's because I've acquired the mental ability to be truly schizophrenic at will and completely separate different playthroughs as AUs from each other in my mind, not because I accept assertions about human sexual orientation being a cultural construct. *scoffs* Really.... I have a really serious problem with this insistence that biology is something you can ignore at your convenience because it doesn't fit your ideology.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juin 2013 - 10:14 .

[Thomas Andresen]

[quote]GodWood wrote...

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.[/quote]Plaintiff posting in a nut-shell.

"Disagree with me? YOU'RE A BIGOT!"[/quote]
Subconscious bigotry is still bigotry. I cannot, and will not, make any claims to not have any homophobic sentiments, however much I'd want to.

[quote]Mr Massakka wrote...

I am a straight male who is in no way homophobic, ...[/quote]
I don't think anyone can truthfully make that statement. I certainly think there are straight people who might think so, but I don't think anyone's not influenced at all by homophobia.

[quote]GodWood wrote...

This couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Everything affects a person's personality/characterization/development. In the case of sexuality it effects how you interact with the sexes, how others perceive you, who you associate with, who you have dated and how they have effected you, etc, etc.

Now Bioware could simply homogenize these experiences and say character A's relationships in his "gay universe" were identical in his "straight" universe all except for gender and effected him in the exact same way but that would be lazy writing.[/quote]
And it is impossible for someone to be unsure about his sexuality, or not have preferences, or to change their preferences. Yes, that sounds very realistic.

[quote]Morocco Mole wrote...

There's another ad-hominem. [/quote]
No, it was totally called for.

[quote]iakus wrote...

Being able to determine the sexuality of a given character (besides the player character) is too much like mind control for my taste.

"You will be attracted to me.  I deem it so!" 

[/quote]
This perception boggles my mind. What? Why? How?

[quote]Morocco Mole wrote...

Stop getting offended[/quote]
That isn't always a choice everyone is able to make. Feelings are funny like that.

[quote]Pasquale1234 wrote...

I disagree with the assertion that Aveline's sexuality was clearly and rigidly defined.  We know that she was married to Ser Wesley when the story began, and later wed Donnic - but I don't recall her ever saying anything about whether she had ever or could ever experience romantic attraction to a woman, nor do I recall her ever having stated her sexuality.[/quote]
Female Hawke also get the "might there have been ...?" conversation at the end of "The Longest Road", under certain circumstances. Not sure if friendship/rivalry plays a part or if it's only based on how much you've "flirted" with her.


[quote]Pasquale1234 wrote...

Apparent sexuality =/= actual sexuality.

People can - and do - switch teams.[/quote]
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

"You can't like Coke and Pepsi! Pick one and stick to it until you die!"[/quote]
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

So, basically, "romance is terrible, except when I like it".
[/quote]

/thread

[Kallimachus]

Sylvianus wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote... Only gamers who play the game more than once and respond in different ways to the prompts will even know this.

I do not really understand this kind of remark.

The world is immutable in some ways and characters are normally defined, no matter how we'd want to be able to do everything. Characters have a personality with which players have to deal with regardless of their way of roleplaying with their companions normally independent from the PC. So what is the relevance of this observation ? That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

If I had only played DAO once, I would have never known that Morrigan could have noble intentions, only that she's selfish and could be petty. Yep, pretty much. So what ? Does that mean that Morrigan is only selfish and petty because I only  played once DAO and I would  have never known if I didn't try another playthrought? The fact that she could be noble in my friend's playthrought doesn't teach me anything about her ?

Whether I know everything about her or not, David Gaider has given her a personality, a way to behave, she's defined and she is what she is, regardless of what I could know about her and what I want from her. That's a fact.  It's up to the player to try to discover everything about her, and that means several playthroughts.

Everything and anything about the character is an element that describes what defines him overall, even if it has not occured in your playthrought.

Morrigan is a character. Nothing more. She's not a real person. Like any character in any work of fiction, be it novel, story, play, movie, poem, painting, or video game, its existence is limited to what is revealed in that narrative. What is revealed in your friend's narrative is what some versions of her have the potential to be, whether they achieve that potential is completely dependent on what you reveal in your narrative (and, even more importantly, what CAN be revealed in your narrative). Anything outside of it DOES NOT EXIST.

The templar Maurevar Carver, for example, does not exist in a world in which Hawke is not a mage. You're not just "not aware of his existance". he does not exist. Only what is revealed in the narrative exists.

And that, for example, is the reason JK Rowling's revelation that Dumbledore was gay is meaningless. It was not revealed within the narrative (except perhaps in extremely oblique and vague hints) and so it does not exist. Any literature student can tell you that.

Modifié par Kallimachus, 28 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[Iakus]

mopotter wrote...

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Aleya wrote...

Chanda wrote...
I don't really understand why people are still arguing about this feature of the LI's being player-sexual. Player-sexual is how it's going to be. It's already set in stone. Nothing you say is going to change it. It's time to build a bridge, get over it, and move on.

Because I vehemently disagree with the notion of NPCs being different people depending on who the PC is.

That works for games where everything gets tailored to the player, but Bioware is supposed to be the one shining oasis of a company that actually creates companions with strong individual identities. I love that about Bioware. I was unbelievably sad that it changed in DA2, and I suppose somewhere deep down the hope remains that if the dissatisfied faction of the player base can just explain why player-based sexuality is bad, maybe the writers will change it back to normal in DAI.

If the NPCs being "different people depending on who the PC is" is your true issue, would all romanceable NPCs being strictly homosexual solve your problem?

Would mine.  But I'd far rather have some of each, SS/MF/EitherS, so I can play a variety of games with different options.  If everyone is willing to bang my character, then my character is a sex god/goddess.  I'd far far rather play a character where i can flirt and have them say sorry, not my type.  Then play another game where my character is their type.

I'd even be happy of instead of gender it was based on something else.  Templar LI option  to a mage " A mage?  No way could I fall for someone who might turn into a blood mage.  don't even think it"   Mage LI option to my Templar npc- all you want is to lock mages up, I don't trust you and never will."  Then the next game I'd play a non-templar romancing a mage or a rogue romancing the mage or something totally different.

 Just wish BW would get over the idea everyone has to adore and love my character.

Very well said!!

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps I should clarify yet again: I'm not in principle against Bioware experimenting with this "everything is bi" setup. Maybe I'll be able to adapt in time. I'm just saying that at the moment, it doesn't work for me and that the DA2 romances appear less real to me.

But...if I ever come to accept it, it's because I've acquired the mental ability to be truly schizophrenic at will and completely separate different playthroughs as AUs from each other in my mind, not because I accept assertions about human sexual orientation being a cultural construct. *scoffs* Really.... I have a really serious problem with this insistence that biology is something you can ignore at your convenience because it doesn't fit your ideology.

I personally found the DA2 romances better. However that's because i see no difference compartmentalising AU's where characters sexuality differs to compartmentalising where different choices are made or where a character in origins is hardened or not.

[Sutekh]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Since you don't want to get into RL issues, I won't go into detail about it except saying that reproduction lies at the root of sexuality, and that this remains the strongest determining factor even though we've learned to use it for other things (and I most emphatically have no issue with that at all, regardless of the genders involved). 

Sorry for going OT, but this is one of my pet peeves.

If you're implying that bisexuality hinders reproduction, I beg to differ. As a bisexual mother of three (which is, mind, one more than the national average in my country), I can assure you we reproduce just fine.

I'll give you that a world without homophobia doesn't mean everyone is bi, but it sure would change the perceived statistics for both bi- and homosexuality, since you wouldn't have as many people lying about it or repressing it. I'm pretty sure that if I had lived during the 19th century (and if they'd done statistics then), I would have been counted as straight, if only because of social pressure. 

Besides, not everyone is bi in Thedas. Counting Zevran and Leliana, six companions out of an entire population made, so far, of a few people whom we know are in a s/s relationship, lots of people in a straight one and even more undefined people isn't "everyone in Thedas".

---

Sylvianus wrote...

But there are always limits, you cannot shape what defines people and the world in which you are playing if the company cares about its story and its writting. You can affect the characters and the world by your choices, you can influence them, you can change them, but you cannot turn them into your property. They are not. 

I agree with this in principle, but then let's not make it only about sexual orientation.

What about, for instance, players dressing Morrigan in full plate armor through Arcane Warrior? Isn't it redefining her (because, honestly, do you think for one second Morrigan would prance around in full plate armor? It's incredibly OOC). What about all the vitriol directed at Bioware for not being able to dress companions as we saw fit in DA2, and define them and shape them to our desire? Isn't it treating them like property? Where's the line?

This is what I have a problem with. Not the idea that companions should have integrity, but the double standard, and the emphasis on sexual orientation being so defining. The way some companions such as Morrigan (or Oghren, Sten, Fenris, Varric, Anders) dress and fight being, IMHO, as important a part of their personality as their sexual orientation - if not more, because much more apparent - why is only the latter under scrutiny?

[Ninja Stan]

This discussion is getting a mite rocky, as do most discussions where people start getting defensive or become unwilling to accept that different people have different perspectives. If y'all can't discuss this topic with civility and mutual respect, particularly if and when you disagree, then it will be locked.

EDIT: Bans have been handed out.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 28 juin 2013 - 10:38 .

[Kallimachus]

wright1978 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps I should clarify yet again: I'm not in principle against Bioware experimenting with this "everything is bi" setup. Maybe I'll be able to adapt in time. I'm just saying that at the moment, it doesn't work for me and that the DA2 romances appear less real to me.

But...if I ever come to accept it, it's because I've acquired the mental ability to be truly schizophrenic at will and completely separate different playthroughs as AUs from each other in my mind, not because I accept assertions about human sexual orientation being a cultural construct. *scoffs* Really.... I have a really serious problem with this insistence that biology is something you can ignore at your convenience because it doesn't fit your ideology.

I personally found the DA2 romances better. However that's because i see no difference compartmentalising AU's where characters sexuality differs to compartmentalising where different choices are made or where a character in origins is hardened or not.

Finally!

[Jorji Costava]

I'm pretty sure you were also able to put Morrigan in a Chantry robe, the most OOC of all.

[Ziggeh]

Aleya wrote...

Because I vehemently disagree with the notion of NPCs being different people depending on who the PC is.

That works for games where everything gets tailored to the player, but Bioware is supposed to be the one shining oasis of a company that actually creates companions with strong individual identities.

Ah come on.

They can perfectly well write characters that work that way, that are both strong and flexible, you're just trying to set up the notion that disagreeing with you is a criticism of Bioware.

[Kallimachus]

Than in that reality Morrigan wore a chantry robe. So what? Nothing prevents me from wearing a Catholic Priest's outfit... Just look at the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...
But...if I ever come to accept it, it's because I've acquired the mental ability to be truly schizophrenic at will and completely separate different playthroughs as AUs from each other in my mind

You're implying that you've either not played the game more than once, or that if you did you repeated all of the choices and actions exactly.

There are already numerous things you except as seperate.

[Jorji Costava]

@Kallimachus:

Presumably, there is something that prevents other people from putting a Catholic priest's outfit on you, whereas what Morrigan wears is entirely up to the player. I was simply trying to add to Sutekh's point that yes, there is a double standard being applied here. If what everyone is really up in arms about is the idea that NPC's should not be mere slaves to the player's choices, we ought to have been equally upset about the fact that in DAO we could make our followers walk around in totally out of character clothing, in their underwear, etc.