1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Well I was mostly referring to DA.  
However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female. That's part of the reason why ManShep has a ready and willing harem to pick from.

Ah.

Yeah I agree. The characters somehow aren't all generic when they're all straight but bisexuality means OMG they're all generic now!

It's laughable.

And yeah the sheer amount of females throwing their panties in Shep's direction was a bit ugh inducing but hey just a game and it's avoidable. It's not forced on me. (Even if I cringe at Jack/Tali's propositions).

[Zeldrik1389]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

They don't really do that though. 

They kind of do. It's not restricted to bi/gay LIs though.

ME2 was particularly bad about this on the male Shep end. Think Miranda was the only female LI who didn't come out with a "let's start a relationship/screw!" line

Think FemShep's options were less annoyingly blatant.

Well I was mostly referring to DA.  
However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female. That's part of the reason why ManShep has a ready and willing harem to pick from.

it happened in DA too. I accidently romance Leliana before, and Anders and Isabela in DA 2 pretty much always suggested something in their dialogue, which I found annoying :/ I dislike characters who do that, whether they are male or female tbh.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 28 juin 2013 - 03:15 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Tarek wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

A common complaint I constantly read is that it is "lazy writing."
The character's sexuality does not affect their personality/characterization/development at all. They would be the same regardless of their sexuality.

indeed oh sexy avatar man indeed

Lol.
What can I say. I have a good eye for creating handsome characters. 

[Rixatrix]

I feel like the companion sexuality and pushover issues are separate.  Because we didn't get the benefit of seeing PC-sexuality and the Friendship/Rivalry system independently of each other in DA2, they get lumped together when discussing how companions seem "plot-cuffed" to the PC regardless of his/her views and actions.

Personally, on a divisive issue like pro- and anti-slavery, if both parties are aggressively and radically supportive of diametrical views, it would take a very important common goal to get them to stick together (and some serious deterrents to avoid getting a knife in the back once that common goal is accomplished).  I believe there should be some things that will make a companion go, "Oh no you didn't" and leave the party or attack you (like Sebastian when you let Anders live or Leliana/Wynne when you defile the Urn).

Regarding a romance, I feel like it's not so much the PC-sexuality that keeps a companion tied to a diametrically-opinionated PC so much as the nature of love.  Regardless of each of our own inclinations, partners have stayed by their lovers' sides through some serious ****.  Sometimes enough's enough, and they leave (like some PCs leaving Anders after the Chantry explosion), but that tolerance meter should vary from one character to another.  Heck, take a look at Alistair, who dumps many female PCs because they're not the holy queen trifecta (human-Cousland-persuasive).

I think what we're really asking here is: Should levels of ambition and loyalty vary among companions, and should that have real consequences in the game?  (Not just Friend/Rival?)

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 28 juin 2013 - 03:20 .

[daaaav]

I think that most of the angst stems from something else rather than the player sexuality of characters. In DA2, the romantic elements of inter character relationships were segregated from both the story and the rest of the characters interaction to the player character. You could trample all over a characters ideology, be a man, be a women, make certain story choices, make other story choices, pursue friendship or pursue rivalry and the romance content would be exactly the same.

It cultivated a feeling that the characters did not have any agency in the romantic relationship at all and existed merely as playthings of the player character.

[sandalisthemaker]

Ryzaki wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Well I was mostly referring to DA.  
However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female. That's part of the reason why ManShep has a ready and willing harem to pick from.

Ah.

Yeah I agree. The characters somehow aren't all generic when they're all straight but bisexuality means OMG they're all generic now!

It's laughable.

And yeah the sheer amount of females throwing their panties in Shep's direction was a bit ugh inducing but hey just a game and it's avoidable. It's not forced on me. (Even if I cringe at Jack/Tali's propositions).

I have to admit, my ManShep was all  when Jack said that out of no where. I didn't think any less of her for it though. I do like her as a character.

[ScarMK]

daaaav wrote...

 You could trample all over a characters ideology, be a man, be a women, make certain story choices, make other story choices, pursue friendship or pursue rivalry and the romance content would be exactly the same.

 

Pretty much this for me.  I think all the romances in DA2 were bad , but they weren't bad just because of player sexuality.

[sandalisthemaker]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...


it happened in DA too. I accidently romance Leliana before, and Anders and Isabela in DA 2 pretty much always suggested something in their dialogue, which I found annoying :/ I dislike characters who do that, whether they are male or female tbh.

The characters that are *openly* bisexual (Isabela, Leliana, and Zevran) were rather promiscuous. This irks me only because they conform to the stereotype that all bisexuals are promiscuous. In regards to their romances, I never had a problem with ninjamancing. That was only a problem in the original ME with Liara and Ashley. It got to the point where I couldn't talk to Ashley past a certain point without her thinking we were in a relationship.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah the sheer amount of females throwing their panties in Shep's direction was a bit ugh inducing but hey just a game and it's avoidable. It's not forced on me. (Even if I cringe at Jack/Tali's propositions).

It's not all that far fetched though.
After all, Shepard was the big bad hero that saved the universe on a regular basis.
If a Justin Bieber can get panties thrown at him for some autotuning why should Shepard be any different? 

[ScarMK]

Azaron Nightblade wrote..


If a Justin Bieber can get panties thrown at him for some autotuning why should Shepard be any different? 

A!?  There's more than one!?

Modifié par ScarMK, 28 juin 2013 - 03:36 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

ScarMK wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote..


If a Justin Bieber can get panties thrown at him for some autotuning why should Shepard be any different? 

A!?  There's more than one!?

I'm sure he'll spawn clones sooner or later!

[The Hierophant]

scary

[Ryzaki]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And yeah the sheer amount of females throwing their panties in Shep's direction was a bit ugh inducing but hey just a game and it's avoidable. It's not forced on me. (Even if I cringe at Jack/Tali's propositions).

It's not all that far fetched though.
After all, Shepard was the big bad hero that saved the universe on a regular basis.
If a Justin Bieber can get panties thrown at him for some autotuning why should Shepard be any different? 

Not that far fetched that 4 people that the protag hangs out with would be bisexual either...

And can also be a grade A douche. But as long as he sweet talks Tali will blatantly ignore his acts of racism and being a complete douchecanoe. You can hand over Veetor to Cerberus and you can still romance her. Wat. WHAT.

Ugh why'd you go and mention Bieber. I'm sick now.

@Sandal: Yeah I used the nuke to end Ashley's ninjamancing. Liara was bugged. (The renegade no trapped you in the romance.). Ashley's romance could somehow get started by you discussing her grandfather.

The mind boggles.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[PsychoBlonde]

daaaav wrote...

I think that most of the angst stems from something else rather than the player sexuality of characters. In DA2, the romantic elements of inter character relationships were segregated from both the story and the rest of the characters interaction to the player character. You could trample all over a characters ideology, be a man, be a women, make certain story choices, make other story choices, pursue friendship or pursue rivalry and the romance content would be exactly the same.

It cultivated a feeling that the characters did not have any agency in the romantic relationship at all and existed merely as playthings of the player character.

I think some of the dialog was different, but yeah, it didn't have any affect on their character development, to be sure.  The only thing that actually got you different character development was to be totally indifferent and neutral and thus never incur enough friendship or rivalry to kick off any of the optional stuff.  Since there wasn't any real difference between high friendship/high rivalry, I think Origins system was actually SUPERIOR to the one in DA2 because there were THREE options in Origins (high approval, low approval, indifferent approval) but only TWO in DA2 (high/indifferent).  Kinda weird how adding an extra dimension actually shallowed the interaction in this way.

[Ryzaki]

...DAO was not superior to DA2 in approval. At all.

All hostility got you was different barks (which rivalry already gives you) and slightly different comments (again rivalry gives you that), along with 1 or 2 "I despise you" conversations (meanwhile with rivalry you still get access to all the character's conversations. You're not just snipped from them and they have different variations *most* of the time). You're pretty much forced to bribe/manipulate them to get everyone's approval decent and since you only get bonuses for positive approval there's absolutely zero reason to have them hostile unless you're trying to kill them.

So yeah not seeing how hostile was superior to rival. Rivalry gave you benefits. Hostile gave you crap.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 03:56 .

[Allan Schumacher]

However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female.

There are some that feel the romances themselves are a bit too overt, in general, too though. Make sure to not draw too many assumptions as well, as I find its the assumptions that start to derail stuff like this.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Sandal: Yeah I used the nuke to end Ashley's ninjamancing. Liara was bugged. (The renegade no trapped you in the romance.). Ashley's romance could somehow get started by you discussing her grandfather.

The mind boggles.

I don't play male characters (just my style) so I've never run across all of this, but it's kind of bizarre that the female characters tend to be more assertive while the male characters very often try to put you off.  Not all of them, but it seems to be more frequent for the female characters to aggressively pursue a male lead while the male characters let the female lead pursue them.  The only ones I recall having to beat off with a stick on my female characters were Alistair and Zevran--and you could just kill Zevran if you wanted to.  But Anomen, Valen, Carth, Kaidan, Sky, and Fenris are all quite easy to deter and don't get rancorous if you reject them.  Fenris actually starts off trying to talk you out of it and then panics and runs away.

Weird, since my own experience has taught me that while women may enjoy pursuit men very often do NOT.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ryzaki wrote...
You're pretty much forced to bribe/manipulate them to get everyone's approval decent and since you only get bonuses for positive approval there's absolutely zero reason to have them hostile unless you're trying to kill them. 

Killing them vs. doing their personal quests etc. is RADICALLY different character development that leads to RADICALLY different results.  Doing exactly the same personal quest with exactly the same outcome only some snippy dialog is THE SAME.

If you leave out dialog differences and just go by the actual impactful character development, Origins had way more possible outcomes than DA2.  And some people aren't just looking to maximize their bonuses, they want to have different outcomes available.

[Ryzaki]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I don't play male characters (just my style) so I've never run across all of this, but it's kind of bizarre that the female characters tend to be more assertive while the male characters very often try to put you off.  Not all of them, but it seems to be more frequent for the female characters to aggressively pursue a male lead while the male characters let the female lead pursue them.  The only ones I recall having to beat off with a stick on my female characters were Alistair and Zevran--and you could just kill Zevran if you wanted to.  But Anomen, Valen, Carth, Kaidan, Sky, and Fenris are all quite easy to deter and don't get rancorous if you reject them.  Fenris actually starts off trying to talk you out of it and then panics and runs away.

Weird, since my own experience has taught me that while women may enjoy pursuit men very often do NOT.

I played both but I'd guess because a pushy male LI completely turns me off (as for Sky. I refuse to romance him with a female because Carth Syndrome but from what I remember from my female PC he was pretty blatant about being attracted to her. Got enough of that in KOTOR thank you very much). And Zev was easy to shutdown and he thankfully knocked it off completely (Just pick the "I don't want you looking at me that way." choice...I think that's what it's called it's in the "do you look at everyone that way?" dialogue tree).

Anomen jerk has other...issues. (Mostly of the snide annoying jerkwad variety but I've ranted enough about BG LIs today...)

Though I didn't play a femShep. I heard that Kaidan wasn't subtle?

And to be fair most of the female characters back off quickly too. (Even if they try to guilt trip you with the "oh." LOOKING AT YOU TALI)

[sandalisthemaker]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

However, many of the people that tend to complain about characters hitting on them don't seem to mind so long as said characters are female.

There are some that feel the romances themselves are a bit too overt, in general, too though. Make sure to not draw too many assumptions as well, as I find its the assumptions that start to derail stuff like this.

All right.

[Swoopdogg]

 I don't feel like being pc-sexual takes away from characterization. As long as it isn't overdone it's fine in my book. Although Anders was just really sudden with his "I'm attracted to you". And you can't really respond without hurting his feelings or telling him you feel the same way. At least with Fenris you had the option to say something neutral

[Ryzaki]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You're pretty much forced to bribe/manipulate them to get everyone's approval decent and since you only get bonuses for positive approval there's absolutely zero reason to have them hostile unless you're trying to kill them. 

Killing them vs. doing their personal quests etc. is RADICALLY different character development that leads to RADICALLY different results.  Doing exactly the same personal quest with exactly the same outcome only some snippy dialog is THE SAME.

If you leave out dialog differences and just go by the actual impactful character development, Origins had way more possible outcomes than DA2.  And some people aren't just looking to maximize their bonuses, they want to have different outcomes available.

And you can do the same thing in DA2 by simply not getting the friendship/rivalry high enough or ignoring them when they ask you for help and moving the act along causing them to solve their issues on their own meanwhile the DAO cast simply leaves it unresolved. So...? Not seeing how hostility is an improvement?

And yes while Morrigan leaves if you refuse to do her Flemeth quest so does Fenris with Hadriana.

Origins had more everything than DA2 but especially choice. Of course it had more possible outcomes you could choose to crown Alistair, marry him to Anora, marry him to a HNF PC, execute him, exile him or just let him stay as a Grey Warden. Especially if you include epilogue cards. As well as being able to kill your companions midway through the game and the DR and whatnot.

So yeah while Leliana could have several states at endgame (Mistress, Mourning, Adventurer, Going back to Orlais) that's simply an outcome of the wealth of choice in DAO not the approval system being better. (not to mention if DA2 is any indication it might be a case of all paths lead to X anyway).

And yeah you have different outcomes available in DA2. Sadly it's more of the romance, befriend (and high rivalry counts as a vitrolic best friends relationship), kill, or they leave (in the case of Fenris and Isabela). There are variations. But it's not as many true but that's more the lack of choice in general in DA2 than the fault of the approval system. (considering friendship/rivalry *is* an approval system.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 04:14 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Ryzaki wrote...
And you can do the same thing in DA2 by simply not getting the friendship/rivalry high enough or ignoring them when they ask you for help and moving the act along causing them to solve their issues on their own meanwhile the DAO cast simply leaves it unresolved. So...? Not seeing how hostility is an improvement?

Congratulations, you have no reiterated exactly what I said in my post.  Go back and READ the part where I explained about how there are TWO options on the friend/rivalry scale (indifferent vs. high either side) and THREE on the Origins one-direction scale: hostility, indifference, approval.  Due to the way the personal quests and so forth worked in Origins, you could actually get several radically different outcomes in character development based on where you were on the scale.  The same variety was not present in DA2, you got a single either/or switch: the high anything, and the indifferent.

[Ryzaki]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
Congratulations, you have no reiterated exactly what I said in my post.  Go back and READ the part where I explained about how there are TWO options on the friend/rivalry scale (indifferent vs. high either side) and THREE on the Origins one-direction scale: hostility, indifference, approval.  Due to the way the personal quests and so forth worked in Origins, you could actually get several radically different outcomes in character development based on where you were on the scale.  The same variety was not present in DA2, you got a single either/or switch: the high anything, and the indifferent.

You didn't get the personal quests if they were hostile or indfferent. It works just the same as DA2 except instead of rivalry > X or friendship > X it's simply approval > X. So what 3 variations in the personal quest where there?  Also why are you ignoring the fact that the 2 high sides were mostly different? There are dialogue differences and indeed some scene differences based on high friendship or rivalry when you get the quest. Unless you're talking about the usual "decide to be a jerk during said personal quest" which...you can do in DA2.

Also...personal quests radically different? When? I just finished playing DAO there's not that much variation in the personal quests.

Leliana - Kill Marjoline or save her, harden her or leave her alone.

Alistair - Harden or leave alone

Morrigan - Do it, trick her or tell her no which casues her to leave.

Sten - Do it or don't

Wynne- Think you're kind of forced into it if you go through the dialogue chain and have her in the party while traveling.

Oghren - Do it successfully, fail, don't do it at all.

Zevran - His true has variations depending on approval, he'll side with you, leave, side against you.

Unless I missed something?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juin 2013 - 04:22 .