1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

In the end, it's a matter of resources, nothing more. The resources in question are used to give the most opportunity to the most people. This is the correct way to do things. If you want to have this fleshed out more by making them more distinctly bisexual/pansexual/demisexual, that's legitimate, but asking for fewer options for certain players is not.

[Kallimachus]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the end, it's a matter of resources, nothing more. The resources in question are used to give the most opportunity to the most people. This is the correct way to do things. If you want to have this fleshed out more by making them more distinctly bisexual/pansexual/demisexual, that's legitimate, but asking for fewer options for certain players is not.

Well put.

[Thomas Andresen]

Kallimachus wrote...

If Ashley didn't say it in your playthrough then her love of poetry did not exist within it. Her likes and dislikes in that regard were unknown. In the same way that her love or dislike of dogs or cats or flower arranging are unknown. They simply do not exist.

I am not entirely comfortable equating "unknown" with "non-existent". I'd rather say that something being unknown to the player character makes it irrelevant to the player character.

[daaaav]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the end, it's a matter of resources, nothing more. The resources in question are used to give the most opportunity to the most people. This is the correct way to do things. If you want to have this fleshed out more by making them more distinctly bisexual/pansexual/demisexual, that's legitimate, but asking for fewer options for certain players is not.

Does not mean that we shouldn't encourage Bioware to improve the implementation.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The prisoner may or may not be alive in one person's game compared to another, so we're already seeing some divergence. Although we're talking about personalities here.

Actually, the prisoner is always alive (at least before the battle) though the Warden does have the option to kill him for the key. But this goes towards "If we are not told something in the game, does it exist?"

It the personality of Viconia immutable and identical depending on how you play through Baldur's Gate and Throne of Bhaal? The personality of Bastila or Carth Onasi depending on your light side/dark side changes?

How about people like Handmaiden, Visas, Atton, Bao-Dur (i.e. the entire cast of KOTOR 2 barring perhaps Kreia - there's a heck of a difference between Atton the spiteful Dark Jedi and Atton the man who wishes to atone for his previous crimes)?

How about Alistair the drunk vagrant versus Alistair the hardened King versus Alistair the puppet King that wants nothing to do with being King? Can one unilaterally say that Alistair has the personality of a great leader, when 2 out of those 3 are decidedly not so awesome (assuming he's not dead, of course).

All of these are examples of external forces and experiences shaping the personalities of the characters.  Viconia's personlity doesn't change unless you treat her a certain way, basically showing her there is another path than the cruel life she has lived. 

Alistair's changes come as a result of meeting Goldanna, your advice afterwards, and events in the Landsmeet.  

Atton had been struggling against his darkness and guilt fro some time before meeting the Exile.

In these cases, we are dealing with traits already in the characters, which the player can shape by exposing them to particular words and deeds.  Perhaps making them question what they once believed, or reinforcing them.  But in all cases, these are based on who and what the charater is.

What is being talked with about playersexual characters or subjective sexuality, or whatever the official term is, they're saying that these characters do or do not hold these traits based entirely on who the player is. Not on what the NPC is.  The player is not shaping the NPC, the player is defining the NPC

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the end, it's a matter of resources, nothing more. The resources in question are used to give the most opportunity to the most people. This is the correct way to do things. If you want to have this fleshed out more by making them more distinctly bisexual/pansexual/demisexual, that's legitimate, but asking for fewer options for certain players is not.

Never asked for that.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Xilizhra]

daaaav wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In the end, it's a matter of resources, nothing more. The resources in question are used to give the most opportunity to the most people. This is the correct way to do things. If you want to have this fleshed out more by making them more distinctly bisexual/pansexual/demisexual, that's legitimate, but asking for fewer options for certain players is not.

Does not mean that we shouldn't encourage Bioware to improve the implementation.

Then do so. The problem is not romance inclusiveness in that case, but romance shallowness. Of course, you're asking for more resources to be added to the romances for this to be pulled off; I do hope you don't mind being in opposition to the yammering nitwits who got banned en masse last night.

Never asked for that.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

So you're for romance equality, you just want more detail put into it?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 juin 2013 - 12:12 .

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The prisoner may or may not be alive in one person's game compared to another, so we're already seeing some divergence. Although we're talking about personalities here.

It the personality of Viconia immutable and identical depending on how you play through Baldur's Gate and Throne of Bhaal? The personality of Bastila or Carth Onasi depending on your light side/dark side changes?

How about people like Handmaiden, Visas, Atton, Bao-Dur (i.e. the entire cast of KOTOR 2 barring perhaps Kreia - there's a heck of a difference between Atton the spiteful Dark Jedi and Atton the man who wishes to atone for his previous crimes)?

How about Alistair the drunk vagrant versus Alistair the hardened King versus Alistair the puppet King that wants nothing to do with being King? Can one unilaterally say that Alistair has the personality of a great leader, when 2 out of those 3 are decidedly not so awesome (assuming he's not dead, of course).

In all those cases, you can safely say that the characters possess the capacity to be all those possibilities, even if they do not always take those paths.

I don't think you could say that some Alistairs could never be a great leader, or that the cast of KotOR 2 do not have the capacity for both dark or light within them.

[Thomas Andresen]

iakus wrote...

What is being talked with about playersexual characters or subjective sexuality, or whatever the official term is, they're saying that these characters do or do not hold these traits based entirely on who the player is. Not on what the NPC is.  The player is not shaping the NPC, the player is defining the NPC

Because a single person have never influenced another person's sexuality in real life. Is that what you're saying?

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
So you're for romance equality, you just want more detail put into it?

Sure.  More detail is always good. It makes the playthrus feel unique.

I'm for there not being a 100% overlap on romance choices.  That doesn't mean I want anyone to have fewer choices.  Just more meaningful ones.

[Iakus]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

iakus wrote...

What is being talked with about playersexual characters or subjective sexuality, or whatever the official term is, they're saying that these characters do or do not hold these traits based entirely on who the player is. Not on what the NPC is.  The player is not shaping the NPC, the player is defining the NPC

Because a single person have never influenced another person's sexuality in real life. Is that what you're saying?

Influenced, perhaps.

Defined?  I certainly hope not.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So you're for romance equality, you just want more detail put into it?

Sure.  More detail is always good. It makes the playthrus feel unique.

I'm for there not being a 100% overlap on romance choices.  That doesn't mean I want anyone to have fewer choices.  Just more meaningful ones.

Fewer options is what you'd produce unless you made six LIs, two of each variety of orientation. When working with only four, this is what we must have.

[Thomas Andresen]

iakus wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Because a single person have never influenced another person's sexuality in real life. Is that what you're saying?

Influenced, perhaps.

Defined?  I certainly hope not.

And how does the romances in DAII qualify as the latter rather than the former?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fewer options is what you'd produce unless you made six LIs, two of each variety of orientation. When working with only four, this is what we must have.

I do feel that something should be said for a political stand, however. I would personally sacrifice and one romance option for a properly gay character to be portrayed in-game. 

[daaaav]

Xilizhra wrote...


Then do so. The problem is not romance inclusiveness in that case, but romance shallowness. Of course, you're asking for more resources to be added to the romances for this to be pulled off; I do hope you don't mind being in opposition to the yammering nitwits who got banned en masse last night.

This is my position:


I think that it is an imperfect solution to a difficult problem. I agree that choices shouldn't be actively taken away from certain folk but I flat out disagree with Plaintiff that characters exist only to serve the interests and desires of the player. Characters exist in service to the story period and stories suffer when this rule is broken. Game worlds should not conform to player desires but react to their choices, not by appeasing them, but by challenging them.

Modifié par daaaav, 29 juin 2013 - 12:46 .

[slimgrin]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Fewer options is what you'd produce unless you made six LIs, two of each variety of orientation. When working with only four, this is what we must have.

I would personally sacrifice and one romance option for a properly gay character to be portrayed in-game. 

won't happen.

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Fewer options is what you'd produce unless you made six LIs, two of each variety of orientation. When working with only four, this is what we must have.

I do feel that something should be said for a political stand, however. I would personally sacrifice and one romance option for a properly gay character to be portrayed in-game. 

Your sacrifice is commendable, but I obviously don't have permission to ask for such a thing myself by my own rules. Of course, if a large portion of the straight playerbase wants one LI to be wholly gay for whatever reason, so be it.

This would certainly ameliorate
the situation somewhat. I would personally prefer that characters have
natures independant of the whims of the player, but having an early in
game cue that triggers certain plot and characterisation differences in
NPC's would be infinitely better than the abrubt techniques used in DA2.
This would also allow for characters sexuality to be explored (if
required) a lot sooner as they are defined earlier. (Plaintiff: I am not
saying that every character must have a nausiatingly detailed sexual
history available for the player to examine minutes after they meet
them... But it would enrichen the tapestry that  the character is drawn
from).

What are actual examples of this "cue?"

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 juin 2013 - 12:27 .

[slimgrin]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your sacrifice is commendable, but I obviously don't have permission to ask for such a thing myself by my own rules. Of course, if a large portion of the straight playerbase wants one LI to be wholly gay for whatever reason, so be it.

A privileged stance you must occupy, knowing what the straight player base wants.

[Xilizhra]

slimgrin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your sacrifice is commendable, but I obviously don't have permission to ask for such a thing myself by my own rules. Of course, if a large portion of the straight playerbase wants one LI to be wholly gay for whatever reason, so be it.

A privileged stance you must occupy, knowing what the straight player base wants.

I'm going to guess that many want the chance to romance people that they like, which I'm quite happy to accommodate provided it's not exclusionary.

[Allan Schumacher]

Viconia's personlity doesn't change unless you treat her a certain way

Alistair's changes come as a result of meeting Goldanna, your advice afterwards, and events in the Landsmeet.

We certainly do pander, don't we?

What is being talked with about playersexual characters or subjective sexuality, or whatever the official term is, they're saying that these characters do or do not hold these traits based entirely on who the player is. Not on what the NPC is. The player is not shaping the NPC, the player is defining the NPC

Six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as I'm concerned. My difference is that I don't see whom the NPC is attracted to as a defining aspect of their personality. In my opinion, the NPCs are all still the same character with the same motivations and the same goals and aspirations in life. On the other hand, I also consider the entire metaknowledge application to be a mostly invalid criticism, so at this point I suspect it's irreconcilable differences. I'm not interested in discussing the point further, since I fundamentally disagree with your perspective.

If this is the line in the sand that you wish to draw, then that's your prerogative, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's not one I, personally, agree with, and I also am not interested in chasing down the metagame rabbit hole when considering development because it's ultimately something that can go on forever.

This thread, however, has actually made me reevaluate my perspectives on how I feel about romance as well as other, related topics, as well as a boatload of cognitive dissonance. People can take that how they will.

I'll conclude by stating that I am, in fact, open to the idea that my interpretations and assumptions of reality may in fact be inaccurate (as uncomfortable and unpleasant as cognitive dissonance is, I try to reflect on it instead of avoiding it).

[slimgrin]

Xilizhra wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your sacrifice is commendable, but I obviously don't have permission to ask for such a thing myself by my own rules. Of course, if a large portion of the straight playerbase wants one LI to be wholly gay for whatever reason, so be it.

A privileged stance you must occupy, knowing what the straight player base wants.

I'm going to guess that many want the chance to romance people that they like, which I'm quite happy to accommodate provided it's not exclusionary.

You aren't a developer, you won't get the chance to accommodate anything.

[Sylvianus]

iakus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
It the personality of Viconia immutable and identical depending on how you play through Baldur's Gate and Throne of Bhaal? The personality of Bastila or Carth Onasi depending on your light side/dark side changes?

How about people like Handmaiden, Visas, Atton, Bao-Dur (i.e. the entire cast of KOTOR 2 barring perhaps Kreia - there's a heck of a difference between Atton the spiteful Dark Jedi and Atton the man who wishes to atone for his previous crimes)?

How about Alistair the drunk vagrant versus Alistair the hardened King versus Alistair the puppet King that wants nothing to do with being King? Can one unilaterally say that Alistair has the personality of a great leader, when 2 out of those 3 are decidedly not so awesome (assuming he's not dead, of course).

All of these are examples of external forces and experiences shaping the personalities of the characters.  Viconia's personlity doesn't change unless you treat her a certain way, basically showing her there is another path than the cruel life she has lived. 

Alistair's changes come as a result of meeting Goldanna, your advice afterwards, and events in the Landsmeet.  

Atton had been struggling against his darkness and guilt fro some time before meeting the Exile.

In these cases, we are dealing with traits already in the characters, which the player can shape by exposing them to particular words and deeds.  Perhaps making them question what they once believed, or reinforcing them.  But in all cases, these are based on who and what the charater is.

Wulfram wrote...

In all those cases, you can safely say that the characters possess the capacity to be all those possibilities, even if they do not always take those paths.

I don't
think you could say that some Alistairs could never be a great leader,
or that the cast of KotOR 2 do not have the capacity for both dark or
light within them.

Well said. The example of Allistair is a good one to be honest. The drunk Allistair and The hardened Allistair, resolute and determined. These two different things are really showing some aspects of his personality, despite different results coming from external influences or difficult decisions. The thing is indeed that these results are based on who and what the character is. And that's the same for any element we discover about the character. 

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 juin 2013 - 12:40 .

[daaaav]

(Misquote)

I don't really know to be honest. They sort of tried what I was talking about with Anders but it didn't feel right at all. Abolishing his relationship with Karl just because the PC is female? Yeah yeah I know alternate reality and all but as Ieldra2 said, I can't make myself schizophrenic. 

Modifié par daaaav, 29 juin 2013 - 12:41 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Your sacrifice is commendable, but I obviously don't have permission to ask for such a thing myself by my own rules. Of course, if a large portion of the straight playerbase wants one LI to be wholly gay for whatever reason, so be it.

Well, to be fair, it if's an M/M romance it's not a sacrifice per se (depending on whether the M was my type). I have a very narrow set of guys who are my type physically, provided the personality is there. 

[Xilizhra]

You aren't a developer, you won't get the chance to accommodate anything.

The tune the developers dance to is the one I do as well, thankfully.

I don't really know to be honest. They sort of tried what I was talking about with Anders but it didn't feel right at all. Abolishing his relationship with Karl just because the PC is female? Yeah yeah I know alternate reality and all but as Ieldra2 said, I can't make myself schizophrenic.

Your idea may work better once you know what you want.