1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The characters being bi wouldn't take these tidbits out. Nickel and diming resources could.

Then tell them not to do that, instead of saying to drop romance equality.

[Iakus]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
I actually don't think this would've been such a polarizing issue on the usual suspects (4chan, Reddit, etc) or even here on the BSN if the game's writing as a whole had been stronger. Also doesn't help that Bioware, EA, other sites, and even fans have been more than willing to shrug off criticism of many sorts with "They just don't like the fact we're including LGBT friendly content!"

You may be right.  It may simply be DA2 was so strapped for time and resources that even having the LIs pull double duty didn't free up enough to really make them shine.

But I can't shake the feeling it's more than that.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

The characters being bi wouldn't take these tidbits out. Nickel and diming resources could.

Then tell them not to do that, instead of saying to drop romance equality.

I never said that!

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
I didn't say that.  Heck, all bi LI's would be preferable, since there's a better chance the player's gender may be acknowledged..

I'll take your word for it with Fable.

Fair enough.

But yeah. Fable's romance have very little substance and straight/gay/bi NPCs. It's bleh. I only did it to get some brats to make evil. (and come to think of it it didn't even work MOLYNEUX! *shakes fist*) 

But again, would gender-specific outcomes have any place in this new system?

considering said outcome had nothing to do with romance. Why wouldn't it? 

Morrigan has a child with the Warden regardless if they are LIs, whether the Dark Ritual is done or not.

No no she does not. Morrigan has not once had a baby when I had a male PC who did the US. He doesn't touch her, he doesn't tell Alistair about the DR. He takes the US. There is no baby in that scenario.

Meanwhile she can have a baby in my female playthrough. The baby isn't dependant on a male PC.

The characters being bi wouldn't take these tidbits out.  Nickel and diming resources could.

True but that's content *everyone* could potentially see without having to romance said character (or at least it's broadly gender based and that has a decent sized audience). It simply would have dialogue differences in the case of a romance.

Alistair can always marry Anora even if it's not the femPC. FemPC just gives that scene additional varations. Same with Morrigan and the male PC with the DR. She can have the baby other ways (with Alistair or Loghain). It's additional content that has variations for people that don't romance those characters/do the DR/want to marry or can marry them thus affects all players in some way.

Those scenes were plot heavy scenes with variations influenced by other factors including romance and PC gender. That's completely doable in a all bi LI system.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2013 - 04:09 .

[Hazegurl]

iakus wrote...

I mean,  how likely would it have been for Alistair to make a female Cousland his Queen if a male Cousland could also romance him?

What are the odds Morrigan would have born the Warden's child without the Dark Ritual if a female Warden could romance her?

These are gender-restricted outcomes to romances.  Is it resource-friendly to include these details?

Note I'm not saying these details could never happen.  I am saying that being too resource-friendly can lead to this, and I fear the DA2 romances are the first steps down that path.

I don't get what you mean. A female Warden can talk Alistair into having sex with Morrigan or a gay male warden who doesn't want to risk death can still have sex with her. Even if a female warden was gay she can still talk Alistair into doing the deed. My gay Cousland had sex with Morrigan himself. Any Warden who can't marry Alistair can be his side dish. Why can't a male warden be Alistair's side piece as well? It's not like there aren't Kings who have a wife and male lovers on the side. are you saying these things still can't be added if Alistair or Morrigan was gay?

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...
What are the odds Morrigan would have born the Warden's child without the Dark Ritual if a female Warden could romance her?

...She wouldn't. She'd get the child the same way she does if the PC's female.

To be fair, you completely misunderstood their point--probably due to the awkward wording.  They're referring to the fact that Morrigan can still become pregnant by the (Male, obviously) Warden even without the presence of the Dark Ritual, and asking whether it's likely that her getting pregnant from romancing a male Warden would have happened if Morrigan had been available as an LI to either gender.

That's what they're asking, and while I suppose it's a fair thing to wonder about, I feel it should be pointed out that Anders does mention the possibility of children to a F!Hawke, even though the same line doesn't exist for the other version because it can't apply.  Granted, it's not exactly analagous to compare a dialogue referencing children to the fact of an LI actually becoming pregnant, but it [i]is there, so I'm not at all convinced that Bioware would strip content from one LI/PC pairing on the grounds of it not being applicable to another one.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 juin 2013 - 04:16 .

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...
To be fair, you completely misunderstood their point--probably due to the awkward wording.  They're referring to the fact that Morrigan can still become pregnant by the (Male, obviously) Warden even without the presence of the Dark Ritual, and asking whether it's likely that her getting pregnant from romancing a male Warden would have happened if Morrigan had been available as an LI to either gender.

That's what they're asking, and while I suppose it's a fair thing to wonder about, I feel it should be pointed out that Anders does mention the possibility of children to a F!Hawke, even though the same line doesn't exist for the other version because it can't apply.  Granted, it's not exactly analagous to compare a dialogue referencing children to the fact of an LI actually becoming pregnant, but it is there, so I'm not at all convinced that Bioware would strip content from one LI/PC pairing on the grounds of it not being applicable to another one.

And my question becomes...why not? The DR was a plot point. It wasn't dependant on a romance. The romance simply added more variation. A s/s romance with Morrigan would simply add a different dialogue variation while having the same requirements as the femPC has (convincing Alistair). The baby from a normal coupling was simply a epilogue slide. I don't see why that'd suddenly be taken out. It's a varation. Instead of god baby there's normal baby.

Especially not plot releveant content.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2013 - 04:24 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

No no she does not. Morrigan has not once had a baby when I had a male PC who did the US. He doesn't touch her, he doesn't tell Alistair about the DR. He takes the US. There is no baby in that scenario.

Meanwhile she can have a baby in my female playthrough. The baby isn't dependant on a male PC.

My Surana Warden had Morrigan as his LI.  They did not do the US.  They had a son  "Your son is healthy.  And safe.  And he is not here...He is an innocent, Warden, you endanger his life at your peril".

True but that's content *everyone* could potentially see without having to romance said character (or at least it's broadly gender based and that has a decent sized audience). It simply would have slight dialogue differences in the case of a romance.

Alistair can always marry Anora even if it's not the femPC. femPC just gives that scene additional varations. Same with Morrigan and the male PC with the DR. She can have the baby other ways. It's additional content that has variations for people that don't romance those characters/do the DR/marry. It's not replaced with nadda if you decide not to do the DR/romance them.

It's these additional variations that make the romances feel unique, though.  It's actually one thing I liked about the firndship/rivalry system in that it provided a degree of variety in the relationships.  Including the romances.  

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
My Surana Warden had Morrigan as his LI.  They did not do the US.  They had a son  "Your son is healthy.  And safe.  And he is not here...He is an innocent, Warden, you endanger his life at your peril".

And that's simply a varation of the DR with a male romance input. I fail to see how that makes Morrigan being in a s/s romance with a femPC and still doing the DR to save her lovers life any less likely. She's still preganant. There's just different circumstances. (same goes for normal baby with the US/WC ending done). The dialogue would tweak sure but that's all.

What I'm saying is a s/s romance is just an additional variation for additional dialogue same scene, slightly different lines.

It's these additional variations that make the romances feel unique, though.  It's actually one thing I liked about the firndship/rivalry system in that it provided a degree of variety in the relationships.  Including the romances. 

And just because the LIs are all bi doesn't mean those variations all vanish. Isabela and Anders romances show that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2013 - 04:28 .

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...
To be fair, you completely misunderstood their point--probably due to the awkward wording.  They're referring to the fact that Morrigan can still become pregnant by the (Male, obviously) Warden even without the presence of the Dark Ritual, and asking whether it's likely that her getting pregnant from romancing a male Warden would have happened if Morrigan had been available as an LI to either gender.

That's what they're asking, and while I suppose it's a fair thing to wonder about, I feel it should be pointed out that Anders does mention the possibility of children to a F!Hawke, even though the same line doesn't exist for the other version because it can't apply.  Granted, it's not exactly analagous to compare a dialogue referencing children to the fact of an LI actually becoming pregnant, but it is there, so I'm not at all convinced that Bioware would strip content from one LI/PC pairing on the grounds of it not being applicable to another one.

And my question becomes...why not? The DR was a plot point. It wasn't dependant on a romance. The romance simply added more variation. A s/s romance with Morrigan would simply add a different dialogue variation while having the same requirements as the femPC has (convincing Alistair). The baby from a normal coupling was simply a epilogue slide. I don't see why that'd suddenly be taken out. It's a varation. Instead of god baby there's normal baby.

Especially not plot releveant content.

Okay, trying again.  They weren't talking about the DR at all (and probably shouldn't have brought it up), but the fact that if Morrigan is romanced by the Warden, and they have sex, she gets pregnant.  If Morrigan has sex with the Warden, the outcome is that she gets pregnant, even if the DR doesn't happen.  Iakus is suggesting that if Morrigan had been available to a female Warden, that Bioware would NOT have done that, would not have written Morrigan as getting pregnant by the male LI JUST as a consequence of romancing him.

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...
Okay, trying again.  They weren't talking about the DR at all (and probably shouldn't have brought it up), but the fact that if Morrigan is romanced by the Warden, and they have sex, she gets pregnant.  If Morrigan has sex with the Warden, the outcome is that she gets pregnant, even if the DR doesn't happen.  Iakus is suggesting that if Morrigan had been available to a female Warden, that Bioware would NOT have done that, would not have written Morrigan as getting pregnant by the male LI JUST as a consequence of romancing him.

And my question becomes...why not. She ends up preganant in the DR ending anyway. There simply becomes one more additional varation.

God baby/Normal baby/no baby.

God Baby and Normal baby could be similar. Or god baby and no baby at all could be similar. Not to mention...it's an epilogue slide. That's hardly damaging to resources.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

And just because the LIs are all bi doesn't mean those variations all vanish. Isabela and Anders romances show that.

And as I said, if characters really are bi, you might be right.

But if they are simply playersexual characters with mostly copy/paste dialogue, that's what I'm concerned about.

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Okay, trying again.  They weren't talking about the DR at all (and probably shouldn't have brought it up), but the fact that if Morrigan is romanced by the Warden, and they have sex, she gets pregnant.  If Morrigan has sex with the Warden, the outcome is that she gets pregnant, even if the DR doesn't happen.  Iakus is suggesting that if Morrigan had been available to a female Warden, that Bioware would NOT have done that, would not have written Morrigan as getting pregnant by the male LI JUST as a consequence of romancing him.

And my question becomes...why not. She ends up preganant in the DR ending anyway. There simply becomes one more additional varation.

For the record, for the purpose of this particular issue, the DR is completely irrelevant.  I don't agree with Iakus that stripped down romance content is a likely result of all-inclusive LIs, but I can at least understand the point of their concern.  The DR has nothing to do with it. 

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...
And as I said, if characters really are bi, you might be right.

But if they are simply playersexual characters with mostly copy/paste dialogue, that's what I'm concerned about.

And how are you to say they're playersexual or not? 

My male PC being interested in Fenris doesn't suddenly stop him from flirting with Isabela (does stop him from sleeping with her though. ). That's not very playersexual.

As for mostly copy paste dialogue...doesn't bother me. *shrugs* I'm more bothered by the mentioning my female PC is a female every five minutes like it's some magical revelation. (Was funny in Sten's case though).

@Silfren: It's a epilogue slide. Let's be honest. That's not something that's gonna require a whole lotta thought about Morrigan being available to both genders. Heck I think it even has a similar description to the DR one. And there's another slide for the male PC having her ring. It's not like hordes of manhours went into that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2013 - 04:41 .

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

And my question becomes...why not? The DR was a plot point. It wasn't dependant on a romance. The romance simply added more variation. A s/s romance with Morrigan would simply add a different dialogue variation while having the same requirements as the femPC has (convincing Alistair). The baby from a normal coupling was simply a epilogue slide. I don't see why that'd suddenly be taken out. It's a varation. Instead of god baby there's normal baby.

Especially not plot releveant content.

Because I am concerned that this will in fact lead to fewer variations, more generic dialogue, copy/paste outcomes.

Silly concern?  Maybe.  But the concern is there.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LPPrince wrote...

Where's that quote of Gaider saying that if the resources were there and they could do it, he'd prefer to have equal measures of straight, same and bisexual romance options, rather than all available to everyone? But that if the resources for that aren't there, they'll go with all romances available to everyone?

I wouldn't know where to look but its out there somewhere, probably in this thread already.

I remember that quote, yes. And in a way, I think it's disappointing that Bioware feels romances, an arguably small facet of their games, must cater equally to all sexual orientations. Even if they do manage this one day it won't make everyone happy because you'll inevitably have people claim they don't like the LIs open to them and would prefer to romance that LI over there who's just not into them because the PC's gender isn't what gets them interested.

In short, they can't win.

[Silfren]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And just because the LIs are all bi doesn't mean those variations all vanish. Isabela and Anders romances show that.

And as I said, if characters really are bi, you might be right.

But if they are simply playersexual characters with mostly copy/paste dialogue, that's what I'm concerned about.

Would you mind explaining just exactly what the differences are between what you perceive as playersexual rather than bisexual?  Gaider himself has explicitly denied that they are playersexual, but frankly, I'm really not sure what the difference is, since I see the LIs in DA2 as being either bisexual or even just sexual, and for the life of me can't really see a substantive quality about them that specifically differentiates marks them as playersexual and definitively NOT bisexual. 

[Silfren]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Where's that quote of Gaider saying that if the resources were there and they could do it, he'd prefer to have equal measures of straight, same and bisexual romance options, rather than all available to everyone? But that if the resources for that aren't there, they'll go with all romances available to everyone?

I wouldn't know where to look but its out there somewhere, probably in this thread already.

I remember that quote, yes. And in a way, I think it's disappointing that Bioware feels romances, an arguably small facet of their games, must cater equally to all sexual orientations. Even if they do manage this one day it won't make everyone happy because you'll inevitably have people claim they don't like the LIs open to them and would prefer to romance that LI over there who's just not into them because the PC's gender isn't what gets them interested.

In short, they can't win.

This...doesn't really make any sense, given the way Bioware makes its LIs all-inclusive right now means that they ARE managing to do it, right now, and all the LIs already ARE available to the PC regardless of gender. 

Bioware is not attempting to make everyone happy. That never has been their goal, probably because I'm sure they all already know that it isn't humanly possible.  But they do strive to make as many people as possible happy, and the all-inclusive approach they take to the LIs is the best option.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And my question becomes...why not? The DR was a plot point. It wasn't dependant on a romance. The romance simply added more variation. A s/s romance with Morrigan would simply add a different dialogue variation while having the same requirements as the femPC has (convincing Alistair). The baby from a normal coupling was simply a epilogue slide. I don't see why that'd suddenly be taken out. It's a varation. Instead of god baby there's normal baby.

Especially not plot releveant content.

Because I am concerned that this will in fact lead to fewer variations, more generic dialogue, copy/paste outcomes.

Silly concern?  Maybe.  But the concern is there.

Considering most of those varations you listed were plot important outcomes that had romance tidbits added...(which DA2 didn't really. Only plot important LIs were Isabela and Anders and you had little to no impact on their choices when it came to their plotlines. Isabela stole the book before hand and handing her over to the Arishok just plain ends the romance, Anders always blows up the Chantry). I'm not seeing how s/s LIs lead to fewer variations. If anything it'd increase the amount of variation.

[Iakus]

Silfren wrote...

Would you mind explaining just exactly what the differences are between what you perceive as playersexual rather than bisexual?  Gaider himself has explicitly denied that they are playersexual, but frankly, I'm really not sure what the difference is, since I see the LIs in DA2 as being either bisexual or even just sexual, and for the life of me can't really see a substantive quality about them that specifically differentiates marks them as playersexual and definitively NOT bisexual. 

I see it as the difference between an npc who is in fact attracted to both men and women (Leliana, Zevran, Isabela, for example) versus an npc who's sexuality is defined by the player character's

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering most of those varations you listed were plot important outcomes that had romance tidbits added...(which DA2 didn't really. Only plot important LIs were Isabela and Anders and you had little to no impact on their choices when it came to their plotlines. Isabela stole the book before hand and handing her over to the Arishok just plain ends the romance, Anders always blows up the Chantry). I'm not seeing how s/s LIs lead to fewer variations. If anything it'd increase the amount of variation.

s/s doesn't.  Copy/paste could.

Let me put it this way:  If we are in fact only getting four LIs again who are available to all, I want it to feel like there are eight (at least)

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

s/s doesn't.  Copy/paste could.

Let me put it this way:  If we are in fact only getting four LIs again who are available to all, I want it to feel like there are eight (at least)

Fair enough.

I don't see it myself but to each their own.

[Silfren]

iakus wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Would you mind explaining just exactly what the differences are between what you perceive as playersexual rather than bisexual?  Gaider himself has explicitly denied that they are playersexual, but frankly, I'm really not sure what the difference is, since I see the LIs in DA2 as being either bisexual or even just sexual, and for the life of me can't really see a substantive quality about them that specifically differentiates marks them as playersexual and definitively NOT bisexual. 

I see it as the difference between an npc who is in fact attracted to both men and women (Leliana, Zevran, Isabela, for example) versus an npc who's sexuality is defined by the player character's

I guess I don't see anything in DA2 that implies that the companions are ever defined by the character.  There is a heavily implied flirtation between Merrill and Carver.  Isabela and Fenris have a sexual relationship if neither are involved with the player.  Anders is the only one that comes close to what you describe, but his own story refutes the idea that his sexuality is defined by the player: he acknowledges a previous relationship with Karl to a male Hawke, and to either Hawke makes it clear that he avoided committed relationships for his own reasons, plus we know from Awakening that he had sexual relationships with women...not to mention he alludes to sex in DA2. 

What, about any of that, suggests that they have no sexuality except according to the PC?

[daaaav]

Silfren wrote...


I guess I don't see anything in DA2 that implies that the companions are ever defined by the character.  There is a heavily implied flirtation between Merrill and Carver.  Isabela and Fenris have a sexual relationship if neither are involved with the player.  Anders is the only one that comes close to what you describe, but his own story refutes the idea that his sexuality is defined by the player: he acknowledges a previous relationship with Karl to a male Hawke, and to either Hawke makes it clear that he avoided committed relationships for his own reasons, plus we know from Awakening that he had sexual relationships with women...not to mention he alludes to sex in DA2. 

What, about any of that, suggests that they have no sexuality except according to the PC?

Nicely put. Your question does however highlight that Bioware have been able to develop the  bisexual characters (Anders and Isabella) to a greater extent (in terms of their sexualities) than the more "player sexual" ones (Fenris and Merrill). As I said before, the impact of this varies with the natures of each character and I am not saying that Bioware CANNOT make this work in DAI but I will say that Isabella and Anders felt like more complete characters than Fenris or Merrill. 

[Silfren]

daaaav wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I guess I don't see anything in DA2 that implies that the companions are ever defined by the character.  There is a heavily implied flirtation between Merrill and Carver.  Isabela and Fenris have a sexual relationship if neither are involved with the player.  Anders is the only one that comes close to what you describe, but his own story refutes the idea that his sexuality is defined by the player: he acknowledges a previous relationship with Karl to a male Hawke, and to either Hawke makes it clear that he avoided committed relationships for his own reasons, plus we know from Awakening that he had sexual relationships with women...not to mention he alludes to sex in DA2. 

What, about any of that, suggests that they have no sexuality except according to the PC?

Nicely put. Your question does however highlight that Bioware have been able to develop the  bisexual characters (Anders and Isabella) to a greater extent (in terms of their sexualities) than the more "player sexual" ones (Fenris and Merrill). As I said before, the impact of this varies with the natures of each character and I am not saying that Bioware CANNOT make this work in DAI but I will say that Isabella and Anders felt like more complete characters than Fenris or Merrill. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say since I just refuted the idea that either Merrill or Fenris are playersexual, if we define that by whether they have sexual expressions outside of the PC.  This is objectively demonstated with Fenris in concrete terms, and Merrill's is strongly implied.  So my question doesn't highlight what you think it does, I'm afraid.  It actually shows that these allegedly playersexual characters ARE defined separately from the PC in terms of their sexuality.