1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Thomas Andresen]

Ziggeh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

How on Earth does arbitrarily gating content based on character gender add any depth to anything at all?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the case being made is that having potentially contradictory information about a character appear within two different playthroughs creates a less clear mental image than one set in stone.

That is the general argument being made, but I don't really see anything to support the notion that the information they have is contradictory.

[slimgrin]

daaaav wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

How on Earth does arbitrarily gating content based on character gender add any depth to anything at all?

Why should a game be so exclusively focused on PC sexual orientation?

It's not exclusively focused, it is unfortunate that the one facet of the game that attempts to broaden the inclusivness of the gaming industry has been limited to optional side content rather than permiating through the whole experience. The romance elements of the game ARE BROKEN because they exist more to serve the players rather than the story.

I can agree with that. Progressive they are not.

[Thomas Andresen]

daaaav wrote...

The romance elements of the game ARE BROKEN because they exist more to serve the players rather than the story.

If that's what they are, it's because that's what they've always been.

[Ziggeh]

daaaav wrote...
The romance elements of the game ARE BROKEN because they exist more to serve the players rather than the story.

I don't know, the relationships I've played in all of the games have changed the way I've percieved things and informed decisions I've made outside of the romances.

[Sylvianus]

Ziggeh wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There's at least something that I noticed with this kind of topic " they are all bi ". I feel that everyone doesn't think the same way at all about how that system worked, which is absolutely weird while it should be something we could at least agree on even if we disagree on its effects.

That's pretty much a failure from Bioware when so many folks ( from both sides ) aren't even able to describe exactly what they have experienced with that feature in the game, totally confused by this system.

Not at all.

Some people consider Bioware games to be action games, some see them as roleplaying toolsets, others as interactive novels, and everything in between. They are all entirely and equally valid. There are different ways to interpret the same information. Interpretation is practically the basis of artistic and storytelling mediums, and it's far from weird that different people will see things different ways - indeed it would be incredibly bizarre if we did.

So we can read them as bisexual or read them as player defined. Both are valid, and as people will tend to do this unconciously, it's not confusing to them.

Interpretation is very limited when it comes to the operating mode of a feature. When people discuss the friendship / rivalry system, there are not many interpretations , with only people who are mistaken  and are corrected by others about how it works.

Inaccuracies, contradictions everywhere. I've seen people from the same side defending they are all bi system, because it allows the player to choose the sexuality of the npc, but actually, this is not true that people can choose their sexuality because some characters are actually defined like Isabela and Anders. But actually, they are all bisexual and that's not true that we can choose their sexuality. But actually, their sexuality simply doesn't exist in DAII, they don't have any relevance, that's the point. 

Headhache. And the same from the other side, to be honest.

Interpretation is almost everywhere, I agree, but when the confusion is reaching a certain scale, the author must ask himself if he has really managed to convey the message he wanted to convey, or if he has really designed perfectly his system or not in my opinion. 

And the worst is that topic after topic, two years after the release, it's the same huge confusion XD !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 juin 2013 - 12:43 .

[Siansonea]

For practical reasons, I think having most romanceable characters available to both genders is a good idea. Simply romance your favorite option and call it a day. Don't worry about what other players are doing. Just enjoy the depth, quality, and resource allocation that your favorite character has as a result of them being available to all players as an LI. It just seem odd to prioritize "realism" in a game where the "realism" ship sails as soon as you press Start. To me, there are much bigger roadblocks to realism in the games than "oh, other players can romance this character too". Like main storyline issues. The Pro-Mage/Pro-Templar dichotomy in DA2 was a HUGE deal to me, but all people can talk about is that Anders can sleep with dudes too. Why is this the sticking point for people, when there are bigger fish to fry?

[Thomas Andresen]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...
If that's what they are, it's because that's what they've always been.

They've gone steadily downhill in each successive game.

I disagree, but that's how opinions work.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

How on Earth does arbitrarily gating content based on character gender add any depth to anything at all?

Why should a game be so exclusively focused on PC sexual orientation?

It's not exclusively focused. It is unfortunate that the one facet of the game that attempts to broaden the inclusivness of the gaming industry has been limited to optional side content rather than permiating through the whole experience. The romance elements of the game ARE BROKEN because they exist more to serve the players rather than the story.

Romances were always optional side content in every single Bioware game.

Not having romance "permate through the whole experience" does not make the content "broken", that is just your personal storytelling preference not being catered to. In fact, I've yet to see romance be a "necessary" part of any story where romance was not the primary focus. You can remove the romantic subplot from nearly every fantasy story without affecting the overall plot in any significant way.

Romance should be optional side content, because some people don't want to engage with it at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 juin 2013 - 12:46 .

[slimgrin]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...
If that's what they are, it's because that's what they've always been.

They've gone steadily downhill in each successive game.

I disagree, but that's how opinions work.

ME1 and DA:O were the best Bioware had to offer on this front. Just my opinion.

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 juin 2013 - 12:26 .

[Ziggeh]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the case being made is that having potentially contradictory information about a character appear within two different playthroughs creates a less clear mental image than one set in stone.

That is the general argument being made, but I don't really see anything to support the notion that the information they have is contradictory.

Which is why I threw the caveat in there. I think you can choose to see them as either bisexual or "playersexual", but we need to recognise that most people aren't going to make that choice conciously. It's a bit of a weird one, because once you're aware it's a choice, you can no longer make the case either is a problem, unless you don't want both.

[Thomas Andresen]

Plaintiff wrote...

Romance should be optional side content, because some people don't want to engage with it at all.

I am reminded of this blog post. Particularly his reference to the "three doors experiment".

"But. But. The romance content is there, so I have to play it."

[Sylvianus]

Siansonea II wrote...
Why is this the sticking point for people, when there are bigger fish to fry?

Are you asking those who disagree with you or everyone ?

Why does it matter to you  when it does matter for me ? Right ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 juin 2013 - 12:34 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

To me the LIs are nice to have. Like all features it would be great if there was more attention to it.

*still hears Merrill mumbling something a bout Sandal*

However, in general the story writing itself wasn't that great in DA2. I hope that they focus more on getting us a better main story.

Edit: Oh! And bow strings. I want bow strings.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juin 2013 - 12:33 .

[Thomas Andresen]

slimgrin wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

I disagree, but that's how opinions work.

ME1 and DA:O were the best Bioware had to offer on this front. Just my opinion.

I don't think I could point out any particular game the way you did there.

[Nole]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To me the LIs are nice to have. Like all features it would be great if there was more attention to it.

*still hears Merrill mumbling something a bout Sandal*

However, in general the story writing itself wasn't that great in DA2. I hope that they focus more on getting us a better main story.

Edit: Oh! And bow strings. I want bow strings.

Kind of hard when almost everyone is more interested (and pretty much asking for) on having a harem, than the main plot of the game.

[Ziggeh]

Sylvianus wrote...

Interpretation is very limited when it comes to the operating mode of a feature. When people discuss the friendship / rivalry system, there are not many interpretations , with only people who are mistaken  and are corrected by others about how it works;

I'm not sure that's a solid comparison, as that system is essentially mathematical. Cause and effect. To give another example: When someone dies to Hawke's blade, did I kill them, or did Hawke? Is Hawke an extension of me or an individual character I've constructed? Both are valid positions. It depends on your interpretation.

I'm not sure you can say that every developer who's made a third person game should go away and think about whether they've managed to convey their point because of the potential for confusion.

Sylvianus wrote...

Interpretation is almost everywhere, I agree, but when the confusion is reaching a certain scale, the author must ask himself if he has really managed to convey the massage he wanted to convey, or if he has really designed perfectly his system or not in my opinion.

As I say, I don't think most people would be confused, because they would have their own way of engaging with the medium and would simply use that. It's only when you come into contact with other peoples interpretations that you see the differences. Well, unless you've read this thread, I guess.

[Sjpelke]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To me the LIs are nice to have. Like all features it would be great if there was more attention to it.

*still hears Merrill mumbling something a bout Sandal*

However, in general the story writing itself wasn't that great in DA2. I hope that they focus more on getting us a better main story.

Edit: Oh! And bow strings. I want bow strings.

Yes! Bow strings! Would love to play as an also bow using rogue!

Solid main plot and great LI related story for everyones taste would certainly be a match made in heaven story wise.

Oh! And wrapping up loose ends in the game which can be wrapped of course.

Modifié par TsadeeHekate, 30 juin 2013 - 12:50 .

[Thomas Andresen]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Kind of hard when almost everyone is more interested (and pretty much asking for) on having a harem, than the main plot of the game.

Saying "this is an important issue" is a far cry from saying "we want this to be the main focus of the game".

[Plaintiff]

Sylvianus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Why is this the sticking point for people, when there are bigger fish to fry?

Are you asking those who disagree with you or everyone ?

Why does it matter to you  when it does matter for me ? Right ?

The ones that disagree with her are the ones that are making the bigger deal out of romances, which is what she's talking about.

Everyone who likes the way DA2 handles romance is automatically treating it like less of a big deal than the people who dislike it, who base their entire argument on the premise that this feature makes the characters (if not the entire game) "ruined" or "broken".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 juin 2013 - 12:45 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

WittingEight65 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To me the LIs are nice to have. Like all features it would be great if there was more attention to it.

*still hears Merrill mumbling something a bout Sandal*

However, in general the story writing itself wasn't that great in DA2. I hope that they focus more on getting us a better main story.

Edit: Oh! And bow strings. I want bow strings.

Kind of hard when almost everyone is more interested (and pretty much asking for) on having a harem, than the main plot of the game.

Don't get me wrong. I still think good romance stories would be nice. It's almost BW's claim to fame. I hope they stay. It's just that the main story wasn't all that great.

And no bow strings.

[The Hierophant]

Yeah sadly DA's bows have no strings.

[Thomas Andresen]

The Hierophant wrote...

Yeah sadly DA's bows have no strings.

Except that some developer posts(that I can't be bothered to look up right now) have at the very least hinted that visual bowstrings will be very likely to appear in DAI. I think the wording was something along the lines of "the lack of bowstrings in DAO and DAII was due to a limitation in the old engine and the new engine don't have that limitation".

Also, this sort of derailing of a thread's topic is frowned upon.