1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Shinian2 wrote...

What about 2 straight LI's, 2 bi and 2 gay? Would that be considered fair?

After all its a bit unrealistic for everyone to be attracted to the PC. I liked that Aveline turned Hawke down, or at least ignored his flirting. It made her seem more real to me. Rejection is part of life.

This issue has been covered recently in the thread a few times already, by myself and others.  Simply put, it does not solve the issue of people who get locked out of certain LIs if they don't want to play the gender that those LIs are available to.

Take note that nobody argues against rejection itself, just rejection on gendered grounds.  Aveline does not reject Hawke on the issue of gender, so using this to argue against the specific issue of gender-based rejection is invalid.

I should also note that thus far for DA in the case of LIs, there has been NO rejection based on gender, even when we had orientation-specific LIs.  Unless I somehow managed to miss it, in Origins, a male Warden doesn't have the option of being rejected by Alistair, because the dialogue does not allow the subject to ever come up.  Likewise with Morrigan and a female Warden. 

Modifié par Silfren, 30 juin 2013 - 03:18 .

[Plaintiff]

Shinian2 wrote...
What about 2 straight LI's, 2 bi and 2 gay? Would that be considered fair?

Possibly, but why not make all of them "bi"? It takes hardly any extra effort to just change a couple of pronouns, especially since the protagonist will likely be addressed mostly by title or surname. Their gender need never come up.

If they can double a player's choices with minimum expenditure, why wouldn't they?

After all its a bit unrealistic for everyone to be attracted to the PC. I liked that Aveline turned Hawke down, or at least ignored his flirting. It made her seem more real to me. Rejection is part of life.

Taxes and bathing are a part of life too, but games tend not to cover those because they suck and are boring.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 juin 2013 - 03:19 .

[slimgrin]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I've never asked for this. Not once.

And what, exactly, did you not ask for?

Or better yet, what exactly is it you are asking for?

For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

[Thomas Andresen]

Shinian2 wrote...

What about 2 straight LI's, 2 bi and 2 gay? Would that be considered fair?

It's been suggested before, and the more I think on it, the less I think it's any better than having an uneven spread.

[Silfren]

slimgrin wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I've never asked for this. Not once.

And what, exactly, did you not ask for?

Or better yet, what exactly is it you are asking for?

For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

Er.  Whether they're considered art or not, to make a profit is the entire point of the gaming industry's existence. 

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Taxes and bathing are a part of life too, but games tend not to cover those because they suck and are boring.

Ugh... given the time period, no matter how many washtubs I see in the DA houses I try to not think about people bathing. Or not bathing, as it were, especially in DAO.

[Thomas Andresen]

slimgrin wrote...

For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

Uh BioWare's not doing that. BioWare have been listening to fan feedback since before Baldur's Gate.

[Spatchmo]

slimgrin wrote...


For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

You realize that the Dragon Age developers would likely be including same sex and player sexual relationships without any publisher or fan input at this point anyway, right? Bioware has been doing gay and bisexual romances since at least Jade Empire; probably even before that. So it's kind of odd that you would be complaining about Bioware of all companies being orientation inclusive.

Also, I thought the player sexual romances in Dragon Age 2 worked out really well. I do agree with the people that weren't happy that Anders didn't mention his relationship to the older mage to female Hawke though. That seemed like an important part of Anders' backstory that shouldn't have been glossed over, in my opinion.

[Plaintiff]

slimgrin wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I've never asked for this. Not once.

And what, exactly, did you not ask for?

Or better yet, what exactly is it you are asking for?

For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

Pfft.

Because that's why Dragon Age features equality for sexual minorities, because the fans and the industry demanded it. Let's ignore the fact that the gaming community is extremely toxic and bigoted, and that developers struggle to get games published that feature heterosexual female protagonists, nevermind gay characters of either gender.

Let's also ignore the fact that the entire Mass Effect trilogy is grossly weighted in favour of straight males.

[Sjpelke]

Plaintiff wrote...

TsadeeHekate wrote...

So.....

Overall BW seems to do a pretty good job in catering to everyones wishes in the romance department.

People who play a game with an LI option overall take the route where their orientation is at, to which DA provides. I for one do not see the problem here.

If people start reading about other routes companions CAN take ingame other than the one they chose or would like to see, well...they got 'spoiled' about that because they read that information which should not take away the enjoyment they got from playing THEIR game imho.

But how can I enjoy a game if people play it differently to me? I need Bioware to cater to only me, and everyone else had just damn well better hope that their desires align with mine.

Have no idea what your wishes are; can only go from my point of view which I gave and you quoted that.

How you would like to play your game is up to you and BW decides how they write their game which is ultimately what you get when you play it.

Am getting into this but do not see the logic in your quote of my post and will not respond if there is no substantial reason given other than you not taking other people in account who play the same game you play not accepting their point of view/way of playing.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...
What about 2 straight LI's, 2 bi and 2 gay? Would that be considered fair?

Possibly, but why not make all of them "bi"? It takes hardly any extra effort to just change a couple of pronouns, especially since the protagonist will likely be addressed mostly by title or surname. Their gender need never come up.

If they can double a player's choices with minimum expenditure, why wouldn't they?

After all its a bit unrealistic for everyone to be attracted to the PC. I liked that Aveline turned Hawke down, or at least ignored his flirting. It made her seem more real to me. Rejection is part of life.

Taxes and bathing are a part of life too, but games tend not to cover those because they suck and are boring.

1. Because apparently some people have objections to doing that? I'm suggesting a compromise. Why does it always have to be 'my way or the highway' with some people?

2. Well, it depends on who you are bathing with.

But seriously, bathing and taxes are things that are plainly not interesting subjects of gameplay, whereas the possibility of rejection is an integral part of romance. Or do you successfully romance every man you are interested in real life?

[nightscrawl]

Spatchmo wrote...

I do agree with the people that weren't happy that Anders didn't mention his relationship to the older mage to female Hawke though. That seemed like an important part of Anders' backstory that shouldn't have been glossed over, in my opinion.

I did used to be quite irritated by this, but have since gotten over it. It's been explained to me that it is more of a male/female dynamic thing than anything else. A man telling a woman that he used to be involved with another man tends to not go over very well. So, in that respect I think it's OK. On the other hand, I as a gamer (not as a woman) would have liked to know about it simply because it just seems like I missed out on something playing as a female PC those first times.

David Gaider wrote...

... or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)...

Seeing his response now is really quite amusing, and I actually feel bad about my rantings in that thread lol... Oh well. Live and learn.

[Thomas Andresen]

Spatchmo wrote...

Bioware has been doing gay and bisexual romances since at least Jade Empire; probably even before that. So it's kind of odd that you would be complaining about Bioware of all companies being orientation inclusive.

Technically, BioWare's first venture with gay romances was Juhani in KotOR, but considering how there was nothing even remotely explicit about that one, Silk Fox and Sky are the first ones that actually count.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

What about 2 straight LI's, 2 bi and 2 gay? Would that be considered fair?

It's been suggested before, and the more I think on it, the less I think it's any better than having an uneven spread.

Possibly, but really we already have this situation in every game, with every non romancable character. Just look at the Cullen threads here, noone can romance Varric or Aveline, or Oghren, or Sten or Wynne etc etc,

It just seems strange to be that some people seem to think the only way anything can be fair is if every li is exactly the same.

[Plaintiff]

Shinian2 wrote...
1. Because apparently some people have objections to doing that? I'm suggesting a compromise. Why does it always have to be 'my way or the highway' with some people?

I'm not opposed to the spread you suggested.

'

2. Well, it depends on who you are bathing with.

But seriously, bathing and taxes are things that are plainly not interesting subjects of gameplay, whereas the possibility of rejection is an integral part of romance. Or do you successfully romance every man you are interested in real life?

In real life, I have yet to successfully romance any man ever, and that's something I'd rather not think about when I'm trying to play a videogame that advertises choice (not just in romance but in every aspect) as one of its major selling points.

[slimgrin]

Spatchmo wrote...

slimgrin wrote...


For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

You realize that the Dragon Age developers would likely be including same sex and player sexual relationships without any publisher or fan input at this point anyway, right? 

Absolutely. EA can't parade this fact enough, not just with DA, but about everything they do. They are gay friendly. They say it all the time. Congrats to them. Really.

I was just providing the logic for my stance.

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 juin 2013 - 03:37 .

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

This issue has been covered recently in the thread a few times already, by myself and others.  Simply put, it does not solve the issue of people who get locked out of certain LIs if they don't want to play the gender that those LIs are available to.

Why is this a problem?

[Plaintiff]

TsadeeHekate wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TsadeeHekate wrote...

So.....

Overall BW seems to do a pretty good job in catering to everyones wishes in the romance department.

People who play a game with an LI option overall take the route where their orientation is at, to which DA provides. I for one do not see the problem here.

If people start reading about other routes companions CAN take ingame other than the one they chose or would like to see, well...they got 'spoiled' about that because they read that information which should not take away the enjoyment they got from playing THEIR game imho.

But how can I enjoy a game if people play it differently to me? I need Bioware to cater to only me, and everyone else had just damn well better hope that their desires align with mine.

Have no idea what your wishes are; can only go from my point of view which I gave and you quoted that.

How you would like to play your game is up to you and BW decides how they write their game which is ultimately what you get when you play it.

Am getting into this but do not see the logic in your quote of my post and will not respond if there is no substantial reason given other than you not taking other people in account who play the same game you play not accepting their point of view/way of playing.

I was being sarcastic. I am not arguing against you, I was just making a joke.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...

This issue has been covered recently in the thread a few times already, by myself and others.  Simply put, it does not solve the issue of people who get locked out of certain LIs if they don't want to play the gender that those LIs are available to.

Why is this a problem?

For the same reason that lack of customisation in other areas of the game is a problem for you.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

For the same reason that lack of customisation in other areas of the game is a problem for you.

When have I made a complaint over lack of customization?  I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

[Silfren]

nightscrawl wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

I do agree with the people that weren't happy that Anders didn't mention his relationship to the older mage to female Hawke though. That seemed like an important part of Anders' backstory that shouldn't have been glossed over, in my opinion.

I did used to be quite irritated by this, but have since gotten over it. It's been explained to me that it is more of a male/female dynamic thing than anything else. A man telling a woman that he used to be involved with another man tends to not go over very well. So, in that respect I think it's OK. On the other hand, I as a gamer (not as a woman) would have liked to know about it simply because it just seems like I missed out on something playing as a female PC those first times.

David Gaider wrote...

... or are somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman (in what world would someone do this?)...

Seeing his response now is really quite amusing, and I actually feel bad about my rantings in that thread lol... Oh well. Live and learn.

...So Anders would be afraid of being rejected by a woman to whom he just admitted to having a prior relationship with a man...but he's not, apparently, afraid of the repercussions of admitting that he's possessed?

What that exchange with Gaider really shows is nothing more than that Gaider failed to consider that a world without our real world prejudices toward sexual preferences is NOT going to have the same hangups.  Women that live in a society that doesn't care all that much about sexual preferences are not really going to get skeeved out by the idea of two men having sex.  That kind of attitude requires a specific cultural atmosphere that according to Gaider is not supposed to exist.

[Thomas Andresen]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

For the same reason that lack of customisation in other areas of the game is a problem for you.

When have I made a complaint over lack of customization?  I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

To rephrase:
"For the same reason that lack of customisation in other areas of the game is a problem for other people."

[Plaintiff]

slimgrin wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

slimgrin wrote...


For the writers to create what they would unfettered by fan or publisher input. A pipe dream now regarding Bioware, but on principle I'm against it.

You realize that the Dragon Age developers would likely be including same sex and player sexual relationships without any publisher or fan input at this point anyway, right? 

Absolutely. EA can't parade this fact enough, not just with DA, but about everything they do. They are gay friendly. They say it all the time. Congrats to them. Really.

I was just providing the logic for my stance.

That's your logic?

"Bioware says they're gay-friendly, so clearly they're just trying to grab that sweet, sweet pink dollar. They've completely sold out by expanding their demographic to include that extra ten percent of the population that still doesn't even have equal rights in most of the world."

Yeah, it's a textbook marketing move. They risk nothing at all by expressing support for the gay community. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

slimgrin wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The game shouldn't cater to your sexuality, nor your morality.

But it should do that for you?

I've never asked for this. Not once.

So I take it you are not the target audience of non-hetero romances? I remember the same kind of responses in the days female PCs were introduced. Balderdash!

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

For the same reason that lack of customisation in other areas of the game is a problem for you.

When have I made a complaint over lack of customization?  I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

It was a general "you".

But I bet if I wanted to waste an entire day on it, I could find a post of yours somewhere asking for more choices for feature xyz, or complaining about the lack of choices in same.