1981 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...
Fair enough, but on the other hand, I've heard that being stabbed with a  dagger sucks, to say the least, but I'd be very surprised if someone who had actually been stabbed would refuse to play a game where people fighting with daggers or swords is the games major selling point.

More to the point (no pun intended) I've only successfully romanced one woman in my life but being able to romance Morrigan, Miranda or Leliana doesnt remind me of the fact that I wouldn't stand a chance with women like that in real life, nor does it concern me. That is to say, I guess I don't see where you are coming from.

Being stabbed isn't boring, though. And while I don't see how this is relevant to the topic at hand, people who have been physically attacked in real life can be and often are bothered by fictional depictions of violence. Rape scenes or even the mention of rape, can trigger discomfort in people who have experienced that trauma in real life.

As for romances, characters aren't locked out of them based on their choice of species, or even (barring a few rare instances) for committing acts that their love interest finds utterly despicable. Compared to that, why would gender matter at all?

In fact, Dragon Age has deliberately crafted a society where gender matters very little. Why should the mechanics not reflect that?

Point taken reagrding the triggering. Bad analogy.

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

My problem, personally, with the romances in DA2 is not gender related at all. I just didn't like how thay played out. One chance every 'three years' to talk to an LI and then bam you're living together in the third act. They basically borrowed the Mass Effect stucture, which I didn't care for.

[Thomas Andresen]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, so it isn't even an option for them based upon their gender.  How dreadful that must be.

That's sort of opposite the point I was trying to make? Was Morrigan/Leliana explicitly posing as Mothers? I'm pretty sure they weren't. Brother Burkel ring a bell?

[Plaintiff]

Shinian2 wrote...
Why bring 'the real world' into this? In the real world most people are not bi,and most people will not automatically return your interest in them, regardless of gender or sexuality. Therefore you are not arguing for any 'real world' relationships in game, are you?

No, she's not. You're the one advocating a "real world" approach to romances. Silfren is arguing against that because, hey, Dragon Age is a fantasy game, and people aren't generally looking for realism when they pick up a fantasy game.

If we're going to approach Thedas with the intent of more closely emulating reality, then I suggest we start with getting rid of the dragons. Following that, the protagonist's choice of class should be "Waiter", "Day Labourer" or "Unemployed".

Quests will involve Lawn Mowing and TV Watching. There will also be time sensitive missions, like running out to buy milk before the store closes.

[Thomas Andresen]

Shinian2 wrote...

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

Having romances included at all is pandering. So why is that a bad thing?

[BlueMagitek]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

That's sort of opposite the point I was trying to make? Was Morrigan/Leliana explicitly posing as Mothers? I'm pretty sure they weren't. Brother Burkel ring a bell?

I don't know, the Drakon scene has only ever glitched for me with only one npc.  It has been very trying.

[Plaintiff]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

Having romances included at all is pandering. So why is that a bad thing?

Ah, but pandering to gays is selling out. Bioware is so mainstream now, the anti-"all-bi" crowd liked it before it was cool and gay.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

If we're going to approach Thedas with the intent of more closely emulating reality, then I suggest we start with getting rid of the dragons. Following that, the protagonist's choice of class should be "Waiter", "Day Labourer" or "Unemployed".

Quests will involve Lawn Mowing and TV Watching. There will also be time sensitive missions, like running out to buy milk before the store closes.

If this is the case it's someone else's damned turn to do the wash.  I am just so done with being chased home by dragons and blight wolves.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...
Why bring 'the real world' into this? In the real world most people are not bi,and most people will not automatically return your interest in them, regardless of gender or sexuality. Therefore you are not arguing for any 'real world' relationships in game, are you?

No, she's not. You're the one advocating a "real world" approach to romances. Silfren is arguing against that because, hey, Dragon Age is a fantasy game, and people aren't generally looking for realism when they pick up a fantasy game.

If we're going to approach Thedas with the intent of more closely emulating reality, then I suggest we start with getting rid of the dragons. Following that, the protagonist's choice of class should be "Waiter", "Day Labourer" or "Unemployed".

Quests will involve Lawn Mowing and TV Watching. There will also be time sensitive missions, like running out to buy milk before the store closes.

I'm not arguing for that at all. Read my last post. I know putting words into other posters mouths is part of the internet experience but it does get tiresome.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

Having romances included at all is pandering. So why is that a bad thing?

Ah, but pandering to gays is selling out. Bioware is so mainstream now, the anti-"all-bi" crowd liked it before it was cool and gay.

Hmm, maybe pandering was the wrong term. I'm not going to look for the exact quote through 30+ pages though. Condescending maybe?

For what its worth, the quote was from a gay person.

[Plaintiff]

Shinian2 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

Having romances included at all is pandering. So why is that a bad thing?

Ah, but pandering to gays is selling out. Bioware is so mainstream now, the anti-"all-bi" crowd liked it before it was cool and gay.

Hmm, maybe pandering was the wrong term. I'm not going to look for the exact quote through 30+ pages though. Condescending maybe?

For what its worth, the quote was from a gay person.

I remember it. Suffice to say, that as a gay person who claims to be at least as gay as any other gay person, I think that gay person is wrong.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Fair enough. up-thread someone mentioned 'all-bi' seemed to be pandering. I'm leaning towards that a bit currently.

Having romances included at all is pandering. So why is that a bad thing?

Ah, but pandering to gays is selling out. Bioware is so mainstream now, the anti-"all-bi" crowd liked it before it was cool and gay.

Hmm, maybe pandering was the wrong term. I'm not going to look for the exact quote through 30+ pages though. Condescending maybe?

For what its worth, the quote was from a gay person.

I remember it. Suffice to say, that as a gay person who claims to be at least as gay as any other gay person, I think that gay person is wrong.

What? You dont all think alike? My illusions are shattered!

As I said before though, my actual objection to DA2's romances are about how they were implemented, not whether the NPC was bi

[Thomas Andresen]

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

[Plaintiff]

Shinian2 wrote...
What? You dont all think alike? My illusions are shattered!

I know, right? You should see what happens when we all get together for the Annual Gay Convention in Cancun. Catfighting on every street corner, boxer-briefs in disarray, glitter all over the road, blinding drivers.

It's terrible.

[Thomas Andresen]

Shinian2 wrote...

As I said before though, my actual objection to DA2's romances are about how they were implemented, not whether the NPC was bi

Maybe you should clarify the difference before going further. It seems to me, you object to the romance options being all bi.

[David7204]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...
What? You dont all think alike? My illusions are shattered!

I know, right? You should see what happens when we all get together for the Annual Gay Convention in Cancun. Catfighting on every street corner, boxer-briefs in disarray, glitter all over the road, blinding drivers.

It's terrible.

Sounds an awful lot like St. Patrick's Day in Butte, America.  No lie.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

As I said before though, my actual objection to DA2's romances are about how they were implemented, not whether the NPC was bi

Maybe you should clarify the difference before going further. It seems to me, you object to the romance options being all bi.

I did, a few posts ago. It was promptly ignored. Such is the internet

As a recap though, since you asked.

My first post suggested a compromise, which led to a discussion between Plaintiff and I.

Then I said my actual objection to the romances was not the 'bi' thing, but that they were implemented like Mass Effect was. Talk 3 times and bam, right before the final mission you are doing the deed.

[Plaintiff]

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

What's the alternative? That being a bigot is the factory default setting?

[Silfren]

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

Well.  The wording may have been clunky, but it's quite literally impossible to avoid internalizing societal messages, so it is forced.  The best we can do is learn to recognize it and try to consciously fight it. 

Modifié par Silfren, 30 juin 2013 - 04:56 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

Yup, its far more likely that people simply have differing opinions.

[David7204]

The alternative is that not every perception about certain groups is people is based in bigotry. In fact, many are based on perfectly solid reasoning.

[Plaintiff]

David7204 wrote...

The alternative is that not every perception about certain groups is people is based in bigotry. In fact, many are based on perfectly solid reasoning.

Like which ones?

[Silfren]

Shinian2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

Yup, its far more likely that people simply have differing opinions.

Uh.  Did you miss the context of that statement? They were referring to gay persons having internalized anti-gay bigotry. 

[What a Succulent Ass]

David7204 wrote...

The alternative is that not every perception about certain groups is people is based in bigotry. In fact, many are based on perfectly solid reasoning.

My G, I think you should stop right there.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Plaintiff wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Being gay doesn't automatically clear your mind of the bigoted notions society have forced upon you.

Only self-awareness can do anything about that, and even then, that's only the first step.

Suggesting that the only way someone could have notions about such things is if society 'forced them' upon them is a bit irritating.

What's the alternative? That being a bigot is the factory default setting?

Sadly sometimes I think that's the case. But that discussion is off topic.

However, Thomas's comment was directed at the difference in opinion tbetween you and the other gay fellow. I'm not going to defend the other poster, but I doubt he is bigoted. he simply had a different opinion on a game mechanic than you.