1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

But did the game make this clear for you before you had to make the choice of your player character's gender?

I don't think that that matters for him (which is fine). He just likes the idea that the character he chose to create has some level of unique content.

In some cases, like in Vampire: Bloodlines, it doesn't really advertise that if you play a Tremere, that you'll get a unique player home (it can probably be inferred, for the Nosferatu, however).

[someguy1231]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

I thought the game made it clear enough, at least for the most significant parts. In my first playthrough I was female, and it was pretty easy to infer that, if I were male, I could've done the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, for example.

But did the game make this clear for you before you had to make the choice of your player character's gender?

No, nor would I want it to. Haven't you been reading what I've been saying these past few pages? Because if you have, you'd know that would be one of the most ineffective retorts possible against me.

Modifié par someguy1231, 30 juin 2013 - 10:29 .

[Ieldra]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If I may make one more attempt to clarify my stance on this issue:

(1) If the premise is "the game world adapts itself regarding an NPC's sexual orientation according to the PC's gender" (i.e. characters are "playersexual"), then there are no problems if you stick to a single playthrough and never communicate with others about alternate possibilities. In that case, some characters can have a defined orientation, others may not, it doesn't really matter.

(2) If in-world, "everyone is bi", that means that among a randomly selected group of people in this universe, all are attracted to both genders. Then my immediate response is "Humans aren't that way. Why is it different in this world? I want an explanation." IMO such a setup requires sexuality being a theme in the story.

As I've pointed out earlier:

• Does it have to be one of those two? Can it not be neither?
• Do you really think that a every person's sexual orientation is always immutable?

If (2) is communicated as a possible interpretation, it raises the worldbuilding issues I mentioned. You're saying human sexuality isn't that clear-cut - well, "everyone is bi" is pretty clear-cut, that's part of the problem.

Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2013 - 10:30 .

[Cheylus]

I'm glad there is a discussion like that here; apart from some people who only want the last word and are guarding their respective sanctuary, this is very interesting to read. Some comments, like the one made by Tarek here, makes me think about romances another way - a thought that is harder to get if you're in a stable and healthy relationship for seven years. I also learned what people mean by saying "playersexual", which is quite an interesting concept.

However, this is a topic about sexuality, good writing and characterization and it doesn't have to restrain itself to romances and sexual orientation. As I said here, for me Dragon Age is not a very well fleshed-out world. Romances and brothels apart (brothels being an unfortunate comical relief for the most part), sexuality as a whole subject (not only sexual orientation) is mostly absent in Thedas, where it is a major, interesting theme in Mass Effect, even in some important parts of the plot.

I have done every romances possible in recent BioWare games (from ME to ME3). It was still better in ME games in my opinion because you can be attracted to other people through the serie, you can "betray" your former relationship (Kaidan/Ashley from ME1, then LI in ME2) and, by discovering your feeling with a new species, you also discover their sexual "behaviour" (Tali and her fear of being sick, Garrus and his attitude about inter-species relationship, Liara, Morinth, Edi, etc.). 
Romances and sexuality in Dragon Age feel "isolated" from the core of the game, while romances in Mass Effect can evolve and span into the two or three games with a lot of distinct feelings and consequences. Mass Effect also had romances with characters who were not ordinary teammates (Kelly, Steve, Traynor).
Sexuality is a major question for asaris, krogans, quarians at least; it shapes the world. You can hear krogans talking about their infertility (/impotency); there are tankbreds; there is a bunch of asaris talking about their relationship with other species, etc. It isn't a question for dwarves, elves, humans or kossith; it simply isn't a rich subject in Dragon Age. And, two or maybe three romances in two games apart, no relationship feel related to the core and lore of the game, mainly because sexuality itself isn't very well developped, explained and detailed in this world.

For instance, romantic relationships are very well-written, in my opinion, in Dear Esther, Braid, Catherine or some Silent Hill - where the protagonist's sexuality and desires literally shapes the world he's in. I've yet to witness a relationship of this quality in a Dragon Age game. It was almost the case in Mass Effect, as I said before. 

With this in mind (hoping sexuality in DA won't be restricted to optional content almost only related to the main protagonist), I'm also very curious to see how my former LI in Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 will impact the world in DA:I; this will certainly be a part of my opinion about writing and characterization in Dragon Age in general. 

Modifié par Cheylus, 30 juin 2013 - 10:38 .

[Xilizhra]

If (2) is communicated as a possible interpretation, it raises the worldbuilding issues I mentioned. You're saying human sexuality isn't that clear-cut - well, "everyone is bi" is pretty clear-cut, that's part of the problem.

Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Again, I should point out that there were only two bisexual humans in the party in DA2.

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

They could've done it, too, since the Human Noble origin included the chance for a PC of either gender to have a homosexual encounter. And I think one of the Dwarven origins allowed for it too, but I never played them so I don't quote me on that.

OMG really?? Were you able to flirt with the son of Mom's friend?? I so need to start my male HN again o_o.

Maria Caliban wrote...

If the character is going to shut down the PC, I'd rather it be because of my PC's words and actions, not because I hit the wrong button at character creation.

Same.

someguy1231 wrote...

Just because we're working for gender equality in the real world doesn't mean we can't tell stories where it's still a serious problem. Besides, gender having an impact on the story need not imply that one gender is treated or is considered worse than the other.

Yeah, except that pretty much every woman who reads that will think the exact same thing because real society, and society in the vast majority of fiction, is MALE dominated. So sure, while it doesn't have to mean that, it would be assumed simply because of how things are.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

But did the game make this clear for you before you had to make the choice of your player character's gender?

I don't think that that matters for him (which is fine). He just likes the idea that the character he chose to create has some level of unique content.

In some cases, like in Vampire: Bloodlines, it doesn't really advertise that if you play a Tremere, that you'll get a unique player home (it can probably be inferred, for the Nosferatu, however).

Loves New Vegas, can make a Bloodlines reference offhand, and so many other goodies.

It's official you're my favorite.

[Thomas Andresen]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In some cases, like in Vampire: Bloodlines, it doesn't really advertise that if you play a Tremere, that you'll get a unique player home (it can probably be inferred, for the Nosferatu, however).

Well now. I've visited the Tremere Primogen's mansion, but I'd never even had imagined to hope for something like that. Granted, given the setting, there's no reason this would be revealed to anyone who didn't play Tremere, and I've only played the game as a Gangrel and a Malkavian.

Every bloodline had their unique tidbits, and even if it was far from obvious what those tidbits, the idea that they'd only included those tidbits for a few of the bloodlines seemed counter-intuitive.

[nightscrawl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) If in-world, "everyone is bi", that means that among a randomly selected group of people in this universe, all are attracted to both genders. Then my immediate response is "Humans aren't that way. Why is it different in this world? I want an explanation." IMO such a setup requires sexuality being a theme in the story.

Why is such bending of reality acceptable for things like magic, demons, dragons, and darkspawn, but not with sexuality?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In some cases, like in Vampire: Bloodlines, it doesn't really advertise that if you play a Tremere, that you'll get a unique player home (it can probably be inferred, for the Nosferatu, however).

Well now. I've visited the Tremere Primogen's mansion, but I'd never even had imagined to hope for something like that. Granted, given the setting, there's no reason this would be revealed to anyone who didn't play Tremere, and I've only played the game as a Gangrel and a Malkavian.

Every bloodline had their unique tidbits, and even if it was far from obvious what those tidbits, the idea that they'd only included those tidbits for a few of the bloodlines seemed counter-intuitive.

Heh I was soooo confused the first time I played Bloodlines *As a Malkavian* that I had to start over as a Tremere (My second favorite now).

Playing as a Malk on the second run was beyond great though.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

If (2) is communicated as a possible interpretation, it raises the worldbuilding issues I mentioned. You're saying human sexuality isn't that clear-cut - well, "everyone is bi" is pretty clear-cut, that's part of the problem.

Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Again, I should point out that there were only two bisexual humans in the party in DA2.

You ignore the fact that the non-humans are functionally humans with regard to their romance-related behaviour, even more so than the non-humans in ME. Do you recall the discussion in the ME forums regarding "should maleShep be able to couple with asari?" If the writers took "aliens aren't like humans" seriously, no he shouldn't. Still, he can. And Thedas' elves and dwarves are even more similar to humans than most of ME's species. In fact, we might be justified in calling them races and mean it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

If I'm being completely honest I was never really bothered by the whole "PCsexual" thing, well I mean maybe a little from a meta perspective but I've never been one to let that get in the way of my enjoyment.

So I guess I don't really have a horse in this race.

[Ieldra]

nightscrawl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) If in-world, "everyone is bi", that means that among a randomly selected group of people in this universe, all are attracted to both genders. Then my immediate response is "Humans aren't that way. Why is it different in this world? I want an explanation." IMO such a setup requires sexuality being a theme in the story.

Why is such bending of reality acceptable for things like magic, demons, dragons, and darkspawn, but not with sexuality?

Because those fanastic elements don't exist in the real world at all, while sex and sexual orientation very much do and Thedas' humans are painted as humans, not as aliens with a human shape.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2013 - 10:46 .

[Ravensword]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

If I'm being completely honest I was never really bothered by the whole "PCsexual" thing, well I mean maybe a little from a meta perspective but I've never been one to let that get in the way of my enjoyment.

So I guess I don't really have a horse in this race.

Pretty much this, except that I didn't really mind being able to romance whomever I wanted irrespective of the gender of the PC.

Modifié par Ravensword, 30 juin 2013 - 10:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If (2) is communicated as a possible interpretation, it raises the worldbuilding issues I mentioned. You're saying human sexuality isn't that clear-cut - well, "everyone is bi" is pretty clear-cut, that's part of the problem.

Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Again, I should point out that there were only two bisexual humans in the party in DA2.

You ignore the fact that the non-humans are functionally humans with regard to their romance-related behaviour, even more so than the non-humans in ME. Do you recall the discussion in the ME forums regarding "should maleShep be able to couple with asari?" If the writers took "aliens aren't like humans" seriously, no he shouldn't. Still, he can. And Thedas' elves and dwarves are even more similar to humans than most of ME's species. In fact, we might be justified in calling them races and mean it.

Of the elves we've seen thus far whose sexuality has actually been brought up, most have been clearly bisexual. Zevran, Merrill, Fenris, Jethann, Tallis, and possibly one other whom I'm forgetting (the elf you can flirt with in A Murder of Crows never mentions your gender, just that she doesn't sleep with humans); the trend is definitely that elves have a higher ratio of bisexuality than humans do. Also, nothing says that Maleshep was actually able to achieve penetration, to my knowledge, so I think we're fine.

Also, Zevran implies that bisexuality is literally more common in Antiva than in Ferelden, so take that for what you will.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 juin 2013 - 10:50 .

[nightscrawl]

Cheylus wrote...

I have done every romances possible in recent BioWare games (from ME to ME3). It was still better in ME games in my opinion because you can be attracted to other people through the serie, you can "betray" your former relationship (Kaidan/Ashley from ME1, then LI in ME2) and, by discovering your feeling with a new species, you also discover their sexual "behaviour" (Tali and her fear of being sick, Garrus and his attitude about inter-species relationship, Liara, Morinth, Edi, etc.). 

Romances and sexuality in Dragon Age feel "isolated" from the core of the game, while romances in Mass Effect can evolve and span into the two or three games with a lot of distinct feelings and consequences. Mass Effect also had romances with characters who were not ordinary teammates (Kelly, Steve, Traynor).

Sexuality is a major question for asaris, krogans, quarians at least; it shapes the world. You can hear krogans talking about their infertility (/impotency); there are tankbreds; there is a bunch of asaris talking about their relationship with other species, etc. It isn't a question for dwarves, elves, humans or kossith; it simply isn't a rich subject in Dragon Age. And, two or maybe three romances in two games apart, no relationship feel related to the core and lore of the game, mainly because sexuality itself isn't very well developped, explained and detailed in this world.

I think part of the reason for this is that, because Dragon Age is not a set series, and so does not revolve around a single person like Shepard, there will be fewer examples of the things you talked about. Romances will NOT carry over into other games because there will be a new protagonist. ME is more about the development and story of a single person, whereas DA is about the development of Thedas.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 30 juin 2013 - 10:51 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Except that a person(especially one who's previously only have had access to very limited palate) actually can suddenly discover foods that they've never tried before, and find out that OH MY GOSH THIS IS AMAZING!

Do you still think your analogy with food preferences is a good one? I do.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, Zevran implies that bisexuality is literally more common in Antiva than in Ferelden, so take that for what you will.

More common, yes. But "humans have diverse and distinct sexual orientations" is a species characteristic as far as I'm concerned. A setup where everyone is bi would feel as alien to me as one where nobody is.

[Ieldra]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Immutable, no. But at any given moment, it's as clearly a part of the person as their food preferences, which can also change over time, or between different playthroughs. In fact, changing an NPC's food preferences between playthroughs would raise similar dissonances.

Except that a person(especially one who's previously only have had access to very limited palate) actually can suddenly discover foods that they've never tried before, and find out that OH MY GOSH THIS IS AMAZING!

Do you still think your analogy with food preferences is a good one? I do.

Is it - because it is highly implausible that suddenly *everyone* discovers the same food as amazing, and I would suspect some hidden hand doing something behind the scenes if it happened. I would require an explanation.

Also, I was not speaking about character development, but about differences between different playthroughs as different AUs. If in one playthrough, Merrill likes tea and in another she does dislike it, then this results in a dissonance. That dissonance can be resolved in different ways, including mentally adapting to the concept of different playthroughs as AUs, but you can't pretend there isn't one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2013 - 11:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, Zevran implies that bisexuality is literally more common in Antiva than in Ferelden, so take that for what you will.

More common, yes. But "humans have diverse and distinct sexual orientations" is a species characteristic as far as I'm concerned. A setup where everyone is bi would feel as alien to me as one where nobody is.

But it's plainly obvious that not everyone is bi; Varric, Aveline and Sebastian in your own party, along with probably Carver (Bethany might go either way, I'm not sure, though probably just bicurious).

[Cheylus]

I think part of the reason for this is that, because Dragon Age is not a set series, and so does not revolve around a single person like Shepard, there will be fewer examples of the things you talked about. Romances will NOT carry over into other games because there will be a new protagonist. ME is more about the development and story of a single person, whereas DA is about the development of Thedas.

I agree, but there is still a lot of problematic sexual themes in ME that doesn't revolve directly around Shepard. On the other hand, no problematic sexual themes in Dragon Age.
Every unique caracteristics of ME universe is problematic: space travel, economy, language, biotics, technology, sexuality, racism...
Every unique caracteristics of Thedas is problematic: magic, dragons, demons, witches, the Fade, racism, traditions... but sexuality isn't.

I accept romance "mechanics" in ME because they're included in a bigger scheme where sexuality has an importance and where other people talk about it (a lot).

Modifié par Cheylus, 30 juin 2013 - 11:12 .

[Ravensword]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, Zevran implies that bisexuality is literally more common in Antiva than in Ferelden, so take that for what you will.

More common, yes. But "humans have diverse and distinct sexual orientations" is a species characteristic as far as I'm concerned. A setup where everyone is bi would feel as alien to me as one where nobody is.

But it's plainly obvious that not everyone is bi; Varric, Aveline and Sebastian in your own party, along with probably Carver (Bethany might go either way, I'm not sure, though probably just bicurious).

The complaint here will be that none of those characters you mentioned are romanceable.

Modifié par Ravensword, 30 juin 2013 - 11:09 .

[Xilizhra]

The complaint here will be that none of those characters you mentioned are romanceable.

And this matters why? If we're talking about setting integrity, "romanceable" is not a trait that matters to the universe.

[Ravensword]

Xilizhra wrote...

The complaint here will be that none of those characters you mentioned are romanceable.

And this matters why? If we're talking about setting integrity, "romanceable" is not a trait that matters to the universe.

It doesn't matter, but people will complain anyway.

Modifié par Ravensword, 30 juin 2013 - 11:16 .