1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Kallimachus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Untrue. I did offer an alternative solution: keep "everyone is available for anyone" but reinforce the idea that every playthrough is an AU by introducing more and more significant differences based on gender outside of romance content. This would make LIs more explicitly "playersexual", but adversely affect NPC consistency between playthroughs, which I find a totally acceptable sacrifice.

But if character consistency between playthroughs is a dogma, yes, then I admit that would find it more acceptable that the game limits the options for different sexual orientations (as long the number of options isn't zero) rather than giving me a world I can't believe in by making everyone bi.

Edit:
As for the minimum approach of having only one option per gender and sexual orientation, I'd likely be a tad disappointed, but I wouldn't have those immersion issues. 

Don't be disappointed. No need to be, it would never happen. At most the gay options would be reduced to 0 and all the others would be straight.

As for the other thing you suggested, it would be perhaps viable in a different reality than the one in which we live, but in this one it would be cost prohibitive, and arouse even more criticism about the amount of resources BioWare is spending on romances (especially gay ones). I can already see the forum posts and I'm covered with cold sweat.

[Ieldra]

Kallimachus wrote...
Don't be disappointed. No need to be, it would never happen. At most the gay options would be reduced to 0 and all the others would be straight.

Didn't happen with DAO. I was fine with that setup.
Also why do I get the impression that you want everyone to be canonically bi just to spite those who don't like it? Is it offensive now to have an opinion which places political correctness on a backseat?

[Ieldra]

Ziggeh wrote...
I empathise, because they're all valid perspectives, but they're impractical to consider in design. 

Perhaps. It's not as if I can't live with the way DA2 did this. It's just a lesser solution compared to the way DAO did it for me. That's why I'm here. I'm not dogmatic about this. If they can make romances in DAI that feel as real as the DAO romances to me, regardless of how they do it, I'll be ok with it. Maybe they can enhance other aspects to draw attention away from this issue.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 juillet 2013 - 03:08 .

[The Hierophant]

nightscrawl wrote...

I'm reminded of this exchange between Sebastian and Fenris:
Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

Because Hawke. XD

lol spoken like true stooges.

[Kallimachus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...
Don't be disappointed. No need to be, it would never happen. At most the gay options would be reduced to 0 and all the others would be straight.

Didn't happen with DAO. I was fine with that setup.
Also why do I get the impression that you want everyone to be canonically bi just to spite those who don't like it? Is it offensive now to have an opinion which places political correctness on a backseat?

I'm sorry? Was there an exclusively same sex LI that I missed in DAO? There were two exclusive different sex romances and 2 bisexual romances (and they were bisexual because the characters defined themselves as such). You were fine with it, because you were offered a choice while others were not.

I don't want everyone to be canonically bi. In fact, as I said previously numerous times, in DA2 only Isabela is canonically bi. In DAO Zevran and Leliana were bi. Anders states he is pansexual, and Sebastian is effectively asexual. Alistair and Morrigan are effectively straight, Merril and Fenris have no defined sexuality (they are certainly NOT bisexual). I'm fine with that, so your impression is obviously wrong.

I don't know where you get to "political correctness". My arguments had nothing to do with it. They had everything to do with feeling included and represented in a game I like, which you feel I shouldn't be - or at least not to the amount you should. So this has more to do with "privelege" than "political correctness", and yes, that is offensive.

[Ziggeh]

Kallimachus wrote...
 Merril and Fenris have no defined sexuality (they are certainly NOT bisexual)

Really? I wasn't paying all that much attention, but what do you base that on?

[Thomas Andresen]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...
 Merril and Fenris have no defined sexuality (they are certainly NOT bisexual)

Really? I wasn't paying all that much attention, but what do you base that on?

The fact that sexuality is irrelevant to their personality, would be my guess.

[Kallimachus]

On the fact that they never say or do anything throughout the game that could be even remotely construed of them being bisexual.

The only way you can come to a (wrong) conclusion that the are, is through metagaming.

[Jonata]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...
 Merril and Fenris have no defined sexuality (they are certainly NOT bisexual)

Really? I wasn't paying all that much attention, but what do you base that on?

I'm not Kallimachus, but I support his opinion: they never say that they've been with both women and men in their past. They have no defined bisexuality, they just change their sexuality according to what the player selected at the beginning of the game. It's like gameplay-oriented customizable sexuality.

EDIT: oh, there's already the answer. Still, I support this point of view.

Modifié par Jonata, 02 juillet 2013 - 03:28 .

[Stalker]

People are still complaining because they can't romance that one fictional character with their own fictional character? Gosh, grow up. This is not a matter of equality, homophobia or any kind of politically incorrect behavior from any fan or BioWare itself. You are just plain butthurt.
After reading through this thread, I would honestly advise BioWare to stop giving in so much for their fanbase.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 02 juillet 2013 - 03:44 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Mr Massakka wrote...

After reading through this thread, I would honestly advise BioWare to stop giving in so much for their fanbase.

And what would that, effectively, constitute, in your opinion?

[syllogi]

Kallimachus wrote...

I don't want everyone to be canonically bi. In fact, as I said previously numerous times, in DA2 only Isabela is canonically bi. In DAO Zevran and Leliana were bi. Anders states he is pansexual, and Sebastian is effectively asexual. Alistair and Morrigan are effectively straight, Merril and Fenris have no defined sexuality (they are certainly NOT bisexual). I'm fine with that, so your impression is obviously wrong.

Agreed with the above, although I would say that since Fenris and Isabela can hook up with no interference from Hawke, he is at least Isabela-sexual.  

Merrill (if not romanced by Hawke) and Varric (if we're not counting Bianca), in my view, are the only two party members in DA2 whom we met who do not have a defined sexuality.  And in my opinion, that's okay.  In real life, there are going to be people we meet who do not explicitly define their sexuality to everyone they meet, and that's their business.  Even when flirted with (Merrill with Carver, and Varric with Hawke), these two characters don't feel the need to explain why they aren't jumping at the chance to bone the person flirting with them, and we aren't owed an explanation.

I do think that defining romance dialogue by gender is okay, if we're not missing out on content because of it, and if it's well balanced.  There's nothing wrong with characters having a different kind of relationship based on the gender of the player character.  My issue would be with forcing the issue, even with characters who are not romanced, so that those who don't feel comfortable not knowing *exactly* where each and every party member falls on the Kinsey scale are properly satisfied.

When I'm at work, I don't talk about my personal life much, unless it's about my kid.  People tend to draw conclusions about my sexuality from that, but I am under no obligation to confirm or deny their assumptions, or to clarify my sexual orientation, to make them more comfortable.  That's just me, but I don't expect others (even characters in a video game) are obligated to disclose personal information unless it's appropriate and relevant.

[Stalker]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

After reading through this thread, I would honestly advise BioWare to stop giving in so much for their fanbase.

And what would that, effectively, constitute, in your opinion?

Maybe then less characters would be weird bisexuals who were forcibly changed just for the sex fantasies of every player...

[Kallimachus]

Mr Massakka wrote...
You are just plain butthurt over ridiculous minorities.

And that little piece of hate-filled loveliness is why none of what you say deserves consideration.

[Ziggeh]

Kallimachus wrote...

On the fact that they never say or do anything throughout the game that could be even remotely construed of them being bisexual.

The only way you can come to a (wrong) conclusion that the are, is through metagaming.

You can learn what their sexuality includes, not what it excludes. 

You can't conclude that they are bisexual, but what you are saying is that you can conclude they are definitely not. Those aren't synonymous.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 02 juillet 2013 - 03:48 .

[Cheylus]

What we already know on the topic of romances, from D. Gaider. It might give some answers here and there:
- "I can safely say that romance will have no greater and no lesser place than in any of our recent titles." (source)
- "Once again-- the romances are *not* "all bisexual". While some people don't like subjective sexuality, being aware of the fact some of your love interests could romance someone of the same gender in another game takes a back seat to fairness and fun gameplay. As I said before, if we have a sufficient number of romances, a spread of set sexualities would actually be my preference... but that's not always going to be the case, as the game's focus is not on romance content even if threads on the BSN often seem to be." (source)
- "If all you'd wanted to discuss was the addition of romances which are homosexual-only, then you should have said so and left it at that. My response to this has always been that I would love to... provided there were resources enough for the spread to be fair. If not, then bisexual romances-- whether they are subjectively bisexual or not-- are the way to go." (source)

[Thomas Andresen]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Maybe then less characters would be weird bisexuals who were forcibly changed just for the sex fantasies of every player...

I thought as much. Goodbye.

[Thomas Andresen]

Ziggeh wrote...

You can learn what their sexuality includes, not what it excludes. 

Someone's sexuality doesn't include anything if it doesn't exist.

[Ziggeh]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Someone's sexuality doesn't include anything if it doesn't exist.

I take it you mean that which isn't presented doesn't exist (and not that they're fiction, which is a more complex conversation!)?

I'm not saying that it does, I'm saying that it can. There is no right or wrong way to utilise the information available to me.

edit: On reflection I'll concede that their may be wrong ways to use the information, but that this isn't one of them.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 02 juillet 2013 - 04:08 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Ziggeh wrote...

There is no right or wrong way to utilise the information available to me.

I can think of many real world examples of how untrue that statement is, but that would be derailing the topic.

[Ziggeh]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

I can think of many real world examples of how untrue that statement is, but that would be derailing the topic.

Yeah, I had to throw a caveat in there. That's a fairly blanket statement.

With a little more precision: It's entirely valid to include "meta" information from other gameplays in my reading of the text and it's equally valid not to.

And even if I don't, it's problematic to say that "not straight" definitely equals gay and "not gay" definitely equals straight.

[Abraham_uk]

I am quite simply indifferent to bisexual characters.
Nice to that we gamers have options.

Why is this even an issue?
Why?

Unless the bisexual/homosexual characters are portrayed in a very offensive stereotypical manner, then it becomes an issue. Dragon Age 2 characters did not fit any bisexual/homosexual stereotypes.

Though you could complain that Zevran from Dragon Age Origins is an offensive Medeterian Europe bisexual stereotype.

[Kallimachus]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

On the fact that they never say or do anything throughout the game that could be even remotely construed of them being bisexual.

The only way you can come to a (wrong) conclusion that the are, is through metagaming.

You can learn what their sexuality includes, not what it excludes. 

You can't conclude that they are bisexual, but what you are saying is that you can conclude they are definitely not. Those aren't synonymous.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Perhaps I misspoke. What I meant to say was that they were not bisexual, only in the sense that their sexuality was not defined. They are neither homosexual nor heterosexual in that sense as well.

[Kallimachus]

Ziggeh wrote...
With a little more precision: It's entirely valid to include "meta" information from other gameplays in my reading of the text and it's equally valid not to.

You can do whatever you want, and obviously do, but a literary analysis of a text (and I maintain that each playthrough is a text unto itself, containing a whole complete narrative) cannot take into account anything extraneous to it.

Modifié par Kallimachus, 02 juillet 2013 - 06:56 .