1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Guns]

Don't they say "I'm born gay" and then they want every character to be bisexual? Silly homosexuals, you're contradicting yourselves.

[Sister Goldring]

philippe willaume wrote...

Since I believe that if romance there is, we should have hetero and ****** version of it. The romance-able companions being player-sexual is mighty fine with me.

since i am not sure that there is any stigmatization of sexual preference in the place of Thedas we have visited, i am not sure that it is worth have a player based reaction to the said relationship.
However there is probably ground for comments on relationship with elves or mages.

For me it is much more immersion breaking to have Templars not being bothered with my mages companion/me being a mage than knowing that Fenris would be batting for the other team if was playing a character of the opposite sex to the one i am playing now.

phil

This 100% and very well said Phil.  

[AlanC9]

Guns wrote...

Don't they say "I'm born gay" and then they want every character to be bisexual? Silly homosexuals, you're contradicting yourselves.

Would a bisexual be able to say that without offending your sense of... whatever's got your panties in a twist?

[RosaAquafire]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I'm not picking on you or how you feel so much as using this thought as a springboard to point out something that just occurred to me about this debate in general.  Why is it that when characters in games talk about past same sex encounters they have had they are often considered as advertising themselves as bi or gay?  When hetero characters do this they are just considered to be talking about their past.  I mean obviously on some level it's an advertisement because it's a way of explicitly telling the player that they are a potential same sex LI.  This is just one of the unfortunate downsides of a romance mechanic existing at all.  Romance options are pretty irrelevant if I don't know they exist.  

I guess I just don't get why a character explicitly telling the player they are gay or bi by way of describing past encounters is any more an advertisement than when a straight character does it.  It seems a pretty natural thing to bring up to a close friend and especially when it's a major formative part of their character arc - Zevran, Leliana, Anders, etc.  I don't think my gay coworker is advertising his gayness when he mentions his partner anymore than I think my straight coworkers are advertising their heterosexuality when they say "husband" or "wife." 

I have no problem with people talking about their past relationships, straight or gay. What I have a problem with is Zevran saying "I like men and I like women, is that okay with you?" Whereas Alistair is just like I think you're hot! and you're like sweet! and he's like awesome! He didn't carefully ask whether or not it was okay with me that he was straight. He didn't say "I like women and I don't like men, what are your feelings on that." He didn't advertise being straight, he just made his interest clear.

Taking about past relationships, either with the same sex or the opposite sex is fine. Better than that, it's great! Backstory is awesome. Who doesn't love backstory. What I don't love is how Alistair and Morrigan didn't tell me that they were heterosexual, but Leliana and Zevran told me that they were bi. None of the companions in DA2 told me their sexualities at all. I could infer it from their actions, but none of them ever said "by the way, this is my sexuality," because speaking as a bisexual person, the only time I have EVER done that is when I came out of the closet.

[Kallimachus]

Guns wrote...

Don't they say "I'm born gay" and then they want every character to be bisexual? Silly homosexuals, you're contradicting yourselves.

Let me explain it to you slowly, so that even you can understand: characters - they are not born. They are written...

[kumquats]

Personally, BW should take the next step and let RNG deside in the character creation, which sexuality the main protagonist has.
I would love that feature.

[Ziggeh]

daaaav wrote...
The point is that they are precluded from being characterised or involved with any plot line or backstory that would define their sexualities. There have been numerous examples in this thread of characteristics and plotlines that would be difficult to apply to characters like Merril and Fenris, but can be used with characters like Anders and Isabella.

Granted, but that in itself doesn't make them weaker characters. It makes them potentially weaker, but there are plenty of other elements to explore, even plenty of elements of sexuality that aren't dependant on preference.

[philippe willaume]

Guns wrote...

Don't they say "I'm born gay" and then they want every character to be bisexual? Silly homosexuals, you're contradicting yourselves.

Since i am a  slighty overweight, happily married, almost 48 straight dude and given that i can see the point of resource ecconomy in having romancancable companion being availiable for the character, regardless of the gender, Does the silly apply to guys and girls in the same situation as me none the less ?

phil

PS please do not take that as a vindictive semi-smart assed comment, it mainly for my personnal edification.

Modifié par philippe willaume, 03 juillet 2013 - 09:25 .

[philippe willaume]

kumquats wrote...

Personally, BW should take the next step and let RNG deside in the character creation, which sexuality the main protagonist has.
I would love that feature.

in a given culture that has societal values on sexual pratice it would make sense to have such a feature. I am not sure that I  see the point of having it a DA based game, where there is no stigma on same sex relationship.

i'd rather see the dev time used to give us a more complex rivalry/friendship love/loath system

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 03 juillet 2013 - 09:32 .

[Kallimachus]

kumquats wrote...

Personally, BW should take the next step and let RNG deside in the character creation, which sexuality the main protagonist has.
I would love that feature.

You are welcome to go through this lecture to see what David Gaider thinks of your proposal (and so its chances of being in the game).

[Plaintiff]

kumquats wrote...

Personally, BW should take the next step and let RNG deside in the character creation, which sexuality the main protagonist has.
I would love that feature.

They should also randomly generate your character's gender, appearance and class, and you shouldn't be allowed to even see it before you're shoved right into gameplay.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 juillet 2013 - 09:53 .

[kumquats]

I will watch it later. Thank you for the link.
My idea comes original more from Blade Runner the Game.

Is Ray McCoy a replicant?

"Whether McCoy is a replicant or not is entirely up to you, the player. Hints are given that suggest he is, while there are also hints that contradict this notion. Is he human, or is he a replicant - or is he a human who happens to be on the reps' side (a sympathizer)? You decide.

Reportedly, there is a way to be sure: at the end, in the stolen moon bus, you see the original copy of a picture that had both McCoy and the other replicants on it. If you're on the picture, you ARE a replicant. If you're not, well, then you were tricked."

Who else is a replicant in the game?

The replicant leader, Clovis, is always a replicant.
Spencer Gregorian is always human.
Bullet Bob usually turns out to be human, but can actually be identified as a replicant as well. This can partially be a result of not calibrating your V-K properly but mainly indicates what a flaky character he is. If the V-K test shows him to be a replicant, then you are only doing your job if you retire him…

The others, like Lucy, Gordo, Izo, Sadik and Dektora, may or may not be replicants, depending on your game. This is randomly determined when you start a new game.

This makes every Blade Runner playthrough, quite unique and interesting.

[Kallimachus]

kumquats wrote...

I will watch it later. Thank you for the link.
My idea comes original more from Blade Runner the Game.

Is Ray McCoy a replicant?

"Whether McCoy is a replicant or not is entirely up to you, the player. Hints are given that suggest he is, while there are also hints that contradict this notion. Is he human, or is he a replicant - or is he a human who happens to be on the reps' side (a sympathizer)? You decide.

Reportedly, there is a way to be sure: at the end, in the stolen moon bus, you see the original copy of a picture that had both McCoy and the other replicants on it. If you're on the picture, you ARE a replicant. If you're not, well, then you were tricked."

Who else is a replicant in the game?

The replicant leader, Clovis, is always a replicant.
Spencer Gregorian is always human.
Bullet Bob usually turns out to be human, but can actually be identified as a replicant as well. This can partially be a result of not calibrating your V-K properly but mainly indicates what a flaky character he is. If the V-K test shows him to be a replicant, then you are only doing your job if you retire him…

The others, like Lucy, Gordo, Izo, Sadik and Dektora, may or may not be replicants, depending on your game. This is randomly determined when you start a new game.

This makes every Blade Runner playthrough, quite unique and interesting.

I don't undersand... you want characters' sexual orientation in the game to be random?

[Ziggeh]

kumquats wrote...

My idea comes original more from Blade Runner the Game.

Is Ray McCoy a replicant?

"Whether McCoy is a replicant or not is entirely up to you, the player. Hints are given that suggest he is, while there are also hints that contradict this notion. Is he human, or is he a replicant - or is he a human who happens to be on the reps' side (a sympathizer)? You decide.

"You can take it any way you want, just don't take it for a test drive in the fourth sector."

Modifié par Ziggeh, 03 juillet 2013 - 10:39 .

[LarryDavid]

RosaAquafire wrote...
I have no problem with people talking about their past relationships, straight or gay. What I have a problem with is Zevran saying "I like men and I like women, is that okay with you?" Whereas Alistair is just like I think you're hot! and you're like sweet! and he's like awesome! He didn't carefully ask whether or not it was okay with me that he was straight. He didn't say "I like women and I don't like men, what are your feelings on that." He didn't advertise being straight, he just made his interest clear.

Taking about past relationships, either with the same sex or the opposite sex is fine. Better than that, it's great! Backstory is awesome. Who doesn't love backstory. What I don't love is how Alistair and Morrigan didn't tell me that they were heterosexual, but Leliana and Zevran told me that they were bi. None of the companions in DA2 told me their sexualities at all. I could infer it from their actions, but none of them ever said "by the way, this is my sexuality," because speaking as a bisexual person, the only time I have EVER done that is when I came out of the closet.

About 95% of all people are straight, so it natural to assume that if someone of the opposite sex shows intrest he or she is straight. This perfectly valid assumption leads to the observed asymmetry and as such, (a) if you have a problem dating someone who is straight, it is you who should inquire after his sexual preferences and ( if you date someone who assumes you are straight, it is you who should state that it is otherwise. I don't care about people's sexuality, but I can't say that I would be where I'm now if my wife was Bi.

[kumquats]

Kallimachus wrote...

I don't undersand... you want characters' sexual orientation in the game to be random?

Well no, but people asked for a more realistic approach to sexual orientation.
They want BW to take away choices from them for more realism.
People are born gay, it's not a choice.
So don't let the player make that choice for the protagonist, like we could do in the other games.

I think people ask for more realism, when it is convenient for them. But they will open many angry threads on the BSN, if they would play DA:I and 10 hours into the game, they realize, that their character is gay.

[LarryDavid]

kumquats wrote...
I think people ask for more realism, when it is convenient for them. But they will open many angry threads on the BSN, if they would play DA:I and 10 hours into the game, they realize, that their character is gay.

Nobody will realize their character is gay. People who rollplay a character that is gay don't need 10 hours to realize that.
The rest of the players will realize only that the game does not allow their character to exist in a (for most) fundamental way. And that will be the reason angry threads will be opened. Let's hope we never find out.

[Ziggeh]

kumquats wrote...

Well no, but people asked for a more realistic approach to sexual orientation.
They want BW to take away choices from them for more realism.
People are born gay, it's not a choice.
So don't let the player make that choice for the protagonist, like we could do in the other games.

Except that what they're saying is that they only want to be able to impact the world through the character, so they're comfortable making decisions about the character but not the world.

So for example, when selecting an Origin story in DA:O affected where Duncan would appear, they would see that as reducing the integrity of the setting.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 03 juillet 2013 - 11:58 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

kumquats wrote...

Personally, BW should take the next step and let RNG deside in the character creation, which sexuality the main protagonist has.
I would love that feature.

Yeah, it'd be awesome!
Man, imagine how hard the devs would be laughing when all the negative press and the numerous refund demands come in.
Err, wait... 

[Fetunche]

People keep whining on about realism in their fantasy games, what is real for this world is not necessarily true for Thedas. I quite like the idea of randomly generated PC, in real life we have no choice about our race, gender, sexuality and background, they should also add class to that as mages are born not made.

[Ziggeh]

Fetunche wrote...

People keep whining on about realism in their fantasy games, what is real for this world is not necessarily true for Thedas.

Realism, or rather verisimilitude, is vital for fantasy. DA presents human characters, and so they need to maintain the illusion of humanity or they invite the loss of suspension of disbelief.

For some, the need for modern human sexuality to be statistically represented within a minute non random sample will cause this issue.

However the problem with using it as an argument is that this illusion is based on an array of interconnected elements, and any one of them could cause an individual to question their credulity but very few elements will cause everyone to. "This isn't believable to me" does not equal "This isn't believable".

I think it's worth mentioning, because it could be true for many, in the same way I believe preferences should be, but people do have a tendency to present it as an objective position.

[Il Divo]

Kallimachus wrote...

No.

Well, that's not my problem. What I said is exactly how DA2 operates. Player sexual romances or no romances.  As I said, half step above forced.

Now that is just a silly thing to say. It cannot appear more than once, otherwise it is just repetitious, and that's just bad writing. And as you yourself say, that exchangege took place, and was effective. Which strengthen my point. And since the writers themselves say they were not worried about it, why would you claim that they are?

Did Zevran's character become repetitive because he's a sex maniac? Likewise with Isabela? Or Oghren for enjoying booze + women? I'm inclined to say no.

I mean, maybe for you the answer to you is yes to all these things, but then I'm inclined to say you wouldn't be able to tolerate Bioware characters period.

Except that she was never unveiled as a lesbian. I never realized she was supposed to be gay until after the game, when I read it online.

You might want to review Shepard's interaction with Traynor while playin chess. It doesn't matter whether you read online or not. I didn't know Traynor was a lesbian, that is my point. Then I hit on her and she awkwardly said no, expressing a preference for women. Memorable character interaction. Not possible if Traynor is bisexual.

You may not have asked, but that's the only pertinent thing - this thread is about "good writing" and "characterization". My argument is that with the resources BioWare would expend on characters that are solely same sex LIs (if any) it would not be possible to create memorable and fully fleshed characters.

Bioware has had absolutely no problems creating memorable and fully fleshed npcs who were straight, gay, or bisexual up until this point. I don't see where you're pulling this from.

 
What you want is to have fully fleshed characters sd LIs for yourself, and scraps for others.

No, you simply need to pull your head out of your behind. I've said no such thing and illustrated quite the opposite in my post to hazegurl. It's not your place to tell me what I do or don't want from my games. I'm willing to accept less heterosexual romances in exchange for defined characters.

The other, simpler solution is that if you really want everyone to be able to romance both genders, then actually identify them as bisexual. Then we don't have to worry about these fool companions adapting their sexuality to the PC. Everyone wins.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:34 .

[nightscrawl]

kumquats wrote...

Well no, but people asked for a more realistic approach to sexual orientation.
They want BW to take away choices from them for more realism.
People are born gay, it's not a choice.
So don't let the player make that choice for the protagonist, like we could do in the other games.

I think people ask for more realism, when it is convenient for them. But they will open many angry threads on the BSN, if they would play DA:I and 10 hours into the game, they realize, that their character is gay.

I agree with this in principle, but not in practice. In real life we also can't choose our facial features. In Thedas one can't choose to be born a mage, yet players pick their class. So, either we get to choose things about ourselves, or we go for full realism and don't get to choose ANYTHING.

I will say though, random sexuality for the companions might be interesting. However, I can foresee it forcing a lot of reloads, or otherwise general player rage. If DA2 had had this, I attempted to flirt with Fenris and he either ignored it or shot me down, I would have started over, and kept starting over until I got the play where I was able to romance him.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:41 .

[Il Divo]

Kallimachus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I've *repeatedly* said I would accept fewer options for me as long it wasn't zero options in order to maintain immersion. That you insist on accusing me of this bullsh*t is evidence enough that you don't understand my position.

It's very easy to say you're willing to sacrifice something you know would never be sacrificed.

There is nothing wrong with my understanding.

You know, it's also very easy to sacrifice something you don't mind sacrificing or have grown bored with. Companion customization, for one. Multiple heterosexual romance options, for another.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:52 .

[Darth Death]

kumquats wrote...

People are born gay, it's not a choice.

Nope. People aren't born gay, it's a choice... A choice some people don't want to take responsibility for.