1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Abraham_uk]

What I personally would like to see is virtually impossible to implement.

Realistic romantic interactions that impact the plot.


Do you have any idea how difficult that is to do?
I don't think any video game has come close to achieving what I would like to see.


What I'm asking is as challenging as asking NASA to land a man/woman on Mars.
It could happen sometime in the near future, but it won't be a piece of cake.

[Hazegurl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
You might want to review Shepard's interaction with Traynor while playin chess. It doesn't matter whether you read online or not. I didn't know Traynor was a lesbian, that is my point. Then I hit on her and she awkwardly said no, expressing a preference for women. Memorable character interaction. Not possible if Traynor is bisexual.

It's only "memorable" because meeting any videogame character who isn't "straight by assumed default" is extremely rare.

The fact that Traynor is "memorable" only by virtue of her sexuality just highlights the fact that society, and thus media, treats homosexuals like some alien beast. By comparison, the heterosexual characters get many memorable moments that have nothing to do with their sexuality.

This just goes to show that making characters of a set sexuality doesn't make them better characterized at all, it just means that the characters with alternate sexualities get that facet of their characters emphasized to the exclusion of any other traits. Relying on Traynor's sexuality to create "memorable moments" not good characterization in the least, it is in fact incredibly lazy and reductive.

Right, the only time Traynor became memorable for me outside of her being a rare lesbian character was int he Citadel DLC and her chess game with the Asari along with the toothbrush thing while Shep was sneaking on the Normandy. These were Traynors best moments imo and neither had anything to do with her sexuality.

[Il Divo]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Guess what.

It is entirely possible to have that kind of interaction with a character who isn't romance-able by either gender.

"Remember when I said I find EDI's voice pleasing?"

^Foreshadowing intended to indicate her preference for women, without openly stating "Hey, I'm a lesbian". This leads to many players/Shepards missing her subtle implication about her sexual preferences, leading to an awkward scenario of "we have different tastes", delivered in an extremely amusing context.

How does this work with a Shepard who has the ability to romance Traynor?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

when they suddenly start exhibiting sexual tendencies contrary to all past evidence

What does this even mean, guy.

[Abraham_uk]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Traynor isn't memorable? This is so subjective that it seems impossible to form anything but a personal argument off of it. I love Traynor and it has nothing to do with her sexuality. She is smart and funny and probably my favorite human character. I'll agree she isn't as deep or complex as any number of Bioware characters I can think of, but to be honest, none of the ME characters are that deep, complex, or unique. I'd consider her interest in synthetics more noteworthy as a character trait than her interest in women personally. The game makes a much bigger deal of that anyway.

I never said she wasn't, but since the entire argument against all-inclusive romances is that it leads to "shallower characters", the obvious implication is that Traynor would somehow be a less interesting and a less well-written character if she was sexually available to both genders.

I never argued it made characters shallower.  I argued it *can* break my feeling of immersion when their sexuality seems 100% playersexual or when they suddenly start exhibiting sexual tendencies contrary to all past evidence and the PC has 0 options to ask them about it or express surprise. 

I don't go around with a badge that says "I'm heterosexual".
Most women are surprised when they find this out.

Most homosexual people (even the ones comfortably out of the closet) don't go around with a badge that says "I'm homosexual".
I am always surprised when a homosexual tells me this.

What I'm trying to say that even though sexuality is a significant trait, most people don't tend to embody any preconcieved notions of sexuality. So unless someone tells you that they are a certain way inclined, you'll never know.


You do raise a fair point about the player character having no options to express surprise.

[Plaintiff]

It's a good thing we have Morocco Mole to lay down the law on literary merit.

What would we ever do without him?

[Plaintiff]

Il Divo wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Guess what.

It is entirely possible to have that kind of interaction with a character who isn't romance-able by either gender.

"Remember when I said I find EDI's voice pleasing?"

^Foreshadowing intended to indicate her preference for women, without openly stating "Hey, I'm a lesbian". This leads to many players/Shepards missing her subtle implication about her sexual preferences, leading to an awkward scenario of "we have different tastes", delivered in an extremely amusing context.

How does this work with a Shepard who has the ability to romance Traynor?

Why does it need to work? Why does it need to be in the game at all?

Practically everyone aboard the Normandy expresses an attraction to EDI at some point. I don't see why Traynor would stand out.

[Il Divo]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's only "memorable" because meeting any videogame character who isn't "straight by assumed default" is extremely rare.

No, it's not. Stop attempting to force your half-assed assumptions on me.

The fact that Traynor is "memorable" only by virtue of her sexuality just highlights the fact that society, and thus media, treats homosexuals like some alien beast. By comparison, the heterosexual characters get many memorable moments that have nothing to do with their sexuality.

Really? Apparently I had no other memorable moments with Traynor? I seem to recall several amusing stories involving an extremely expensive toothbrush, which has a practical application in ME3 Citadel when infiltrating the Normandy.

Out of curiosity, if I pointed out the sex scene in ME1 with Ashley as a memorable moment, does that mean that she had no memorable moments which dealt with other topics? This is your assinine logic.

This just goes to show that making characters of a set sexuality doesn't make them better characterized at all, it just means that the characters with alternate sexualities get that facet of their characters emphasized to the exclusion of any other traits. Relying on Traynor's sexuality to create "memorable moments" not good characterization in the least, it is in fact incredibly lazy and reductive.

See above. I pointed out one instance of a memorable encoutner with Traynor, one which dealt with sexuality. The point was itself to show how sexuality can help define a character, which if you actually read the thread was what your comrades asked for. Now, I provide an example of such, and suddenly it's: "Oh, look how lazy Bioware is! Alternate sexualities are being typecast!"

I recommend  you stop foaming at the mouth and actually take the time to consider possibilities which don't all deal with players hating homosexuals. Traynor's encounter on the Normandy is one such example of a memorable encounter. It is not by necessity the only one.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:21 .

[Plaintiff]

Il Divo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's only "memorable" because meeting any videogame character who isn't "straight by assumed default" is extremely rare.

No, it's not. Stop attempting to force your half-assed assumptions on me.

The fact that Traynor is "memorable" only by virtue of her sexuality just highlights the fact that society, and thus media, treats homosexuals like some alien beast. By comparison, the heterosexual characters get many memorable moments that have nothing to do with their sexuality.

Really? Apparently I had no other memorable moments with Traynor? I seem to recall several amusing stories involving an extremely expensive toothbrush, which has a practical application in ME3 Citadel when infiltrating the Normandy.

Out of curiosity, if I pointed out the sex scene in ME1 with Ashley as a memorable moment, does that mean that she had no memorable moments which dealt with other topics? This is your assinine logic.

This just goes to show that making characters of a set sexuality doesn't make them better characterized at all, it just means that the characters with alternate sexualities get that facet of their characters emphasized to the exclusion of any other traits. Relying on Traynor's sexuality to create "memorable moments" not good characterization in the least, it is in fact incredibly lazy and reductive.

See above. I pointed out one instance of a memorable encoutner with Traynor, one which dealt with sexuality. The point was itself to show how sexuality can help define a character, which if you actually read the thread was what your comrades asked for. Now, I provide an example of such, and suddenly it's: "Oh, look how lazy Bioware is! Alternate sexualities are being typecast!"

I recommend  you stop foaming at the mouth and actually take the time to consider possibilities which don't all deal with players hating homosexuals. Traynor's encounter on the Normandy is one such example of a memorable encounter. It is not by necessity the only one.

If she has plenty of memorable moments, then the loss of a single one won't be missed.

[Iakus]

syllogi wrote...

As a female gamer who was really hoping for a human female same sex LI in ME3, I liked Traynor as an NPC, but HATED her romance.  It was a terrible disappointment to find out that her romance scene was so incredibly cringeworthy.  I really have to question it when people say they like the way the same sex romances were done in ME3...what was so great about the cheesy, sleezy scene that female Shepards had with Traynor?  I do think she was perfectly nice in every other aspect of her character, but it's pretty insulting when I hear people tell me that her romance was "done right"...it felt embarassing to even watch it on YouTube.  

Personally, I don't want to play Bioware romances at all, if they're going to be like the Traynor romance.  So I really question the people who hold that one up as an example of "done right"...is it right because it's segregated, and you've never tried it, and you don't care that it's terrible?

But what was being tallked about here is Traynor turning down maleShep.  I agree that the shower scene was pretty cringeworthy.  But then it would have been cringeworthy regardless of which Shepard joined her.

ME3 was only an example of "done right" in that it provides a mix of options.  Not that the most was made of those options.  If there was an equal spread of romances done well, there'd be no cause for anyone to complain (not that it wouldn't happen anyway).  And in fact, an incentive to try out new characters.

[syllogi]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Also, I don't understand why it's not natural and plausible for Traynor to turn down a dudeShep's advances in game. Isn't this what a lesbian in RL would do with a real dude? Should it be impossible for Shepard to be obtuse or even insensitive where sexuality is involved?  Shepard can certainly be an obtuse or insensitive git where other species are involved. 

How's this relevant? The question is "Why does having a fixed sexuality of any kind make a character 'better'?"

It makes them more believable for me which helps me with immersion.

And I wasn't even addressing Traynor turning down dudeshep in the context that this somehow makes her character vastly superior.  I was more wondering why her capacity to turn down dudeshep detracts from her at all or would in any way cause problems. Multiple people apparently like that she does this and it adds to the consistency and believability of the character for them. 

Do you understand that when the major selling point of a homosexual romance is that it somehow caters to heterosexual players (who like that they can be turned down, for whatever reason), that it's not actually a good thing?

[Thomas Andresen]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Sexuality is very complicated, and believe it or not is a character trait.

The fact that all of your potential love interests in Dragon Age 2 are potentially into both men and women is significant.

Not in the context of the world in which the games are written. It might've been significant if the games were written to take place in this world, but that's not a good thing.

Il Divo wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Guess what.

It is entirely possible to have that kind of interaction with a character who isn't romance-able by either gender.

"Remember when I said I find EDI's voice pleasing?"

^Foreshadowing intended to indicate her preference for women, without openly stating "Hey, I'm a lesbian". This leads to many players/Shepards missing her subtle implication about her sexual preferences, leading to an awkward scenario of "we have different tastes", delivered in an extremely amusing context.

How does this work with a Shepard who has the ability to romance Traynor?

Does this piece of interaction between Traynor and maleShep preclude the possibility for Traynor to reject femShep?

[Thomas Andresen]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Do you understand that when the major selling point of a homosexual romance is that it somehow caters to heterosexual players (who like that they can be turned down, for whatever reason), that it's not actually a good thing?

How is one line of completely plausible in character dialog catering to heterosexual audiences?  This also assumes that everyone who is heterosexual likes that line and everyone who is homesexual doesn't, which I'm willing to bet a large amount of money isn't true.   Also is that the "major selling point" of Traynor or her romance?  It's just a line multiple people seem to like.  This logic seems to suggest that if heterosexual players like something about the romance it's somehow not "authentic" or something. 

syllogi's point is that the major argument heterosexual people have for gay romances over bi romances is that "it adds to the character interaction if the character can reject me because of my gender".

[Plaintiff]

Evidence like what?

"I'm sorry, I'm afraid I have to ask to see your License to Scissor."

[Thomas Andresen]

I still don't see any compelling argument for why it should be explicit, or implicit for that matter, that a character romance-able by both PC gender must be bisexual.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

A) I'm a chick

It means when my previous perception of their sexuality is challenged.  I form an opinion on their sexuality based on my processing of "evidence" about it.  Why is it such a big deal for me or my PC to express surprise or want to be able to ask about it when my perception is broken?  I'm not saying my perception of them wasn't wrong.  

But sis. I-guy, you-guy, she-guy, he-guy, my-guy, I-sis, you-sis, Jesus, Yeezus, Beysus.

That sounds awfully heterosexist to me. We all know that heteronormativity means people default to "straight" unless presented with evidence otherwise. It's why people were pressed like paninis when Kaidan was made available to male Shepards. It seems to me that it's an unreasonable burden to ask developers to anticipate and accommodate your perceptions of what traits constitute "queer" and "heterosexual."

And I say that without touching the fact that that's just unfortunate as hell.

[Il Divo]

Hazegurl wrote...

I'm not selling the concept short. Everyone knows that repetitive writing sucks.

That's exactly what you're doing. If your quota for repetitive writing is that they mention character X is sexually inexperienced twice, then yes your idea fails. Everyone has a different level before they consider writing repetitive, hence my questions: Isabele'a and Zevran's love of sex comes up quite a bit. Was that repetitive? Jack in Mass Effect uses the F-word quite a bit. Was that repetitive? Repetitive writing does suck, what's not clear is why you expect me to have the same quota as you. None of those reached the point of growing tiresome for me, though others might disagree.

I know you brought up Traynor and Bethany and neither character is fleshed out by you simply knowing their sexuality. If anything it seems as though both characters are given crap development and tossed by the wayside. Btw, Fenris does awkwardly brush her off, multiple times and guess what? He's also been amused by the idea of Isabella coming on to him. You are basically asking for things that have already been implemented into the game. lol!

On its own? Absolutely not. It would be like saying Sten is fleshed out because he loves cookies. That alone doesn't flesh him out, it adds to a sea of traits which any respective character possesses.

I know what it means, even though I don't think any character is "playersexual" however, you are essentially asking for the same thing. If you, the player, can convince Ash to sleep with you then I don't see how that is any different than her being a "playersexual" character. It pretty much suggests that the PC is so special she can convince Ash to sleep with her.

A playersexual character is someone who sleeps with the PC "just because". They don't have a defined sexuality, their sexuality changes as per authorial intent. They exist within alternate universes. "Oh, here Merrill is straight, here Merrill is bi".

A character influenced by the PC into a certain direction is not player-sexual. It's like how Ashley has a set starting point on how she feels about aliens and humanity's position in the galaxy. In ME1, you have the ability to influence this via dialogue. This would be much crappier if Ashley's beliefs regarding aliens and the Council changed every playthrough to always reflect how Shepard feels. That is what playersexual is the equivalent of. Characters magically have opinion X, Sexuality Y, or Trait Z merely because the PC takes that position. Characters slowly changing their position in response to PC influence is quite different than merely being player-sexual and goes beyond the PC being so special merely by being the PC.

No she doesn't, she still sleeps with a female or male by virtue of them being the main character in your scenario. I don't see how it makes her better defined according to your own criteria of having a set sexuality. Maybe it's just me but "straight" people don't sleep with people of the same sex unless they are bi-curious, bisexual, or just simply gay.  I dont buy that porno fantasy crap of two women having sex cause they just want to even though they are super duper straight. :innocent: 

No, she doesn't. She sleeps with the main character because the main character chooses x, y, or z dialogue in order to slowly push her in a certain direction. Choose Ashley on Virmire, express sympathy when she starts railing against Cerberus, etc, these things could be used to slowly show Ashley you care about her. Hell, KotOR lets you slowly make Bastila open to a Jedi-relationship, though admittedly that one was heterosexual.  

No porno fantasy involved, at least none any worse than Bioware has already done.

I don't see what else they can explore to make you happy. Unless BioWare decides to pull a total "Crying Game" move on ya. Now that I would pay to see for a lot of posters here.

Make all characters who can be LIs openly bisexual seems the obvious choice. This nullifies player-sexual romances and still allows everyone to romance all characters, as asked for.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .