1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Plaintiff wrote...

If she has plenty of memorable moments, then the loss of a single one won't be missed.

I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:50 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Evidence like what?

"I'm sorry, I'm afraid I have to ask to see your License to Scissor."

Usually, them telling me about past relationships they've had and/or making comments about the attrativeness of people. 

Why the hell would this be expected for any character but Isabella?

[David Gaider]

I see we're on this topic again. I  haven't read through the thread, but since it always goes through the same opinions anyhow everytime this topic comes up, I'll repost my thoughts from here.

"Less interesting to watch is some of the commentary on Anders’ sexuality. Quite frequently on our forums someone will come along with a rant on how they hated how “all the followers in DA2 were bisexual". Sometimes you’ll even get someone who counters that by saying, no, they weren’t bisexual… the same-gender romance options were gay and the opposite-gender romance options were straight, depending on your player character. Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh… which I don’t really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn’t like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for doing so. This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you’re keen to) and thus inexcusable.

Now, there are three things about this that bother me. One, the double standard. I suppose in the future we should just suck up the fact that men hitting on men causes a lot more squick than women hitting on women… because nobody brings up Isabela hitting on female players without being flirted with first, only Anders. And those are the only two romance characters who do it. We talked about it and thought, “Why not? Seems fair." The reactions have sometimes been pretty funny, but overall probably not worth the trouble.

Two, that the perception of sexuality evidently dictates the reality. If a male character comments that a woman is attractive, for instance, he must immediately say that he also finds men attractive or he is Straight Forever and any future attraction to men is a ret-con of his character. He has become someone else completely, like he’s had a personality transplant. Indeed, some of the comments make me wonder if this is how these people would respond to the same situation in real life… some friend of theirs who they always thought was straight tells them they slept with someone of the same gender and they go, “What? You’re like some completely different person! How can you be both straight and gay, it makes no sense!" Probably.

Which leads me to my third thing: while I get that some people might not like the discovery that those followers can potentially romance either gender (something you can really only discover on subsequent playthroughs or by reading about it), a lot of the things people post on the subject is… awkward. “It makes the characters inconsistent." Meaning that… bisexuality itself is indicative of inconsistency? Only people who can’t make up their minds are bisexual? “It’s unrealistic that everyone is bisexual!" Which ‘everyone’? Everyone in Thedas? Or are we talking four people in your party of folks who already exceptional in a large number of ways, two of which have no sexual past or preferences that they even discuss with you? “It just made them seem like they were all sexually available to me!" So… was it having three romance options for any PC gender, just like in Origins, that threw you off? Or does the idea of potentially sleeping with either gender just make them seem inherently wanton to you?

I mean, come on. I’m sure not everyone actually feels this way, or means to sound as if they do, but much of the commentary on the topic seems to say way more about the commenter than the topic.

While some people evidently didn’t like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening. I remember the
conversation when I first saw Anders’ planned appearance in the expansion.

"Huh. He looks a little gay."

"I don’t think you can use that as an adjective."

"I can if I mean homosexual."

"Really? Is it the hair? The earring?"

"I’m not sure, but he pings like an aircraft carrier."

We laughed about it, and while it didn’t really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow it was definitely on my mind when I wrote him. I found it a little odd when people suggested that him commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn’t avoided. It wasn’t like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that’s why I didn’t consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

And, yes, authorial intention doesn’t count for much. People perceive what they will, and perhaps we should have gone further to establish that part of those characters more explicitly. I’m just not sure what lengths I’d want to go to just to make some people more comfortable with the idea… because, as I suggested above, I’m not sure all the reasons they’re expressing for that discomfort are actually genuine.

Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I’d be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit… but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out."



That's really all I have to say on the topic. Fans can and will speculate, but the decision regarding what we're doing with DAI followers was made a long time ago and our stance on the importance of inclusiveness has not changed.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:03 .

[philippe willaume]

Plaintiff wrote...

iakus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The fact that Traynor is "memorable" only by virtue of her sexuality just highlights the fact that society treats homosexuals like some alien beast. By comparison, the heterosexual characters get many memorable moments that have nothing to do with their sexuality.

The moment was memorable.  Traynor herself was an awesome character anyway.  Smart, slightly nerdy, someone I could see being friends with even without romancing her. 

And a better analyst than the Shadow Broker.

That's not better.

If Traynor has many memorable moments regardless of her sexuality, then "set sexuality makes memorable moments" is a bad argument, because it's not needed. Why do we need "memorable moments" based on sexuality, when they can be based on practically anything else?

hello 
@Plaintiff & iakus

I think you are missing each other points. you both are correct.
yes sometime player-sexual leads to moment that does not really makes sense or that seems to comming out of the blue.
And yes trainor shuting down male Sheperd was a great bit of story and roleplaying.
It was even great at a metagaming level. Ie you might be the hero but you ain't gona get that girl. 
the point they are making is that defined sexual orientation gives chance to have a different outcome than the given player sexual result "take me know captain, take me hard" to quote Zoe in Firefly.


and yes if that is the only thing that sticks out a charatere then it is a poor charaterisation. (and no i don't  think that very comment does apply to Traynor)

phil

[Thomas Andresen]

Il Divo wrote...

I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments.

Phrased differently, if she has so many memorable moments, would you notice if that single one was never there in the first place?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Usually, them telling me about past relationships they've had and/or making comments about the attrativeness of people. 

Attraction isn't mutually exclusive.

And if they never disclose attraction to anyone, then what? Do you usually assume asexuality?

Plaintiff wrote...

Evidence like what?

"I'm sorry, I'm afraid I have to ask to see your License to Scissor."

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Hey all what's going on in thi----

Oh ****.

I'm going to go sit in the "No opinion" corner before someone accuses me of something.

[Plaintiff]

Il Divo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If she has plenty of memorable moments, then the loss of a single one won't be missed.

I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments.

You can't miss something that never existed.

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.

[syllogi]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Evidence like what?

"I'm sorry, I'm afraid I have to ask to see your License to Scissor."

Usually, them telling me about past relationships they've had and/or making comments about the attrativeness of people. 

What if they haven't had any past relationships?  What if they comment on attractiveness but are still gay/straight, despite being able to recognize the beauty of someone they don't want to sleep with?

The problem with trying to "pin down" the sexual orientation of every single character is that it's not natural.  It leads to stereotyping (for example: Isabela and Zevran being "obviously" bisexual) and bad writing (for example: Sam Traynor's romance).  It's aimed at making a certain group more comfortable, while disenfranchising another.

Obviously, if a character is written as someone who talks about their past relationships, that's fine.  But not everyone we meet in real life is going to do that.  Some straight women are going to be able to find another female voice attractive without suddenly turning gay.  Some gay people suddenly discover that they have fallen in love with someone of the opposite sex years after coming out.  Real life is crazy like that.  Trying to demand rigidly upheld sexual orientations isn't inherently better for the sake of reassuring straight players that they won't get any gay on them.

Modifié par syllogi, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:57 .

[Ziggeh]

It's a bit depressing that the devs can cut and paste from different topics and appear to be responding directly to the thread.

[Il Divo]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Does this piece of interaction between Traynor and maleShep preclude the possibility for Traynor to reject femShep?

Well, let me put it in a different perspective:

The amusement for me in that scene was that I, as Shepard, was able to make the assumption that Traynor would be interested in me, the great and all powerful Commander Shepard, by virtue of my badassery. Instead, she used a seemingly trivial detail (EDI's voice), which I had not picked up on, to indicate that I/my character had made some very bad assumptions about her potential sexual preferences. It was a more interesting/amusing way of learning about a character, while simultaneously reminding me that my Shepard is not in fact a sexual God.

[Il Divo]

Plaintiff wrote...

You can't miss something that never existed.

Then by that position, you won't miss out on Bioware writing exclusively heterosexual romances again, eh? 

I can't miss something which never existed, but as I have little interest in player-sexual romances, I'll roll with moments I enjoyed like Traynor's instead. My goal is to tell Bioware what I want them to add to the game to make my experience more enjoyable.  

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.

Fine, I'll rephrase for you, Chief:

I subscribe to the you can never have enough enjoyable, memorable moments belief. If it's memorable and enjoyable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable, enjoyable moments.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:01 .

[Il Divo]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.

I wouldn't really call it a heavy focus.

"I like girls instead of guys and I am mentioning my attraction to that character in this way"

"Okay"

No more of a focus than what would be done with a straight person

Pretty much this. It's like saying that because I recall Sten loving cookies that it was given a heavy focus in the game.

[Plaintiff]

Il Divo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You can't miss something that never existed.

Then by that position, you won't miss out on Bioware writing exclusively heterosexual romances again, eh? 

Homosexual romances are a feature that exists and has existed in the past. I certainly do notice their absence, and their absence is why I didn't purchase ME1 or 2.

[Thomas Andresen]

Il Divo wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Does this piece of interaction between Traynor and maleShep preclude the possibility for Traynor to reject femShep?

Well, let me put it in a different perspective:

The amusement for me in that scene was that I, as Shepard, was able to make the assumption that Traynor would be interested in me, the great and all powerful Commander Shepard, by virtue of my badassery. Instead, she used a seemingly trivial detail (EDI's voice), which I had not picked up on, to indicate that I/my character had made some very bad assumptions about her potential sexual preferences. It was a more interesting/amusing way of learning about a character, while simultaneously reminding me that my Shepard is not in fact a sexual God.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.

I wouldn't really call it a heavy focus.

"I like girls instead of guys and I am mentioning my attraction to that character in this way"

"Okay"

No more of a focus than what would be done with a straight person

I didn't say that Bioware placed such a focus on Traynor specifically, but they do do it. Zevran's sexuality apparently required very elaborate justification, and even then, he had to state unequivocally that he preferred women, because we wouldn't want him to be too gay.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:13 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David Gaider wrote...

*Gaider snip*

I knew I liked you.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some bisexuals prefer one sex over the other. So I'm not really seeing your point.

The fact that his bisexuality needed to be justified or explained at all is a problem. Given how his sexuality is explained, it's a super problem.

"I only like dick because I was raised by hookers and then killers, and even then, I still don't like dick that much."

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:16 .

[Il Divo]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments.

Phrased differently, if she has so many memorable moments, would you notice if that single one was never there in the first place?

Apologies, I missed this.

On its own? Probably not. Of course, that's also going to depend on how many of these moments there are and their overall quality.

A character with 7 memorable moments likely won't be as weakened by the loss of one as a character with 3 memorable moments. But as someone who does enjoy Bioware characters, but is not a fan of player-sexual romances, I'm far more interested in adding more to what I enjoy more.