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On Good Writing and How it Applies to Characterization and Sexuality


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#1351
syllogi

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Some bisexuals prefer one sex over the other. So I'm not really seeing your point.


Speaking as a filthy bisexual, it makes me incredibly uncomfortable when people ask me which sex I prefer.  I am a complex person, and just like heterosexuals, I don't want to bone every person who I find attractive.   I also know I'm not the only bi person who hates being asked to "choose" in some way, everytime our sexuality comes up.  Zevran's "casual" reminder that he likes women more than men seemed a bit too much like reassurance that he wasn't "too gay" to be romanced by female characters.

#1352
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey all what's going on in thi----

Oh ****.

I'm going to go sit in the "No opinion" corner before someone accuses me of something.

Pretty much my reaction to most of these threads.

#1353
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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I'm not really seeing a problem with that either. As tired as I am of Bioware reusing the depraved bisexual archetype twice now. Things like that can have an impact on your sexuality

#1354
philippe willaume

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Plaintiff wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If she has plenty of memorable moments, then the loss of a single one won't be missed.


I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments. Posted Image

You can't miss something that never existed.

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.


well may be you get the wrong end of the stick then,
Traynor rejecting dude-shep is not memorable because Traynor is batting for the
other team.
It is because the hero is getting shutdow.Traynor could have said “I am touched but I love bob the mechanics" it would have been the same”.

Or  if you prefer It would be a nice touch if your Warden had romanced Lelianna, and she was present in DA:I that she shutdown the DA:I main protagonist. now  your warden may or may be male and that does not really colour the role playing experience.

I really think Il Divo is only saying that provided the game can support it would be nice if each companion are sexuality and relationship should be recalculated before each play through so you have to find out who you can
romance. I don’t necessarily agrees with the concept but i like the idea of  barking up the wrong tree instead of player sexual automatic scoring.
It  would be good as well, if some romance where harder to develop than other.
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:36 .


#1355
Abraham_uk

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 A few things about this "bisexual" issue.

I can only really speak for myself.


I am to the best of my knowledge heterosexual.
I have only ever hit on women.
I find women very attractive.

I am still a bit uncomfortable with dating a man and I have rulled it out.
There are some attractive men out there. Maybe, just maybe some guy can convince me...

If I dated a man, would that be inconsistant?
Would that be a retcon of my personality?
Does that make me a completly different person?

Or have I embraced a side of my sexuality I never even knew existed?
Have I always been attracted to both men and women, but have rulled out men because of my religion?

Am I frightened of the idea of dating a man? I guess so.
Perhaps I am the one who needs to open his mind.
Kudos to anyone who made that leap of faith. I'm to scared to dip my toes into the water.

#1356
Straw Nihilist

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So many threads on LIs... wouldn't it be easier to just go pick up a girlfriend? Y'know, in that real life thing you hear so much about.

#1357
philippe willaume

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Morocco Mole wrote...

I'm not really seeing a problem with that either. As tired as I am of Bioware reusing the depraved bisexual archetype twice now. Things like that can have an impact on your sexuality


Does it ?
Do you need to shoot yourself in the foot to find out it is not a good idea?
phil

#1358
Thomas Andresen

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Billie Bones wrote...

So many threads on LIs... wouldn't it be easier to just go pick up a girlfriend? Y'know, in that real life thing you hear so much about.

Oh wow. I've never seen that reaction before.

#1359
Guest_Raga_*

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Abraham_uk wrote...
If I dated a man, would that be inconsistant?
Would that be a retcon of my personality?
Does that make me a completly different person?


It would in no way change your underlying character or make your sexuality any less valid.

I would find it strange however if all your friends and family who up to this point have only seen you dating women expressed 0 opinion or interest in your new relationship with a dude, and if you yourself spent 0 time considering what it means and/or why it might have happened. 

#1360
Plaintiff

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philippe willaume wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If she has plenty of memorable moments, then the loss of a single one won't be missed.


I subscribe to the you can never have enough memorable moments belief. If it's memorable, then it would in fact be missed. And as I dislike player-sexual romances, I think I'll go with more memorable moments. Posted Image

You can't miss something that never existed.

Something being memorable doesn't make it good. I find the heavy focus on the sexuality of non-straight characters borderline offensive.


well may be you get the wrong end of the stick then,
Traynor rejecting dude-shep is not memorable because Traynor is batting for the
other team.
It
is because the hero is getting shutdow.
Traynor
could have said “I am touched but I love bob the mechanics" it would have been
the same”.

Or
if you prefer It would be a nice touch if your Warden had romanced Lelianna, and
she was present in DA:I that she shutdown the DA:I main protagonist.
now
your warden may or may be male and that does not really colour the role playing
experience.

I
really think Il Divo is only saying that provided the game can support it would
be nice if each companion are sexuality and relationship should be
recalculated before each play through so you have to find out who you can
romance. I don’t necessarily agrees with the concept but i like the idea of
barking up the wrong tree instead of player sexual automatic
scoring.
It
would be good as well, if some romance where harder to develop than other.
Phil

Okay, so Traynor is memorable for basically being the only woman in the galaxy who will turn down Shepard's sexual advances. But she only turns him down because her character was written to be strictly lesbian (which is frankly still a problem, but for different reasons).

The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.

#1361
Abraham_uk

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Billie Bones wrote...

So many threads on LIs... wouldn't it be easier to just go pick up a girlfriend? Y'know, in that real life thing you hear so much about.


Not really.

Dating in video games is much, much easier.

Unless you're playing "Don't Be Nervous Talking To Girls."

#1362
Plaintiff

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Billie Bones wrote...

So many threads on LIs... wouldn't it be easier to just go pick up a girlfriend? Y'know, in that real life thing you hear so much about.

Yes, cultivating a relationship is much less work than playing a video game.

#1363
Ryzaki

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Plaintiff wrote...
The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.


God this.

Male Shepard did not need to have just about every female throwing her panties at him. I found that far far more aggravating immersion breaking and plain annoying than all bi LIs could ever be. I mean FFS the damn warrior monk who's sworn off relationships even gives a "I'd totally do you if I was younger." line! COME ON.

And renedouche needed to be rejected far more often too. Romancing aliens while badmouthing them constantly and touting human's as better made utter **** for sense.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:41 .


#1364
Hazegurl

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, the only time Traynor became memorable for me outside of her being a rare lesbian character was int he Citadel DLC and her chess game with the Asari along with the toothbrush thing while Shep was sneaking on the Normandy. These were Traynors best moments imo and neither had anything to do with her sexuality.


I thought Samantha was a pretty solid character (outside of the atrocious and embarrassing romance) but suffered from having a less content than Steve. She really should have had a Citadel meetup or two.


I like her too. She's the true shadow Broker in my book but I don't think there is anything deep or meaningful about her that made her a truly stand out or fleshed out character than any other and her romance did suck.  I know you can meet up with her and watch her play chess but I have no idea what the scene is like if you've romanced her.  I have a feeling its the same as not romancing her. lol!

#1365
Iakus

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David Gaider wrote...
Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh… which I don’t really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn’t like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for doing so. This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you’re keen to) and thus inexcusable.


Actually, it's as much as you get for handing Ketojen over to the Qunari to be killed.  Bit more than a kick in the head.  Just sayin' Posted Image

Now, there are three things about this that bother me. One, the double standard. I suppose in the future we should just suck up the fact that men hitting on men causes a lot more squick than women hitting on women… because nobody brings up Isabela hitting on female players without being flirted with first, only Anders. And those are the only two romance characters who do it. We talked about it and thought, “Why not? Seems fair." The reactions have sometimes been pretty funny, but overall probably not worth the trouble.


that goes to personality, not sexuality.  Isabela came across as a very 'friendly" person,even going back to DAO.  Her flirting with anyone she's not actively trying to kill is pretty much par for the course.  Anders, not so much.  If Anders in Awakening had been a shameless flirt to all Wardens or even to companions and NPCs, I doubt this would have been an issue.

Which leads me to my third thing: while I get that some people might not like the discovery that those followers can potentially romance either gender (something you can really only discover on subsequent playthroughs or by reading about it), a lot of the things people post on the subject is… awkward. “It makes the characters inconsistent." Meaning that… bisexuality itself is indicative of inconsistency? Only people who can’t make up their minds are bisexual? “It’s unrealistic that everyone is bisexual!" Which ‘everyone’? Everyone in Thedas? Or are we talking four people in your party of folks who already exceptional in a large number of ways, two of which have no sexual past or preferences that they even discuss with you? “It just made them seem like they were all sexually available to me!" So… was it having three romance options for any PC gender, just like in Origins, that threw you off? Or does the idea of potentially sleeping with either gender just make them seem inherently wanton to you?

I mean, come on. I’m sure not everyone actually feels this way, or means to sound as if they do, but much of the commentary on the topic seems to say way more about the commenter than the topic.


No offense, but this is treading dangerously close to setting up straw man arguments

And, yes, authorial intention doesn’t count for much. People perceive what they will, and perhaps we should have gone further to establish that part of those characters more explicitly. I’m just not sure what lengths I’d want to go to just to make some people more comfortable with the idea… because, as I suggested above, I’m not sure all the reasons they’re expressing for that discomfort are actually genuine.


And some of them are.  Please remember that.

Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I’d be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit… but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out."[/i]


Well, that's good.  I just wish so many people didn't take it into their heads this this is all about "Grr, gay romances bad.  Argh"

#1366
Ryzaki

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You get more rivalry for daring to be a mage and recruiting Fenris than you do for rejecting Anders.

And Fenris rivalry points in that scenario is not avoidable if you are a mage (outside of plain not recruiting him).You can only lessen it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:43 .


#1367
Guest_Raga_*

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Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.


God this.

Male Shepard did not need to have just about every female throwing her panties at him. I found that far far more aggravating immersion breaking and plain annoying than all bi LIs could ever be.


This, among other things.  I just want sexuality in the games in general to be more complex than "here are your 4 LIs for this game.  They will like you so long as you chose the flirt option.  That is all.  Carry on." 

#1368
Iakus

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 I just want sexuality in the games in general to be more complex than "here are your 4 LIs for this game.  They will like you so long as you chose the flirt option.  That is all.  Carry on." 


Very true

#1369
philippe willaume

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Plaintiff wrote...

Snip
Okay, so Traynor is memorable for basically being the only woman in the galaxy who will turn down Shepard's sexual advances. But she only turns him down because her character was written to be strictly lesbian (which is frankly still a problem, but for different reasons).

The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.


not only, she is memorable for the refiting the normandy,EDI quotes,the tooth brush, the chess and the techy/geeky she is. basically  she is a well made charatere.
IE I never got the shep-dude rejection and i still liked her character and found it memorable.
now with that thread i saw the dude shep dump and I found that it was a neat idea. 

As i mentioned before in this thread. I am in favor of protaginst sexual as is an economy of resources that can be used to develop the companions in othere domain. so i am defintly on your side of the argument

Now what Il divo said, in my opinion, was purely game related and from that angle it does make sense.

i don't see a problem with romancable charater having a set sexual orietation, (Morigan was strctly hetero) and avaleine was no avaliable at all. if the protagonist can try and fail all the better.

phil

#1370
Xilizhra

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Actually, it's as much as you get for handing Ketojen over to the Qunari to be killed. Bit more than a kick in the head. Just sayin'

Irrelevant, given how easily it's fixed. It says more about the bad scaling of the Ketojan moment.

that goes to personality, not sexuality. Isabela came across as a very 'friendly" person,even going back to DAO. Her flirting with anyone she's not actively trying to kill is pretty much par for the course. Anders, not so much. If Anders in Awakening had been a shameless flirt to all Wardens or even to companions and NPCs, I doubt this would have been an issue.

Ah, so those who fit into evident bisexual stereotypes are nonthreatening?

No offense, but this is treading dangerously close to setting up straw man arguments

Hardly. How?

And some of them are. Please remember that.

None of the reasons for discomfort are genuine, because discomfort is not a legitimate reaction. Being underwhelmed by not enough romance content is, and romances can be fleshed out further while remaining equal.

Well, that's good. I just wish so many people didn't take it into their heads this this is all about "Grr, gay romances bad. Argh"

More like "grr, gay romances don't matter."

#1371
Azaron Nightblade

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David
Gaider wrote...
[i]"Less
interesting to watch is some of the commentary on Anders’ sexuality. Quite frequently on our forums someone will come along with a rant on how they hated how “all the followers in DA2 were bisexual". Sometimes you’ll even get someone who counters that by saying, no, they weren’t bisexual… the same-gender romance options were gay and the opposite-gender romance options were straight, depending on your player character.
Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh… which I don’t really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn’t like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for
doing so.
This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you’re keen to) and thus inexcusable.



The only thing that ever "bothered" me about Anders' come on was pretty much me feeling bad and thinking "Oh man, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give you the wrong impression!" and then having to shoot him down and watch him get hurt.
Which in my opinion says something positive about the way he was written.

Abraham_uk
wrote...

I don't go around with a badge that says "I'm heterosexual". Most
women are surprised when they find this out.
Most homosexual people (even the ones comfortably out of the closet) don't go around with a badge that says "I'm homosexual".
I am always surprised when a homosexual tells me this.

What I'm trying to say that even though sexuality is a significant trait, most people don't tend to embody any preconcieved notions of sexuality. So
unless someone tells you that they are a certain way inclined, you'll never know.



You do raise a fair point about the player character having no options to express surprise.

Um, as much as I hate to say it - the whole "tv" stereotype of the gay man with the walk, the soft voice and the wristflicks actually IS based on reality.
I've had three colleagues throughout the years that fit completely into the stereotype - no, they didn't wear a badge but they didn't need to either.
I've also had a few colleagues that I never would've guessed if they hadn't actually mentioned their boyfriend at some point.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 03 juillet 2013 - 07:17 .


#1372
Hazegurl

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Il Divo wrote...

That's exactly what you're doing. If your quota for repetitive writing is that they mention character X is sexually inexperienced twice, then yes your idea fails. Everyone has a different level before they consider writing repetitive, hence my questions: Isabele'a and Zevran's love of sex comes up quite a bit. Was that repetitive? Jack in Mass Effect uses the F-word quite a bit. Was that repetitive? Repetitive writing does suck, what's not clear is why you expect me to have the same quota as you. None of those reached the point of growing tiresome for me, though others might disagree.


Having the same interaction but splicing in another character just to highlight each party member's sexuality is transparant as h*ll and yes repetitive especially since you then have to figure out where each of this dialouge goes and whether or not it makes sense to even put it in there. Perhaps it would work if the player had Bethnay, Isabella and Merrill in their party. Other than that it sounds repetitive and stupid. Mentioning two different characters in two different games does not prove your point. Actually, people have complained in this thread that Zevran and Isabella are bisexual stereotypes which means that the whole "I have sex with everybody" thing was probably redundant to a few people even though it was done in two different games.  Yes Jack using the F word a lot was repetitive, the girl had no freaking vocabulary. If you have to have your character running around cursing all the time it's probably because you have nothing else for them to say. Just look at people's complaints about Dante's dialouge in the DMC reboot.  It's a far cry from the intelligent and witty Dante we've had in the previous games. I don't care if you have the same quota as me. It's obvious that you don't consider it repetitive. I simply gave my opinion that disagreed with you.

On its own? Absolutely not. It would be like saying Sten is fleshed out because he loves cookies. That alone doesn't flesh him out, it adds to a sea of traits which any respective character possesses.


Then make such a stink over it? It's a small trait that quite frankly isn't even removed, just altered based on your own perception of what the character is or isn't.

A playersexual character is someone who sleeps with the PC "just because". They don't have a defined sexuality, their sexuality changes as per authorial intent. They exist within alternate universes. "Oh, here Merrill is straight, here Merrill is bi".


All of the LIs can be described in the exact same manner. Every PC comes with a package of LIs who are romanceable just because you are the PC. That does not mean you can "romance" them all in one game and in certain cases you can blow it completely with them. Who says Merrill is straight or bi? Just because YOU state that Merrill is straight here and bi there does not make it so. That is you adding your own labels to a character. Like I said before, there is a possiblity that the elves have no sexual orientation at all, DA could have different names and different meanings for their sexualities than you do. How do you know Merrill isn't pansexual or demisexual instead? Or perhaps you could role play her as being strictly straight but willing to be with FHawke because she has fallen for her specifically.

A character influenced by the PC into a certain direction is not player-sexual. It's like how Ashley has a set starting point on how she feels about aliens and humanity's position in the galaxy. In ME1, you have the ability to influence this via dialogue. This would be much crappier if Ashley's beliefs regarding aliens and the Council changed every playthrough to always reflect how Shepard feels.


I don't see how it's so different, in the end her views change to relfect the PC's opinions. Now if another squadmate like Garrus or Tali or Liara influenced her to change that would mean more to me, otherwise it's no different than the typical PC has to "fix" someone and put them on the "right" path. But then again I can't speak for Ash's changed opinions, I kill her off on Virmire.

That is what playersexual is the equivalent of. Characters magically have opinion X, Sexuality Y, or Trait Z merely because the PC takes that position. Characters slowly changing their position in response to PC influence is quite different than merely being player-sexual and goes beyond the PC being so special merely by being the PC.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, I don't don't see your request as anything different than what you are already complaining about.

No, she doesn't. She sleeps with the main character because the main character chooses x, y, or z dialogue in order to slowly push her in a certain direction.


No different than being a "playersexual" character in my(no really, your) book.

Make all characters who can be LIs openly bisexual seems the obvious choice. This nullifies player-sexual romances and still allows everyone to romance all characters, as asked for.


I like the "Crying Game" idea better.

#1373
Iakus

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Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so those who fit into evident bisexual stereotypes are nonthreatening?


What's a bisexual stereotype?   

Modifié par iakus, 03 juillet 2013 - 07:21 .


#1374
syllogi

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Xilizhra wrote...

Well, that's good. I just wish so many people didn't take it into their heads this this is all about "Grr, gay romances bad. Argh"

More like "grr, gay romances don't matter."


Or, "grr, I want credit for being a Good Ally™ by tolerating the presence of gays, but I want them separated and clearly defined and I want to be able to nod sagely as a token gay turns my awesomely heterosexual player character down!"

#1375
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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I'm not really sure why some of you think defining a person's sexuality as gay is a bad thing