1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so those who fit into evident bisexual stereotypes are nonthreatening?

What's a bisexual stereotype?   

Being highly flirtarious/promiscuous. You effectively said that because Anders wasn't openly sexual with everyone, his pass came as something actually damaging.

[Hazegurl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some bisexuals prefer one sex over the other. So I'm not really seeing your point.

The fact that his bisexuality needed to be justified or explained at all is a problem. Given how his sexuality is explained, it's a super problem.

"I only like dick because I was raised by hookers and then killers, and even then, I still don't like dick that much."

So this. I felt kind of iffy about romancing Zevran in my gay Cousland playthrough. He preferred women but was bisexual for career reasons and I'm sure he needed the Warden to like him to stay alive. Of course I got the sense that he began to fall for the Warden, especially when he refused to have sex with him and opened up about his first love etc but still, who wants to be told by a potential lover that they prefer the opposite gender to them. That's why I don't get ppl who wanted Anders to tell FHawke that Karl was his lover. Seriously, I wouldn't want to know that if I'm persuing a relationship with a man.

Guy: "Hey honey, I really like you but I need to tell you something. I prefer men over women and that guy I'm broken up over was my greatest love. Don't worry, I still find you attractive too."

[Abraham_uk]

This is a really complicated discussion.

There are a lot of nuanced opinions regarding this subject.
Whilst this is one of the most interesting recurring topics on the forums, 56 pages of reading would take forever.

My goodness. I have little patience to read all 56 pages of this thread.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.

God this.

Male Shepard did not need to have just about every female throwing her panties at him. I found that far far more aggravating immersion breaking and plain annoying than all bi LIs could ever be. I mean FFS the damn warrior monk who's sworn off relationships even gives a "I'd totally do you if I was younger." line! COME ON.

And renedouche needed to be rejected far more often too. Romancing aliens while badmouthing them constantly and touting human's as better made utter **** for sense.

Dedicated to Ryzaki:

Hey, if they can throw their panties at Bieber they might as well do it for Shep too. 

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so those who fit into evident bisexual stereotypes are nonthreatening?

What's a bisexual stereotype?   

Being highly flirtarious/promiscuous. You effectively said that because Anders wasn't openly sexual with everyone, his pass came as something actually damaging.

Wait, so Oghren is a bisexual stereotype? 

And does this mean Leliana isn't bisexual at all?  I found her open, but quite low key about it.

And I believe what I said was the reason why Isabela's blatant flirtation doesn't rile people up as much is because her personality, going back to her cameo in DAO established her as such.  Anders' sudden bizzare emotional neediness (to the point of earning renegade points for turning him down. I don't care how much or little it was that was just foolish to put in there) is very much ooc from what people knew of him in Awakening.  Not to mention any flirtatious dialogue he had was strictly towards and about females.

Yeah yeah, perceptions and all that.  I for one am glad that it's been acknowledged that such  a perception wasn't intended in Awakening.  But it's still there. 

[syllogi]

Hazegurl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some bisexuals prefer one sex over the other. So I'm not really seeing your point.

The fact that his bisexuality needed to be justified or explained at all is a problem. Given how his sexuality is explained, it's a super problem.

"I only like dick because I was raised by hookers and then killers, and even then, I still don't like dick that much."

So this. I felt kind of iffy about romancing Zevran in my gay Cousland playthrough. He preferred women but was bisexual for career reasons and I'm sure he needed the Warden to like him to stay alive. Of course I got the sense that he began to fall for the Warden, especially when he refused to have sex with him and opened up about his first love etc but still, who wants to be told by a potential lover that they prefer the opposite gender to them. That's why I don't get ppl who wanted Anders to tell FHawke that Karl was his lover. Seriously, I wouldn't want to know that if I'm persuing a relationship with a man.

Guy: "Hey honey, I really like you but I need to tell you something. I prefer men over women and that guy I'm broken up over was my greatest love. Don't worry, I still find you attractive too."

Yeah, see, there really wasn't any reason to qualify how much Anders preferred men over women (if, indeed he does), but I still would have liked to hear about Karl in my female Hawke's playthrough, even if the dialogue or circumstances of the conversation would have been different.

I'll be honest, I'm never thrilled when a male Bioware love interest tells my female player character about his past dead lover, and how much I remind him of her, but I also recognize that I still want to know about the character's past, even past relationships that my poor PC can't compete with, if it means getting to know that character better.

I think what bothers me about Anders not telling a female Hawke about Karl is that there is the suspicion that it was supposed by those writing the dialogue that Anders being open about his male lover would make him less appealing to female player characters.  Zevran had plenty of female fans who could handle knowing about his male lover.  And if it's really canon that Anders and Karl were just Good Friends in any female Hawke playthrough, then we're back to the fact that every single openly bisexual love interest so far has been a rogue who enjoys (or previously enjoyed) casual sex (Zevran, Leliana, and Isabela).  That does send a message to players about what kind of character is the "right" kind to be bisexual.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, so Oghren is a bisexual stereotype?

With both sexes, I thought was the obvious qualifier.

And does this mean Leliana isn't bisexual at all? I found her open, but quite low key about it.

What are you even talking about?

And I believe what I said was the reason why Isabela's blatant flirtation doesn't rile people up as much is because her personality, going back to her cameo in DAO established her as such. Anders' sudden bizzare emotional neediness (to the point of earning renegade points for turning him down. I don't care how much or little it was that was just foolish to put in there) is very much ooc from what people knew of him in Awakening. Not to mention any flirtatious dialogue he had was strictly towards and about females.

My heart would truly bleed for them... if I was actually attracted to men. I'm not, I went through the same thing they did with the flirtation and all, and I don't give a ****. I invite them to do the same.

[syllogi]

Filament wrote...

iakus wrote...


Wait, so Oghren is a bisexual stereotype? 

And does this mean Leliana isn't bisexual at all?  I found her open, but quite low key about it. 

No, Zevran is. Xilizhra was simplifying it a bit for ease of description I assume, but there is obvious nuance in the kind of flirtation and personality that fits the "bi stereotype," but it is certainly a thing that exists. Oghren is more the straight horndog stereotype.

And Leliana not fitting the stereotype doesn't mean she's not bisexual. That's the point.

Leliana gets overlooked, but she's a rogue who previously slept with both men and women solely in pursuit of getting secrets from them, which isn't that far from Zevran's backstory, which isn't that far from Isabela's outlook on sex.  She may have different stuff going on by the time the Warden meets her, but it can be inferred that she was previously bisexual purely because she was using her lovers, and sometimes even killing them.

[Hazegurl]

syllogi wrote...
 Zevran had plenty of female fans who could handle knowing about his male lover.  And if it's really canon that Anders and Karl were just Good Friends in any female Hawke playthrough, then we're back to the fact that every single openly bisexual love interest so far has been a rogue who enjoys (or previously enjoyed) casual sex (Zevran, Leliana, and Isabela).  That does send a message to players about what kind of character is the "right" kind to be bisexual.

I see your point and I agree that perhaps they should have went all out with Anders and just have him admit that Karl was his lover and someone special to him in the Fhawke playthrough. But I think one can suspect it in a FHawke playthrough it's just that Anders is keeping that info under wraps. Something I can't blame him for. Afterall, if he is attracted to a woman and wants to see if he can hit it off with her why mention something that could throw her off and possibly ruin the chance before it gets started? With MHawke, he's meeting a man he is attracted to and wants to gauge his reaction to knowing he had a male lover. imo, it makes a little more sense to give those details to a man than a woman.

With zevran, I think that the reason most female fans had no issues with his past male lover was that we were fed the "I'm not really gay or bi" lines.  He prefers women and had no choice but to go gay for his job. Wasn't it forced on him?  I think most straight female players with straight female PCs can understand that much better. If they have to avoid that type of pandering to straight players I can handle them omitting certain details depending on the PC's gender. Though it would be nice that after rejecting Anders and establishing a friendship the FHawke can learn that Karl was his lover.

[LinksOcarina]

Hazegurl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some bisexuals prefer one sex over the other. So I'm not really seeing your point.

The fact that his bisexuality needed to be justified or explained at all is a problem. Given how his sexuality is explained, it's a super problem.

"I only like dick because I was raised by hookers and then killers, and even then, I still don't like dick that much."

So this. I felt kind of iffy about romancing Zevran in my gay Cousland playthrough. He preferred women but was bisexual for career reasons and I'm sure he needed the Warden to like him to stay alive. Of course I got the sense that he began to fall for the Warden, especially when he refused to have sex with him and opened up about his first love etc but still, who wants to be told by a potential lover that they prefer the opposite gender to them. That's why I don't get ppl who wanted Anders to tell FHawke that Karl was his lover. Seriously, I wouldn't want to know that if I'm persuing a relationship with a man.

Guy: "Hey honey, I really like you but I need to tell you something. I prefer men over women and that guy I'm broken up over was my greatest love. Don't worry, I still find you attractive too."

If your bisexual, you have to do that sometimes. I know how guys and girls feel about that by first-hand experience. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Filament wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Leliana gets overlooked, but she's a rogue who previously slept with both men and women solely in pursuit of getting secrets from them, which isn't that far from Zevran's backstory, which isn't that far from Isabela's outlook on sex.  She may have different stuff going on by the time the Warden meets her, but it can be inferred that she was previously bisexual purely because she was using her lovers, and sometimes even killing them.

Ah, right, so she kind of fits the type too.

What was this about again? Some apparently only being comfortable with bisexual characters who don't break this "mold"? I guess that still makes sense.

Seems to be the usual problem. Some people seem to believe that all (romanceable) characters are heterosexual unless explicitly stated otherwise, and it breaks their immersion if things don't actually conform to this preconception. Then they complain by saying the characters are "inconsistent" because they aren't heteronormative by default. SSDD.

[Sylvianus]

Ziggeh wrote...

It's a bit depressing that the devs can cut and paste from different topics and appear to be responding directly to the thread.

Yeah. That seemed a bit disdainful from David Gaider who felt the need to post his opinion ( cut and paste )  without even reading the topic, obviously not interested by this thread and opinions except his, nor the debate with at the end of his post " that's all what I'll say on this topic ". That was quite classy coming from a Dev. That's his right after all. Personally, that didn't give me the will to even consider reading his post. Which I didn't to be honest, except the two first lines and the two last ones.

However I read each of your posts ( while I ignore totally some posters ) and... I'm quite impressed . You speak well. ( can't send a mp because of new rules on the bsn <_< ) . Your objectivity in this thread despite your point of view and your understanding of what has value to others give weight to your opinion. I won't say you convinced me, ( we do not wish the same thing after all ) but you managed to soften my position on the issue.

I must also admit that this thread ( they are all bi ) is better than any other I've read so far. Less drama, less emotional statements, less ridiculous hostility. Many good posts.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 juillet 2013 - 10:48 .

[CrimsonNephilim]

Just saying this now: Not posting this question/comment to be rude.

That being said, the arguments/debates over Romances in Bioware games never made sense to me. Bioware has always made the option of pursuing a Romance with a LI optional (as far as I can remember anyhow). Those who don't like the idea of Romance plots can avoid them all together as long as the proper dialogue choices are made (however, this does sometimes cause issues of figuring out certain things about the companion (past, etc)).

People who do like the Romance plots, and have a specific character in mind to Romance if the option is available, can pursue one if they so choose. Romances aren't forced on the player (unless you get Ninja-manced in which case, reload to a previous save and re-do the conversation that led into it). So, I genuinely don't understand the disagreements over Romances. It's just another facet of the story, and completely optional if a player doesn't like them. It even easier now if the Dialogue wheel from DA2 will be returning in DA: I.

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 03 juillet 2013 - 11:02 .

[Abraham_uk]

 I'm struggling to guage what people's position on sexuality is?


Is there a sizable group of gamers who are outright against any sexuality out of heterosexuality?
Is there a sizable group of gamers who are discomforted by the OPTION to have a homosexual romance?

Or is the issue with the actual representation of homosexual/bisexual characters in video games?
Is it a question of having more realistic dialogue (which is hard to do) for homosexual/bisexual romances.

Perhaps it's an issue to do with LGBT's being quite literally offended by the representation of homosexual/bisexual characters.

Are some gamers just not used to the idea that the person that they're attracted to is also into the same sex?
Are some gamers not used to the idea of homosexual exclusive love interests.
Are some gamers just annoyed that they couldn't romance Traynor as a man?

Are some gamers just struggling with the sudden decision to make Kaidan and Ashley bisexual without any surprise, forshadowing, buildup or any reaction?
______________________________________________________________________________________

Too Long; Didn't Read

Quite honestly I am confused. Really confused.
What is the issue here?
Could someone please spell it out in plain English?

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 03 juillet 2013 - 11:18 .

[CrimsonNephilim]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I'm struggling to guage what people's position on sexuality is?


Is there a sizable group of gamers who are outright against any sexuality out of heterosexuality?
Is there a sizable group of gamers who are discomforted by the OPTION to have a homosexual romance?

Or is the issue with the actual representation of homosexual/bisexual characters in video games?
Is it a question of having more realistic dialogue (which is hard to do) for homosexual/bisexual romances.

Perhaps it's an issue to do with LGBT's being quite literally offended by the representation of homosexual/bisexual characters.

Are some gamers just not used to the idea that the person that they're attracted to is also into the same sex?
Are some gamers not used to the idea of homosexual exclusive love interests.
Are some gamers just annoyed that they couldn't romance Traynor as a man?

Are some gamers just struggling with the sudden decision to make Kaidan and Ashley bisexual without any surprise, forshadowing, buildup or any reaction?
______________________________________________________________________________________

Too Long; Didn't Read

Quite honestly I am confused. Really confused.
What is the issue here?
Someone please spell it out in plain English?

Pretty much where I am on this subject and curious as to why people find it difficult to just avoid Romance plots/possibility of LI being into the same sex if it bugs them so much. I'll admit when I played DA2 and found out that all the LIs were Bi and that Kaidan was also made Bi in ME3, I had a short "WTF" moment, but not in a bad why. I was on the side of "Huh, ok. That's interesting. Whatever." and carried on with my game.

[daaaav]

Ziggeh wrote...

daaaav wrote...
The point is that they are precluded from being characterised or involved with any plot line or backstory that would define their sexualities. There have been numerous examples in this thread of characteristics and plotlines that would be difficult to apply to characters like Merril and Fenris, but can be used with characters like Anders and Isabella.

Granted, but that in itself doesn't make them weaker characters. It makes them potentially weaker, but there are plenty of other elements to explore, even plenty of elements of sexuality that aren't dependant on preference.

Oookay, so if we are interested in avoiding sterotying groups of people, doesn't this mean that DAI is likely to be filled with Merrill and Fenris style characters only? If the devs do want to include a more openly sexual / flirtatious (whatever you want to call it) character, then they must make them essentially bisexual...

The way DA2 did this was not a Panacea for avoiding stereotypes.

(And well done to David Gaider for not reading the damn thread and deciding that we must all be complaining about that whole Anders thing, which isn't an issue at all and hasn't been mentioned once in this thread.)

[Sutekh]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

It's a bit depressing that the devs can cut and paste from different topics and appear to be responding directly to the thread.

Yeah. That seemed a bit disdainful from David Gaider who felt the need to post his opinion ( cut and paste )  without even reading the topic, obviously not interested by this thread and opinions except his, nor the debate with at the end of his post " that's all what I'll say on this topic ". That was quite classy coming from a Dev. That's his right after all. Personally, that didn't give me the will to even consider reading his post. Which I didn't to be honest, except the two first lines and the two last ones.

What would you have him do? Repost his exact same opinion, only using different words? This topic has been brought up so many times already, and each time the same arguments are made on all sides. If his opinion hasn't changed, copy pasting seems fair to me. Saves times with the exact same result.

And you should read his post because, oddly enough, it summarizes this thread quite well, despite the copy pasting. Which is kind of sad, considering he admits not to have read it. We've been running in circles on this topic (and so many others) for... how many years now?

[Abraham_uk]

daaaav wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

daaaav wrote...
The point is that they are precluded from being characterised or involved with any plot line or backstory that would define their sexualities. There have been numerous examples in this thread of characteristics and plotlines that would be difficult to apply to characters like Merril and Fenris, but can be used with characters like Anders and Isabella.

Granted, but that in itself doesn't make them weaker characters. It makes them potentially weaker, but there are plenty of other elements to explore, even plenty of elements of sexuality that aren't dependant on preference.

Oookay, so if we are interested in avoiding sterotying groups of people, doesn't this mean that DAI is likely to be filled with Merrill and Fenris style characters only? If the devs do want to include a more openly sexual / flirtatious (whatever you want to call it) character, then they must make them essentially bisexual...

The way DA2 did this was not a Panacea for avoiding stereotypes.

(And well done to David Gaider for not reading the damn thread and deciding that we must all be complaining about that whole Anders thing, which isn't an issue at all and hasn't been mentioned once in this thread.)

I'm not sure, but I think Gaider copied and pasted it from a different thread where Anders was frequently mentioned.

[Abraham_uk]

David Gaider wrote...

I see we're on this topic again. I  haven't read through the thread, but since it always goes through the same opinions anyhow everytime this topic comes up, I'll repost my thoughts from here.

"Less interesting to watch is some of the commentary on Anders’ sexuality. Quite frequently on our forums someone will come along with a rant on how they hated how “all the followers in DA2 were bisexual". Sometimes you’ll even get someone who counters that by saying, no, they weren’t bisexual… the same-gender romance options were gay and the opposite-gender romance options were straight, depending on your player character. Most of the ire seems to center on the fact that Anders not only flirts with you if you pick the nice response options after his plot (how ghastly of him) but that the only way to turn him down is perceived as being harsh… which I don’t really think it is, but the bigger crime is evidently that he doesn’t like it and you get 10 whole Rivalry points for doing so. This is, as near as I can tell, the equivalent of kicking him in the head (despite the fact that you can get Anders to max Friendship in Act 1 alone about twice over, if you’re keen to) and thus inexcusable.

Now, there are three things about this that bother me. One, the double standard. I suppose in the future we should just suck up the fact that men hitting on men causes a lot more squick than women hitting on women… because nobody brings up Isabela hitting on female players without being flirted with first, only Anders. And those are the only two romance characters who do it. We talked about it and thought, “Why not? Seems fair." The reactions have sometimes been pretty funny, but overall probably not worth the trouble.

Two, that the perception of sexuality evidently dictates the reality. If a male character comments that a woman is attractive, for instance, he must immediately say that he also finds men attractive or he is Straight Forever and any future attraction to men is a ret-con of his character. He has become someone else completely, like he’s had a personality transplant. Indeed, some of the comments make me wonder if this is how these people would respond to the same situation in real life… some friend of theirs who they always thought was straight tells them they slept with someone of the same gender and they go, “What? You’re like some completely different person! How can you be both straight and gay, it makes no sense!" Probably.

Which leads me to my third thing: while I get that some people might not like the discovery that those followers can potentially romance either gender (something you can really only discover on subsequent playthroughs or by reading about it), a lot of the things people post on the subject is… awkward. “It makes the characters inconsistent." Meaning that… bisexuality itself is indicative of inconsistency? Only people who can’t make up their minds are bisexual? “It’s unrealistic that everyone is bisexual!" Which ‘everyone’? Everyone in Thedas? Or are we talking four people in your party of folks who already exceptional in a large number of ways, two of which have no sexual past or preferences that they even discuss with you? “It just made them seem like they were all sexually available to me!" So… was it having three romance options for any PC gender, just like in Origins, that threw you off? Or does the idea of potentially sleeping with either gender just make them seem inherently wanton to you?

I mean, come on. I’m sure not everyone actually feels this way, or means to sound as if they do, but much of the commentary on the topic seems to say way more about the commenter than the topic.

While some people evidently didn’t like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening. I remember the
conversation when I first saw Anders’ planned appearance in the expansion.

"Huh. He looks a little gay."

"I don’t think you can use that as an adjective."

"I can if I mean homosexual."

"Really? Is it the hair? The earring?"

"I’m not sure, but he pings like an aircraft carrier."

We laughed about it, and while it didn’t really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow it was definitely on my mind when I wrote him. I found it a little odd when people suggested that him commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn’t avoided. It wasn’t like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that’s why I didn’t consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

And, yes, authorial intention doesn’t count for much. People perceive what they will, and perhaps we should have gone further to establish that part of those characters more explicitly. I’m just not sure what lengths I’d want to go to just to make some people more comfortable with the idea… because, as I suggested above, I’m not sure all the reasons they’re expressing for that discomfort are actually genuine.

Personally, were we given the resources to have enough romances that we could have an even spread of sexualities across the party I’d be more than happy to have those sexualities be explicit… but if the idea otherwise is to restrict those interested in gay romances from having the same number of options as others, then no. Fairness and fun gameplay win out."



That's really all I have to say on the topic. Fans can and will speculate, but the decision regarding what we're doing with DAI followers was made a long time ago and our stance on the importance of inclusiveness has not changed.

Here is Gaider's post again.
This is what people have been refeering to the past couple of pages.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 03 juillet 2013 - 11:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.

God this.

Male Shepard did not need to have just about every female throwing her panties at him. I found that far far more aggravating immersion breaking and plain annoying than all bi LIs could ever be. I mean FFS the damn warrior monk who's sworn off relationships even gives a "I'd totally do you if I was younger." line! COME ON.

And renedouche needed to be rejected far more often too. Romancing aliens while badmouthing them constantly and touting human's as better made utter **** for sense.

Dedicated to Ryzaki:

Hey, if they can throw their panties at Bieber they might as well do it for Shep too. 

Most of the women throwing said panties at Bieber aren't grown career women capable of independant thought. You know like the ones throwing said panties at Shep.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2013 - 12:19 .