1981 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

There's no part of DA:O when you can call bull**** on the creators. That's what I'm getting at. I don't object to atheist options in-game - I'm happy to express my IRL views, after all - but this focus on the Chantry is actually ignoring the biggest source of actual pro-religious dogma in the setting, which are the Dalish views on the Creators. 

The Catholic Church parallels and rights abuses with the Chantry do a good job of showing the downside of organized religion - but the happy-go-lucky spiritual Dalish portrayal is, IMO, a rather big problem in terms of positive portrayals of atheism. 

Yes, we do need more Chantry Support, I agree. 

I rather liked that, of all the classes, the Rogue could be the most Andrastian of them all with the Tears of Andraste.

But we're getting off topic.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

But it wouldn't make sense for the PC who is an Inquisitor, right?

I have no idea how tied up to religion the Inquisitor would be.  From what I've gathered, the Inquisitor is allowed to express doubt, but not outright disbelief, so he is most likely going to have *some* belief, though I'm certain it will not be pro-Chantry.   

I hope the protagonist can be atheist, as well as straight, gay, or bisexual.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm more concerned with my agency over my character.  

So am I. As an IRL atheist, my non-belief doesn't stop at the Catholic Church. I'm also a non-believer when it comes to Islam, Zoroastrianism, Rastafarianism, Scientonology ... the list goes on. 

Using your definition of agency - expressing beliefs in game - I don't have agency over my character until I can express my atheism for every belief I'm confronted with in the DA setting. 

Who, unfortunately, is limited to a human main character.

Why does that mean I can't tell Marethari or Merril that they believe in a bunch of invisible BS?  Atheism transcends race. Hell, every religious belief is an atheist with respect to every other religion but theirs, so frankly even an Andrastian should be able to call BS on the Creators (though for totally different reasons). 

When racial options return, we can certainly revisit the issue.  

How about in DA:O, then? Because you couldn't call BS on the creators there, either. 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:42 .

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

Why does that mean I can't tell Marethari or Merril that they believe in a bunch of invisible bull****?  Atheism transcends race. Hell, every religious belief is an atheist with respect to every other religion but theirs, so frankly even an Andrastian should be able to call bull**** on the Creators (though for totally different reasons). 

Let us be fair now; there is more evidence for the Stone than there is for the other religions; even with the Ashes and the Mask of Flemeth taken into account.  :innocent:

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm fairly sure you can play as one in DAO, and there aren't really any atheists who are explicitly identified as such in-game aside from some DAO PCs and Morrigan.

There's no part of DA:O when you can call bull**** on the creators. That's what I'm getting at. I don't object to atheist options in-game - I'm happy to express my IRL views, after all - but this focus on the Chantry is actually ignoring the biggest source of actual pro-religious dogma in the setting, which are the Dalish views on the Creators. 

The Catholic Church parallels and rights abuses with the Chantry do a good job of showing the downside of organized religion - but the happy-go-lucky spiritual Dalish portrayal is, IMO, a rather big problem in terms of positive portrayals of atheism. 

I've never had an issue with having a religious character, I just hate Andrastianism and don't want my character to follow it. And how exactly are the Dalish being portrayed as happy-go-lucky? The overall portrayal of their culture seems quite balanced to me.

Why does that mean I can't tell Marethari or Merril that they believe in
a bunch of invisible BS?  Atheism transcends race. Hell, every
religious belief is an atheist with respect to every other religion but
theirs, so frankly even an Andrastian should be able to call BS on the
Creators (though for totally different reasons).

Because it's just rude? The only reason to say so is if they're trying to shove their religion down your throat, which the Dalish simply do not do; they're not demanding humans follow the Creators.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:45 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I've never had an issue with having a religious character, I just hate Andrastianism and don't want my character to follow it.

I know. But I actually am an atheist, so I would prefer my characters to express views like Morrigan does in DA:O. At the same time, I don't need to have my character express non-belief - I certainly don't go about telling people I'm an atheist IRL - as long as I don't have to express belief. And we've had that argument before on whether or not DA2 forces you into this, and I'm of the opinion that it does not.

And how exactly are the Dalish being portrayed as happy-go-lucky? The overall portrayal of their culture seems quite balanced to me.

If we go down this road we'll entirely derail the thread. 

Suffice it to say that there is absolutely nothing in DA:O to suggest that religion, with respect to the Dalish, has any negative influence or impact, or negative character, whatsoever. 

Because it's just rude? The only reason to say so is if they're trying to shove their religion down your throat, which the Dalish simply do not do; they're not demanding humans follow the Creators.

So now an RPG shouldn't include rude options? The reason to say it is that you don't believe in it, and that you want to challenge their views to move them in a more positive and humanist direction. 

For example, when Hawke's mother dies, Merril says she's in the afterlife. Yet I can't challenge that belief as nonsense, or her beliefs in the creators. It's especially insulting if you're an atheist when you've lost someone dear to you and someone basically says they're secrectly alive in a magical space dimension. 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:51 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

The Daelish are happy go lucky? When, exactly?

They're not exactly the Elves of Rivendell in the Hobbit or anything. They've had a home taken from them and will again (depending on the DAO ending), constantly wander from place to place, have to rediscover their own culture, history and language, can't really even stop close to a human city, and get harassed enough that they almost shoot humans on sight.

I understand there are people out there who want to be That Guy/Girl/Whatever and constantly wave their atheist battleflags every time any character has a religious sentiment, but yeesh.

[Nightdragon8]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The solution, then, is not to keep making exclusive romances, but to have women generally reject Shepard more often, for a variety of reasons.

God this.

Male Shepard did not need to have just about every female throwing her panties at him. I found that far far more aggravating immersion breaking and plain annoying than all bi LIs could ever be.

This, among other things.  I just want sexuality in the games in general to be more complex than "here are your 4 LIs for this game.  They will like you so long as you chose the flirt option.  That is all.  Carry on." 

Or just reduce the number of available LIs for Male Shepard, like ME3 did for Female Shepard, to reinforce the notion that not every woman in the galaxy wants to bear his children.

yes because "young adults" never say "I want his love child" when talking about some teen idol.... (sat next to one in Junior High... ) took all I had not to laugh at the stupidity of it.

Also Evil Knevel, had his share of women out to have sex with him....

So I think I can safely say, this is Art mimicking real life...

Considering at least Shep, was the biggest superstar to hit allince space for awhile now. Sure the colonies that "broke off" of the allince to go at it on there own, may not have known him.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile,

I have no problem with atheism perspective being included for a hypothetical Dwarven or Dalish protagonist. I address an Andrastian, mainly, because it seems the developers are focusing on providing Andrastian humans as protagonists.

Also, I don't need to condemn Sebastian or Anders for believing in the Maker any more than I need to condemn Marethari or Merrill for believing in the Creators. If a religious debate transpires (like when Anders tries to push his religious Andrastian views on Merrill), then I want my character to be able to express his atheist views.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Daelish are happy go lucky? When, exactly?

They're not exactly the Elves of Rivendell in the Hobbit or anything. They've had a home taken from them and will again (depending on the DAO ending), constantly wander from place to place, have to rediscover their own culture, history and language, can't really even stop close to a human city, and get harassed enough that they almost shoot humans on sight.

I understand there are people out there who want to be That Guy/Girl/Whatever and constantly wave their atheist battleflags every time any character has a religious sentiment, but yeesh.

In Exile wrote...
Suffice it to say that there is absolutely
nothing in DA:O to suggest that religion, with respect to the Dalish,
has any negative influence or impact, or negative character, whatsoever.

They had an Exalted March called on them in large part due to religious conflicts with the Chantry. They've had their religion banned, forced into exile, and shoved into alienages. I think that counts as "negative"

[Paul E Dangerously]

The Daelish are happy go lucky? When, exactly?

They're not exactly the Elves of Rivendell in the Hobbit or anything. They've had a home taken from them and will again (depending on the DAO ending), constantly wander from place to place, have to rediscover their own culture, history and language, can't really even stop close to a human city, and get harassed enough that they almost shoot humans on sight.

I understand there are people out there who want to be That Guy/Girl/Whatever and constantly wave their atheist battleflags every time any character has a religious sentiment, but yeesh.[/quote]

[quote]In Exile wrote...
Suffice it to say that there is absolutely
nothing in DA:O to suggest that religion, with respect to the Dalish,
has any negative influence or impact, or negative character, whatsoever.
[/quote]

They had an Exalted March called on them in large part due to religious conflicts with the Chantry. They've had their religion banned, forced into exile, and shoved into alienages. I think that counts as "negative"

[/quote]

[Xilizhra]

Suffice it to say that there is absolutely nothing in DA:O to suggest that religion, with respect to the Dalish, has any negative influence or impact, or negative character, whatsoever.

You're going to go into the whole Quickening thing/claims of eugenics/etc. Allow me to head this off by saying that that's not actually part of their religion, any more than Arabic honor killings are endemic to Islam (some Christians do it too, and Muslims outside the region never have that I've heard of); it's an artifact of a different part of their culture. The Dalish religion at its core is indeed quite benign.

For example, when Hawke's mother dies, Merril says she's in the
afterlife. Yet I can't challenge that belief as nonsense, or her beliefs
in the creators. It's especially insulting if you're an atheist when
you've lost someone dear to you and someone basically says they're
secrectly alive in a magical space dimension.

Well, you can tell her to be quiet and/or leave. Also, maybe it's me, but I'd much rather that they be in a magical space dimension than utterly obliterated, so I'll appreciate the thought anyway.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:54 .

[In Exile]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

The Daelish are happy go lucky? When, exactly?  

...

I understand there are people out there who want to be That Guy/Girl/Whatever and constantly wave their atheist battleflags every time any character has a religious sentiment, but yeesh.

Not the Dalish, their religion. And I don't want to waive the atheist flag. I happen to think the way DA2 handled it is just fine, and perfectly reasonable. But I hate hypocrisy, and this entire tirade against the portrayal of Andrastian views in game bothers me a great deal when it's tacked onto something I do believe in as basically a cheap ploy to hide people's burning dislike for a particular religion. 

[In Exile]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
They had an Exalted March called on them in large part due to religious conflicts with the Chantry. They've had their religion banned, forced into exile, and shoved into alienages. I think that counts as "negative"

That's not a portryal of their beliefs. The Chantry basically outright believes - among other things - that mages should be subjugated by mundates. They exclude men from the higher levels of their priesthood. These are problematic beliefs, that in a liberal democratic society, we should object to. 

The Dalish have been persecuted a great deal. But that's very different from their actual religion having a "darker" side to it. It just doesn't - it's basically a liberal view of what a religion should be, and there's not very much we do know about it. 

Xilizhra wrote...
You're going to go into the whole Quickening thing/claims of eugenics/etc. Allow me to head this off by saying that that's not actually part of their religion, any more than Arabic honor killings are endemic to Islam (some Christians do it too, and Muslims outside the region never have that I've heard of); it's an artifact of a different part of their culture. The Dalish religion at its core is indeed quite benign.

No, I'm not. My whole point is that their religion is bening, very positive, and quite spiritualist in a way that's relatable to most "soft" modern theists. This is what I mean about the portrayal of their religion. 

Well, you can tell her to be quiet and/or leave

But you can't tell her that her views are nonsense. And if you'll recall, Lob's entire argument as to why Hawke is forced to be Andrastian on this point is that he's either forced to tell her to be quiet/leave or to express Andrastian views. If that counts as being forced into Andrastianism, then this counts as my being restrained from expressing non-belief. 

Also, maybe it's me, but I'd much rather that they be in a magical space dimension than utterly obliterated, so I'll appreciate the thought anyway.

It's like going up to a sick person and telling them that if they pray hard enough, they'd be healthy. Sure, it'd be wonderful if the imaginary space being can heal you, but it's still cruel and insulting to essentially dismiss the absolute existential anguish someone is going through because your personal belief system says there's skittles at the end of the rainbow. 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juillet 2013 - 03:58 .

[BlueMagitek]

While religious attitude is certainly a part of characterization, I believe this topic is veering off course. >.>

[Xilizhra]

No, I'm not. My whole point is that their religion is bening, very positive, and quite spiritualist in a way that's relatable to most "soft" modern theists. This is what I mean about the portrayal of their religion.

Well, some religions IRL pretty much are that way as it is.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile,

I have no problem with atheism perspective being included for a hypothetical Dwarven or Dalish protagonist. I address an Andrastian, mainly, because it seems the developers are focusing on providing Andrastian humans as protagonists.

I'm not saying this to be rude, but I honestly don't think you understand what it means to be an atheist. It's not about non-belief in a religion that you've grown up with as part of your culture. It's about non-belief. It's not about reject "God", it's about rejecting gods. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

Not the Dalish, their religion. And I don't want to waive the atheist flag. I happen to think the way DA2 handled it is just fine, and perfectly reasonable. But I hate hypocrisy, and this entire tirade against the portrayal of Andrastian views in game bothers me a great deal when it's tacked onto something I do believe in as basically a cheap ploy to hide people's burning dislike for a particular religion. 

Please don't turn into one of those conspiracy theorists who thinks people only hate the Chantry because they really hate a real world religion. You should know better after reading all the posts where people explained why they hate or dislike the Chantry, their Circles, and their templars.

And if you're insistent on arguing about players expressing their disdain for the Andrastian faith, maybe you should make a seperate thread. I really think we should turn our attention back to the original post.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Please don't turn into one of those conspiracy theorists who thinks people only hate the Chantry because they really hate a real world religion.

Dude, what? I'm saying this whole talk about atheist on your part is just a way for you to soften how much you dislike the Chantry, and instead of making it about how you just want to express anti-Chantry views in-game, you're saying you want to be an "atheist" without appreciating what that really means. 

Again, I'm an IRL atheist. Ask yourself, why would I ever believe that there's some hidden conspiracy on people's part to hate IRL religions, when I'm just about the most likely person here to get painted with that brush in my day-to-day life? 

And if you're insistent on arguing about players expressing their disdain for the Andrastian faith, maybe you should make a seperate thread. I really think we should turn our attention back to the original post.

You mean, the posts on the last page that only talked about atheism, which is how I came into this discussion in the first place? 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:04 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well, the atheism tangent started because someone said there was no reason lorewise a player should be able to express disgust at homosexuality. Someone else said there was no reason lorewise someone should be able to express atheistic views but they could anyway.

Is there even any time you can express disgust at homosexuality? The only time I can even think of is the infamous Anders conversation, where the only negative/"I'm not into that" option makes Hawke sound like it's the most disgusting thing he's ever heard of.

Also looking back over that, FemHawke has less of a rejection penalty than MaleHawke does. Huh.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well, the atheism tangent started because someone said there was no reason lorewise a player should be able to express disgust at homosexuality. Someone else said there was no reason lorewise someone should be able to express atheistic views but they could anyway.

Is there even any time you can express disgust at homosexuality? The only time I can even think of is the infamous Anders conversation, where the only negative/"I'm not into that" option makes Hawke sound like it's the most disgusting thing he's ever heard of. 

That's something I hated about the Anders conversation.