1981 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

Because who they dated in high school is SUCH important backstory.

Right... because the story lines involving Ogrhen and Branka or Leliana and Marjolane for example wouldn't have suffered if each of them hadn't been romantically involved?

Are you really invalidating romantic relationships as an important part of defining and motivating a character?

Pretty long bow to draw...

[Drasanil]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
See, this is unfortunate. My perspective is more "We're trying to not overlook LGBT anymore people." Are LGBT people offended by what we did in Dragon Age 2?

I wouldn't presume speak for the LGBT community or any community for that matter, but I would say that tokenism (which is what DA2's PC-sexuals felt like) is just as bad as 'overlooking'.

Games of Bioware's quality should be focussed on telling a damn good story and NPCs are a major part of that. Have the NPCs be their own individuals first and foremost. I would say DA2's model on the face of it is just as condescending if only because it is so implausible at first glance. I would rather have a real variety of characters that reflect their own backgrounds and preferences regardless of the PC's. That some of them may line up, which ever way, is awesome, but that is a lesser concern.

NPCs should be their own people, that is part of what makes good NPCs. 

[Plaintiff]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I don't know, maybe as a heterosexual male (and Obsidian fanboy) my perspective is somewhat skewed, but I *loved* the depiction of both Arcade Gannon as well as Veronica in terms of their sexuality. It was played *so* low key and was not their defining trait by any means.

And there's nothing really wrong with that, but the more "low key" it gets, the closer you are to non-visibility. I never finished New Vegas, so I have no idea if Arcade or Veronica ever explicitly state their sexuality, but if they do, that would raise my esteem for the game significantly.

My personal rule is that if you're going to have an LGBT character, their sexuality should be made clear within the game/story/movie/whatever. Characters like Wade and Herren, or Dumbledore in the Harry Potter series, don't count, as far as I'm concerned (I know that seems harsh). If their sexuality is not explicitly expressed in the media in which they appear, then their sexuality might as well not have been considered in the creation of the character.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the thought, but that's all it is; a thought. It doesn't effect an actual increase in visibility for LGBT in media, and having the author express later (after the product has been released and is well-received) that "Character X was secretly gay all along!" feels to me like the author is trying to claim progressiveness in their work without having to risk negative impact and a loss of sales from more conservative elements in their audience.

I want to be clear: I am not asking for sexuality to be made any character's defining trait. I personally do not believe that sexuality has as much of an impact on personality as some people here seem to think it does. I am asking for their sexuality to be clearly expressed only when/if it's relevant for them to do so. If it's not relevant, then by all means, have the character keep quiet, but by the same token, don't expect kudos for "smuggling" a gay character in under the radar.

See, this is unfortunate. My perspective is more "We're trying to not overlook LGBT anymore people." Are LGBT people offended by what we did in Dragon Age 2?

For what it's worth, I think the DA2 romances are just fine. I'd go so far as to say their implementation was pretty much perfect. I know there are a few posters identifying as homosexual/bisexual/transgender/etc that are less happy with them than me, but being in the LGBT community doesn't necessarily make someone a good judge of LGBT content. 

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I wouldn't say it was implemented "pretty well", but something is better than nothing.

I don't know, maybe as a heterosexual male (and Obsidian fanboy) my perspective is somewhat skewed, but I *loved* the depiction of both Arcade Gannon as well as Veronica in terms of their sexuality. It was played *so* low key and was not their defining trait by any means.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I feel DA2's playersexual NPCs undermine that very notion in that it feels cheap and forced. Like something you put in because you had to as opposed to because that's just how things are. Ideally I'd like each NPC to be who they are independantly of who the PC is. I would have rather had 2 Straight and 2 Gay NPCs than 4 Bis.

See, this is unfortunate. My perspective is more "We're trying to not overlook LGBT anymore people." Are LGBT people offended by what we did in Dragon Age 2?

Personally I think the LGBT crowd has received the DA2 romances in mostly a positive way, at least insofar as having the option to romance whichever LI they choose without being forced to pick a gender to get the preferred LI.  This is NOT to say that some of the content has not been problematic, mind.  People have wondered why it is that Anders, for instance, would mention having had a previous relationship with Karl to a M!Hawke, but be totally silent about it to a F!Hawke.  There are also unfortunate implications in, as was brought up in another thread, having the openly bisexual characters also be the "promiscuous" ones. (This is kind of a can of worms, because there is also the question of just why promiscuity should be considered a bad thing, but alas, when the openly bi characters can be labeled this way when others cannot...the ugly implication is there nevertheless).  Finally, when you have a few female NPCs in canonically s/s relationships (Branka/Hespith and Leliana/Marjolaine, per your own mention), but are utterly lacking in any similar relationships between male characters...well, the latter's absence becomes glaring, especially when it fits into the larger pattern of the tendency of entertainment media to be all too willing to portray bisexual or gay women but shying away from homosexual men. 

DA2 does a better job than many other games.  But being better than other companies doesn't necessarily equate to being good.  I think that DA2 handled what it did offer quite well, but it does indeed have room for improvement.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because who they dated in high school is SUCH important backstory.

Right... because the story lines involving Ogrhen and Branka or Leliana and Marjolane for example wouldn't have suffered if each of them hadn't been romantically involved?

Are you really invalidating romantic relationships as an important part of defining and motivating a character?

Pretty long bow to draw...

I think they're a damn sight less important than you're claiming, and since gay couples are not functionally different from heterosexual couples, I especially don't see how the genders of the people involved in any given romance would make an appreciable difference.

[Dhiro]

I, too, was happy with how things were handled in DA II. I'd be okay if they tried to go with ME3's system, except of course by the unbalance of options between male and female Shepards.

But, as being gay does not give me access to an all-powerful hivemind, I can't claim to be a spokenperson for the LGBT community.

[Plaintiff]

Dhiro wrote...
But, as being gay does not give me access to an all-powerful hivemind

Until the eclipse, when we shall finally ascend to a higher form of life.

Prepare yourself, Initiate, for the Great One will be upon us soon. On that glorious day we will shed our decaying husks and the world will at last be ours.

[Fredward]

I didn't have a problem with the romance system in DA2. But I'm a pretty mellow guy. Sexuality isn't unimportant but neither do I think it's such an integral part that it shifting totally ruins a character.

[Dhiro]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...
But, as being gay does not give me access to an all-powerful hivemind

Until the eclipse, when we shall finally ascend to a higher form of life.

Prepare yourself, Initiate, for the Great One will be upon us soon. On that glorious day we will shed our decaying husks and the world will at last be ours.

Soon.™

[Sutekh]

daaaav wrote...

Right... because the story lines involving Ogrhen and Branka or Leliana and Marjolane for example wouldn't have suffered if each of them hadn't been romantically involved?

Would those story lines be that much different if "Marjolaine" had been "Marjolain" and Branka, "Branko"? 

Those past relationship count because of the personnality and deeds of the involved ex's, not because of the sexual orientation of said relationship. Marjolain would still be a treacherous jerk and Branko would still be obsessed with the anvil and slightly unhinged, and Leliana and Oghren still have suffered from it with the same consequences. 

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I wouldn't presume speak for the LGBT community or any community for that matter, but I would say that tokenism (which is what DA2's PC-sexuals felt like) is just as bad as 'overlooking'.

Games of Bioware's quality should be focussed on telling a damn good story and NPCs are a major part of that. Have the NPCs be their own individuals first and foremost. I would say DA2's model on the face of it is just as condescending if only because it is so implausible at first glance. I would rather have a real variety of characters that reflect their own backgrounds and preferences regardless of the PC's. That some of them may line up, which ever way, is awesome, but that is a lesser concern.

NPCs should be their own people, that is part of what makes good NPCs.

As an actual gay person I agree with this.

To go back to Mass Effect (a bit of a derail I know) I was very irritated when I found out Kaidan had been suddenly turned bi. It reeked of pathetic appeasement and encouraged the doublestandard that has propagated all over the internet that it is perfectly acceptable to change a straight person's sexuality for the sake of it.

"You can't like Coke and Pepsi! Pick one and stick to it until you die!"

[Dhiro]

I'd also like to raise the issue that, Wade and Herren aside, all the s/s relationships between NPCs we've seen until now ended very badly, to say the least.

[Allan Schumacher]

And there's nothing really wrong with that, but the more "low key" it gets, the closer you are to non-visibility. I never finished New Vegas, so I have no idea if Arcade or Veronica ever explicitly state their sexuality, but if they do, that would raise my esteem for the game significantly.

Both do, and both as casually as though it was not even really a surprising aspect of their character. The game also includes situations where you benefit specifically only if your character is homosexual.

I wouldn't presume speak for the LGBT community or any community for that matter, but I would say that tokenism (which is what DA2's PC-sexuals felt like) is just as bad as 'overlooking'.

I think it's *very* important to not speak on behalf of the LGBT community, if you aren't sure. If tokenism is as bad as overlooking, then what you're suggesting would be that providing nothing would have been equivalent (at worst) to what we provided." My own anecdotes would indicate otherwise, but I have no real pulse on the circumstances around that are in general.

I would say DA2's model on the face of it is just as condescending if only because it is so implausible at first glance.

Again, be very careful. You're speaking on behalf of a group that you don't actually belong to. I can't presume to know if the LGBT community found DA2 condescending or not.

I'm a white, heterosexual male. Which means I'm intrinsically incapable of fully understanding any stereotypes and prejudices that may come with any combination of being non-white, non-heterosexual, non-male. I'm not able to assess whether or not, if I were to be any or all of those traits, if my experiences in life would be as I expect they would be, because my assumptions and perceptions will always be tempered by reality that I actually experience.

I may have a pretty good idea, but I also run the risk of being very, very wrong, because of factors I just don't know of.

Each character just seemed different and reacted differently to the PC.

Is this really a reflection of their sexuality? Or is it something that can be improved upon in other ways?

Imagine if you knew (after my previous paragraph, I concede that you'll never truly be sure) their sexualities, but the players didn't react differently to the PC in any way. Would it be better than if you later learned that their sexual orientation was PC centric, though their actions do not change?

[daaaav]

Sutekh wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Right... because the story lines involving Ogrhen and Branka or Leliana and Marjolane for example wouldn't have suffered if each of them hadn't been romantically involved?

Would those story lines be that much different if "Marjolaine" had been "Marjolain" and Branka, "Branko"? 

Those past relationship count because of the personnality and deeds of the involved ex's, not because of the sexual orientation of said relationship. Marjolain would still be a treacherous jerk and Branko would still be obsessed with the anvil and slightly unhinged, and Leliana and Oghren still have suffered from it with the same consequences. 

If Ohgren and Branko had been business partners rather than lovers, then yes. The story would have less impact for me. 

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'm not really sure I get your poor analogy. Since coke and pepsi aren't a person's sexuality.

Kaidan expressing homosexual desire isn't a retcon of his sexuality. That he didn't express it before just means he had his reasons for keeping it private. Or, maybe he had a sexual experience late in life that opened his eyes to new possibilities. Maybe, after years of only drinking Coke, he took a sip of Pepsi and realized he liked it.

Really, there are any number of reasons why a person in a game or in real life might not express a homosexual inclination OMG RIGHT NOW.

[Allan Schumacher]

Cleaned up some posts.

Please do not attempt to derail this thread.

[Elrena]

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I wouldn't say it was implemented "pretty well", but something is better than nothing.

I don't know, maybe as a heterosexual male (and Obsidian fanboy) my perspective is somewhat skewed, but I *loved* the depiction of both Arcade Gannon as well as Veronica in terms of their sexuality. It was played *so* low key and was not their defining trait by any means.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment, I feel DA2's playersexual NPCs undermine that very notion in that it feels cheap and forced. Like something you put in because you had to as opposed to because that's just how things are. Ideally I'd like each NPC to be who they are independantly of who the PC is. I would have rather had 2 Straight and 2 Gay NPCs than 4 Bis.

See, this is unfortunate. My perspective is more "We're trying to not overlook LGBT anymore people." Are LGBT people offended by what we did in Dragon Age 2?

Personally I think the LGBT crowd has received the DA2 romances in mostly a positive way, at least insofar as having the option to romance whichever LI they choose without being forced to pick a gender to get the preferred LI.  This is NOT to say that some of the content has not been problematic, mind.  People have wondered why it is that Anders, for instance, would mention having had a previous relationship with Karl to a M!Hawke, but be totally silent about it to a F!Hawke.  There are also unfortunate implications in, as was brought up in another thread, having the openly bisexual characters also be the "promiscuous" ones. (This is kind of a can of worms, because there is also the question of just why promiscuity should be considered a bad thing, but alas, when the openly bi characters can be labeled this way when others cannot...the ugly implication is there nevertheless).  Finally, when you have a few female NPCs in canonically s/s relationships (Branka/Hespith and Leliana/Marjolaine, per your own mention), but are utterly lacking in any similar relationships between male characters...well, the latter's absence becomes glaring, especially when it fits into the larger pattern of the tendency of entertainment media to be all too willing to portray bisexual or gay women but shying away from homosexual men. 

DA2 does a better job than many other games.  But being better than other companies doesn't necessarily equate to being good.  I think that DA2 handled what it did offer quite well, but it does indeed have room for improvement.

I agree with everything Silfren has said here, and I'll just say ditto and add that I, personally, loved the fact that I wasn't limited in my romantic options by gender. It was lovely  

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because who they dated in high school is SUCH important backstory.

Right... because the story lines involving Ogrhen and Branka or Leliana and Marjolane for example wouldn't have suffered if each of them hadn't been romantically involved?

Are you really invalidating romantic relationships as an important part of defining and motivating a character?

Pretty long bow to draw...

I think they're a damn sight less important than you're claiming, and since gay couples are not functionally different from heterosexual couples, I especially don't see how the genders of the people involved in any given romance would make an appreciable difference.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I don't believe that gay couples are any different to heterosexual couples. My point is that these types of story lines are IMPOSSIBLE to include unless all characters are bisexual.

[Allan Schumacher]

My point is that these types of story lines are IMPOSSIBLE to include unless all characters are bisexual.

Or just not romanceable, as is the case with Oghren.

[Modius Prime]

If, said character, is bisexual, then there should be overt distinctions. Like in ME3, I hated how Kaidan's romance was 95% similar to femshep if you were broshep; it just doesn't make sense. Men and women have certain distinctions, and I understand the BioWare wanted them to be on equal footing, in an attempt to strengthen the female protagonist. But it winded up being really bland because it didn't really have that 'niche' that makes a romancable character feel real. In Dragon Age Inquisition, I hope that a bisexual character has more gender-specific lines, and not lines that are recycled for both sexes. Also, please refrain from sexual stereotypes. Don't make the gay man be a very weak character, because, as a gay man, I am definitely capable of doing a lot, if not most, of what heterosexual males are capable of (oh, and don't make another gay man and make the protagonist be able to romance a widower O.o). Also, don't make the lesbian women obsessed with water, like Samantha Traynor, because that romance dragged in more straight men than lesbian women. When the romance starts progressing, I want combat-dialogue where the LI is concerned for the well-being of said protagonist. Like if you're hit, then the LI will express concern. But please keep battlefield flirting to a minimum.

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Imagine if you knew (after my previous paragraph, I concede that you'll never truly be sure) their sexualities, but the players didn't react differently to the PC in any way. Would it be better than if you later learned that their sexual orientation was PC centric, though their actions do not change?

This is something that gets really tricky, because gender also tends to play a role in how other characters respond to the PC, which has implications of its own, and it's easy for that to get tangled up in the same question directed at sexual preference.  I don't have any earthly idea how widespread this issue is, but I do know from reading their blogs that at least a few women refused to romance Anders with a F!Hawke because they found his attitude toward her to be paternalistic and condescending, and still again there are others who refuse to play a F!Hawke because they were disappointed that all dialogue references to Anders' past relationship with Karl were completely absent.

I do think that, all things being equal, NPCs would, to a point, respond differently to a PC depending on gender, and in the case of LIs depending on the dynamics of the relationship, including both gender and orientation.  BUT, as in the case of Anders, it's been demonstrated that it's hard to do that in a way that isn't offensive and off-putting.  So on the one hand even though it seems odd that the interactions would be identical (mostly) regardless of your PC's gender and chosen LI dynamic, it would be kind of difficult to write them any other way that didn't create more unfortunate implications than it fixed.

[Firky]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
See, this is unfortunate. My perspective is more "We're trying to not overlook LGBT anymore people." Are LGBT people offended by what we did in Dragon Age 2?

There are some really thoughtful articles/blogs people have written about this. I dunno if I really want to go find and link them, but I've read about 8 over the past year or two.