1981 réponses à ce sujet

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Maria Caliban wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

You should IMO be able have a positive or negative reaction to any advance Heterosexual or Homosexual...

I want to be an advance homosexual.

Like the Charizard form of lesbian.

"This isn't even my final form".

Wow, I just realised this was a necro post. 

War BSN. BSN never changes.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 29 novembre 2013 - 11:05 .

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its honestly a valid complaint. Talking to LIs should not be a minefield where you end up in a relationship because you were 'nice' to them. Like Liara and Kaidan.

That's not what happens at all. All they do is express their attraction. You can tell them you're not interested and it'll never start.

I've seen you criticise other posters for 'demanding' that characters behave precisely the way they want them to, irrespective of of all other factors. How's this any different?

"I want to romance this character, so they should be available to me."

"I don't want to romance this character, so they should never have the gall to express an attraction."

Either way, players are demanding absolute control over characters and narrative, so that they can have the precise experience they want. Either both requests are unreasonable, or neither of them are.

Nevermind the fact that you're also saying players are completely justified in wanting to avoid romantic situations that they find difficult or confronting, but if, in a combat situation, someone wants a way to 'save everyone' rather than being forced to make a difficult choice, they're just being whiners.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 novembre 2013 - 11:26 .

[Ieldra]

I think it's very much OK for Bioware to write for mature people who see no problem in politely rejecting an advance they don't want. Having said that, this can be done in a natural way and in an awkward way. ME3 has a very good example with (male) Shepard and Cortez: When you meet him at the bar and he comments on the "eye candy", you can comment on liking the view of the female dancers, thereby expressing, in passing, that you're not interested in men as opposed to the other option. He then answers "Good, I certainly don't need you as competition". I found this perfect. You reject the gay romance and he establishes "romantic distance" while also optionally triggering a friendship. On the other hand, rejecting Anders in DA2 felt awkward, almost written as if to induce bad feelings when rejecting him. I didn't like that.   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2013 - 11:41 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Ieldra2 wrote...
On the other hand, rejecting Anders in DA2 felt awkward, almost written as if to induce bad feelings when rejecting him. I didn't like that.    

Don't forget the part where we got penalized for rejecting him, if we were going for a friendship.

Adding more to that, I think rejections need to be handled better too. I was going crazy when I realized I was in a relationship with Ashley in ME 1 when I was only being nice to her. I didn't see that coming until almost at the end of the game where that kiss interrupt scene happened.

As of now there are two things Bioware should take care of when it comes to romance in game
1) Our relationship status in game should not get updated to "in relationship"(the scenario where everyone talks about the romance with a certain character) just because a character confessed to the player.
2) We should not get penalized in any way for rejecting it. The characters can be cross with me romance-wise if I later decide to start a relationship with the same one I rejected. But I should not get "hate points" for declining them, I find this absolutely ridiculous.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 29 novembre 2013 - 12:26 .

[Lebanese Dude]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
On the other hand, rejecting Anders in DA2 felt awkward, almost written as if to induce bad feelings when rejecting him. I didn't like that.    

Don't forget the part where we got penalized for rejecting him, if we were going for a friendship.

Edit: Ninja'd by mole.

Like real life.

Sometimes you meet people who are blunt and outright state their attraction for you within a meeting or two. Granted those people tend to not care if you blow them off, but Anders is a very emotional person.

Anders happens to be one of those people. You can shut him down immediately if you have no interest in talking to him at all. If you are nice to him, he'll hit on you, and it's up to you to respond.

If you're a min/max'er when it comes to friendship and rivalry, then you shouldn't be complaining about natural responses to your dialogue choices because it ruins your RP experience.

It's not even that big of a rivalry hit. If anything it was a good way to show the player how emotionally unstable he was.

[Lebanese Dude]

Plaintiff wrote...
Either way, players are demanding absolute control over characters and narrative, so that they can have the precise experience they want. Either both requests are unreasonable, or neither of them are.

Nevermind the fact that you're also saying players are completely justified in wanting to avoid romantic situations that they find difficult or confronting, but if, in a combat situation, someone wants a way to 'save everyone' rather than being forced to make a difficult choice, they're just being whiners.

Exactly

Modifié par Lebdood, 29 novembre 2013 - 12:31 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Lebdood wrote...

Like real life.

Sometimes you meet people who are blunt and outright state their attraction for you within a meeting or two. Granted those people tend to not care if you blow them off, but Anders is a very emotional person.

Anders happens to be one of those people. You can shut him down immediately if you have no interest in talking to him at all. If you are nice to him, he'll hit on you, and it's up to you to respond.

If you're a min/max'er when it comes to friendship and rivalry, then you shouldn't be complaining about natural responses to your dialogue choices because it ruins your RP experience.

It's not even that big of a rivalry hit. If anything it was a good way to show the player how emotionally unstable he was.

Real life doesn't have a "Friendship/Rivalry" bar to measure it, so don't go talking about how it is justified. It should've been handled better. Fenris' one is a nice example, there's a normal conversation option between 
the initiate romance and end romance options.

This guy knows what I'm talking about. 

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 29 novembre 2013 - 12:43 .

[Lebanese Dude]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Real life doesn't have a "Friendship/Rivalry" bar to measure it, so don't go talking about how it is justified. It should've been handled better. Fenris' one is a nice example, there's a normal conversation option between 
the initiate romance and end romance options.

This guy knows what I'm talking about. 

Yea it doesn't. It doesn't mean that people won't dislike you a little for rejecting them.

Anders isn't like Fenris. Fenris may have ingrained issues, but he's rather stoic. Anders however, is a very emotionally unstable person. You can see it throughout all three acts.

Seriously it's such a small hit my Hawkes never even noticed it. I'm the kind of person that goes out of his way to make friends with everyone, but if I knew that if someone hit on me and I rejected them, they'd be a little pissed. 

That's just normal.

[TurretSyndrome]

Lebdood wrote...
Seriously it's such a small hit my Hawkes never even noticed it. I'm the kind of person that goes out of his way to make friends with everyone, but if I knew that if someone hit on me and I rejected them, they'd be a little pissed. 

That's just normal.

I'm saying it's not like real life because we can't respond in the way we want to in-game. We are bound by the choices given to us which is why I said that it should've been handled better. The characters have nothing to do with this, it's the way the system is designed.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:02 .

[Plaintiff]

So basically, what it boils down to is: "I shouldn't have to see any content that would make ME feel uncomfortable, but other people should be forced to put up with content I want that would make THEM uncomfortable. Bioware should stay true to their creative vision and write the characters however they want, except when I disagree with it."

[Reznore57]

Everytime I play DAO , I get ninjamanced by Leliana somehow.
She lecture my pc and goes all "Quit playing games with my heart" because I told her she had a nice hairdo or I liked her shoes , I don't know.
Anyway , it makes me laugh ,it's like some kind of running gag.

I may be wrong but it seems female players gets less offended when it comes to unwanted attention?

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its honestly a valid complaint. Talking to LIs should not be a minefield where you end up in a relationship because you were 'nice' to them. Like Liara and Kaidan.

That's not what happens at all. All they do is express their attraction. You can tell them you're not interested and it'll never start.

That's not entirely true. I ended up in a romance with Ashley in Mass Effect 1 just because I was nice to her, which was incredibly annoying. The later Mass Effect games and the Dragon Age series are much better in this regard though. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[Hellion Rex]

Reznore57 wrote...

Everytime I play DAO , I get ninjamanced by Leliana somehow.
She lecture my pc and goes all "Quit playing games with my heart" because I told her she had a nice hairdo or I liked her shoes , I don't know.
Anyway , it makes me laugh ,it's like some kind of running gag.

I may be wrong but it seems female players gets less offended when it comes to unwanted attention?

That is a fair point. I do see less females complaining here on the BSN  than the males about unwanted attention. 

[Wulfram]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think it's very much OK for Bioware to write for mature people who see no problem in politely rejecting an advance they don't want. Having said that, this can be done in a natural way and in an awkward way. ME3 has a very good example with (male) Shepard and Cortez: When you meet him at the bar and he comments on the "eye candy", you can comment on liking the view of the female dancers, thereby expressing, in passing, that you're not interested in men as opposed to the other option. He then answers "Good, I certainly don't need you as competition". I found this perfect. You reject the gay romance and he establishes "romantic distance" while also optionally triggering a friendship. On the other hand, rejecting Anders in DA2 felt awkward, almost written as if to induce bad feelings when rejecting him. I didn't like that.   

That doesn't sound like it would work very well if your Shepard is interested in men, just not Steve, though.

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its honestly a valid complaint. Talking to LIs should not be a minefield where you end up in a relationship because you were 'nice' to them. Like Liara and Kaidan.

That's not what happens at all. All they do is express their attraction. You can tell them you're not interested and it'll never start.

That's not entirely true. I ended up in a romance with Ashley in Mass Effect 1 just because I was nice to her, which was incredibly annoying. The later Mass Effect games and the Dragon Age series are much better in this regard though. 

Ashley annoyed me too. Not because she expressed an attraction to me, but because she seemed to keep pursuing me despite all my best efforts to make it clear that I wasn't interested in her.

I'd been planning to nuke her anyway, but her repeated sexual harassment saved me from feeling bad about it.

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Everytime I play DAO , I get ninjamanced by Leliana somehow.
She lecture my pc and goes all "Quit playing games with my heart" because I told her she had a nice hairdo or I liked her shoes , I don't know.
Anyway , it makes me laugh ,it's like some kind of running gag.

I may be wrong but it seems female players gets less offended when it comes to unwanted attention?

That is a fair point. I do see less females complaining here on the BSN  than the males about unwanted attention. 

It is an interesting point, because Dragon Age 2 also had Isabela very blatantly hitting on Hawke's of both gender, and you don't many people complaining about that. 

Although I do have to admit that I personally found the way Anders hit on my Hawke incredibly creepy, and I still can't put my finger on exactly what it was that made it so off-putting. Zevran, Isabela and several NPC's like Jethann hit on my character and none of those made me feel uncomfortable in the same way. 

I suppose in a way it was good writing, considering how distrurbed Anders is mentally, although I'm not sure it was meant to come across that way. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think it's very much OK for Bioware to write for mature people who see no problem in politely rejecting an advance they don't want. Having said that, this can be done in a natural way and in an awkward way. ME3 has a very good example with (male) Shepard and Cortez: When you meet him at the bar and he comments on the "eye candy", you can comment on liking the view of the female dancers, thereby expressing, in passing, that you're not interested in men as opposed to the other option. He then answers "Good, I certainly don't need you as competition". I found this perfect. You reject the gay romance and he establishes "romantic distance" while also optionally triggering a friendship. On the other hand, rejecting Anders in DA2 felt awkward, almost written as if to induce bad feelings when rejecting him. I didn't like that.   

That doesn't sound like it would work very well if your Shepard is interested in men, just not Steve, though.

Steve behaved fine with me, but I was already flagged as being with Kaidan, so maybe that makes a difference.

Bioware shouldn't be required to only write emotionally stable characters who can easily take rejection in their stride, though.

I thought the whole point of the 'anti-romancer' argument was that they didn't want characters acting like sycophantic yes-men (not that this was ever an issue in the first place). But now, in a situation that most people would find hurtful and humiliating, characters are expected to be 'cool' about it so the player doesn't have to feel bad.

[Ianamus]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The point is that players shouldn't be punished for it like they are with Anders. Part of this is the ****ty approval system and the part is that Anders can be your only healer and you can be screwed majorly because of that.

Well, it was only a relatively small ammount of rivalry, so gameplay-wise it's still very easy to get full friendship with him if you go around being nice to mages. 

Also, rivalry doesn't make him leave and leave you with no healer. It might put you off his character and not want to have him in your party, leaving you without a healer, but let's be honest: Anders was such a divisive character that this would have happened anyway, even if he was not an LI. 

So yeah, one +5 rivalry isn't going to screw players over gameplay-wise. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:39 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Wulfram wrote...

That doesn't sound like it would work very well if your Shepard is interested in men, just not Steve, though.

It does.

You end up having a choice of either saying that you are into Steve, or are waiting for the right guy.

Steve takes the hint, keeps on dancing, and even calls Shepard a great friend.

Frankly, this is probably what most people wanted from the Anders initiation. But Steve was way more stable than Anders ever was.

[Lebanese Dude]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The point is that players shouldn't be punished for it like they are with Anders. Part of this is the ****ty approval system and the part is that Anders can be your only healer and you can be screwed majorly because of that.

I agree that the approval system still needs work. 

I don't agree with what you said with regards to Anders, because he never leaves the party unless you explicity tell him to do to so, or kill him outright.

You'll always have him as your healer if you want him to be. You never get screwed over.

Modifié par Lebdood, 29 novembre 2013 - 01:39 .