1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Br3ad wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Having a social conscience means being concerned with injustice. Aveline upholds the law; they're not the same thing. She only seems to care about maintaining order, not so much doing what's 'right'. I don't feel like I get a good sense of her internal morality, but outwardly she seems perfectly happy to go along with corrupt authority, except when it inconveniences her personally.

Aveline approves of killing the deranged son of an influential magistrate, even though the orders are to bring him in alive. She is willing to go against the law if she believes it is for the greater good. 

And what's this about being concerned with injustice? There is one companion who gains friendship points forselling Fenris into slavery. Any guesses who that companion is? 

Is.....is it Isabella? 

Close. But it was actually Fenris. 

I was actually talking about Merrill. That innocence :innocent: is just a facade you know. In reality: 

Edit: I got beaten to it! 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[Afro_Explosion]

Br3ad wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As the only party member with a social conscience, I find Anders the most appealing by miles.

Umm, Aveline? 

Having a social conscience means being concerned with injustice. Aveline upholds the law; they're not the same thing. She only seems to care about maintaining order, not so much doing what's 'right'. I don't feel like I get a good sense of her internal morality, but outwardly she seems perfectly happy to go along with corrupt authority, except when it inconveniences her personally.

Aveline approves of killing the deranged son of an influential magistrate, even though the orders are to bring him in alive. She is willing to go against the law if she believes it is for the greater good. 

And what's this about being concerned with injustice? There is one companion who gains friendship points for selling Fenris into slavery. Any guesses who that companion is? 

Is.....is it Isabella?

Close. But it was actually Fenris. 

You mean Anders

[Br3admax]

Damn, I was so sure that someone like Fenris supported every Tevinter policy, especially against himself. I guess Merrill fooled me too, guys. I'm sorry.

[spirosz]

You know who has all of these?

Jack.

[Br3admax]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As the only party member with a social conscience, I find Anders the most appealing by miles.

Umm, Aveline? 

Having a social conscience means being concerned with injustice. Aveline upholds the law; they're not the same thing. She only seems to care about maintaining order, not so much doing what's 'right'. I don't feel like I get a good sense of her internal morality, but outwardly she seems perfectly happy to go along with corrupt authority, except when it inconveniences her personally.

Aveline approves of killing the deranged son of an influential magistrate, even though the orders are to bring him in alive. She is willing to go against the law if she believes it is for the greater good. 

And what's this about being concerned with injustice? There is one companion who gains friendship points for selling Fenris into slavery. Any guesses who that companion is? 

Is.....is it Isabella?

Close. But it was actually Fenris. 

You mean Anders

That was a joke, friend. Git wit it. 

[spirosz]

And DA:O

[HiroVoid]

Br3ad wrote...

Damn, I was so sure that someone like Fenris supported every Tevinter policy, especially against himself. I guess Merrill fooled me too, guys. I'm sorry.

Fenris was just jealous and playing hard to get.

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

Damn, I was so sure that someone like Fenris supported every Tevinter policy, especially against himself. I guess Merrill fooled me too, guys. I'm sorry.

Her innocence can be very deceiving. 

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...
Havng a social conscience also means acknowledging the otherside as well and realizing their points.

Is this going to be one of those things where you engage me (despite me asking you repeatedly to leave me alone), and then try to scold me for being 'confrontational'?

And oh my god, you couldn't be more wrong. There are many conflicts where the "other side's" points were/are objectively, factually wrong and invalid. Are you going to try and tell me that groups like the KKK or the Westboro Baptists have anything valid and worthwhile to contribute to the discussions in which they involve themselves?

Are you going to tell me that minorities and minority supporters should listen to and respect the opinions of people that want to oppress or even slaughter them outright?

It doesn't mean agreeing only with the side that you think is right.

This is just a string of gibberish. If you think someone's right, then you agree with them. They're the same damn thing.

Otherwise, everyone is in the right.

Nonsense. Having a social conscience does not require one to acknowledge or even believe in moral subjectivity, and acknowledging moral subjectivity doesn't mean validating your opponent, whose morals might be grounded in misinformation and lies.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[Br3admax]

spirosz wrote...

You know who has all of these?

Jack.

I let Jack become a phantom, after romancing her.

This edge. You can't handle it. This power. You can't match it. This cool. You get iced by it.

Moral of the story: I will destroy you, if you try me. 

[Afro_Explosion]

spirosz wrote...

And DA:O

She's even wearing tevinter robes

Modifié par mx_keep13, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:45 .

[Ianamus]

HiroVoid wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Damn, I was so sure that someone like Fenris supported every Tevinter policy, especially against himself. I guess Merrill fooled me too, guys. I'm sorry.

Fenris was just jealous and playing hard to get.

He was in tsun mode. 

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Havng a social conscience also means acknowledging the otherside as well and realizing their points.

Is this going to be one of those things where you engage me (despite me asking you repeatedly to leave me alone), and then try toscold me for being 'confrontational'.

And oh my god, you couldn't be more wrong. There are many conflicts where the "other side's" points were/are objectively, factually wrong and invalid. Are you going to try and tell me that groups like the KKK or the Westboro Baptists have anything valid and worthwhile to contribute to the discussions in which they involve themselves?

Are you going to tell me that minorities and minority supporters should listen to and respect the opinions of people that want to oppress or even slaughter them outright?

Looking at one side and agreeing with one side are not the same thing Plantiff. I acknowledge the KKK's argument.
Acknowledge-(of a body of opinion) recognize the fact or importance or quality of.

I found it much to be desired. I found it false. I did not however ignore it.

 

It doesn't mean agreeing only with the side that you think is right.

This is just a string of gibberish. If you think someone's right, then you agree with them. They're the same damn thing.

No it means that both sides have rights and wrongs and that you weigh them for yourself and decide which is the better of the two.

Otherwise, everyone is in the right.

Nonsense. Having a social conscience does not require one to acknowledge or even believe in moral subjectivity, and acknowledging moral subjectivity doesn't mean validating your opponent, whose morals might be grounded in misinformation and lies.

See above.

Also, good job with baiting. You are improving. 

[Plaintiff]

EJ107 wrote...
Aveline approves of killing the deranged son of an influential magistrate, even though the orders are to bring him in alive. She is willing to go against the law if she believes it is for the greater good.

I refute the assertion that killing sick people is 'justice'.

And what's this about being concerned with injustice? There is one companion who gains friendship points for selling Fenris into slavery. Any guesses who that companion is?

Since Fenris advocates the ensalvement of mages, it's perfectly understandable that Anders would be less than concerned with his wellbeing.

I didn't say Anders was above petty grudges, I said he possessed a social conscience. The two are not incompatible.

He only cares about the injustice facing his minority group, no-one elses.

Which puts him on par with the one other character who even attempts to better the situation of others (Merrill), and still puts him miles ahead of every other member of the party.

If he was not a mage he wouldn't care about them,

If Merrill wasn't Dalish, she wouldn't care about the Dalish. If Fenris hadn't been a slave, he wouldn't care about slavery. If Sebastian wasn't a member of Starkhaven's royal family, he wouldn't care about their assassination.

What's your point?

as he is completely unable to sympathise with anyone who is not like himself or doesn't see things exactly the way he does. 

Except he spends seven years healing the sick and poor of Darktown, at great personal risk to himself, and spends his free time trying to encourage peaceful discussion through the writing of manifestos, so that's a lie.

He finally resorts to violence ater almost a decade of trying other avenues, when it becomes clear that the Chantry and the Templars will never relinquish their death grip on the mages unless they are forced to.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:56 .

[Br3admax]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Anyway, its really dumb to bring the KKK or ****'s into the argument because none of those apply to the mage/templar conflict. Or are even close to it.

Every time I click on one of these threads that argument is always there. I guess there's always one.

Either learn to handle my obvious racism, or GTFO. 

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...
Looking at one side and agreeing with one side are not the same thing Plantiff. I acknowledge the KKK's argument.
Acknowledge-(of a body of opinion) recognize the fact or importance or quality of.

I found it much to be desired. I found it false. I did not however ignore it.

Then what did you mean by "realising points"? Your argument is incoherent.

Of course you don't ignore opinions if you have a social conscience, that's a given. Having a social conscience, by definition, means you pay attention to what's going on around you.

No it means that both sides have rights and wrongs and that you weigh them for yourself and decide which is the better of the two.

Okay, first you say that "realising points" doesn't mean agreeing with them, then you say both sides of a debate have "rights and wrongs". What, then, are the "rights" of the social groups you oppose? Since you say you've analysed the position of the KKK, why don't you tell me what they're correct about?

See above.

What am I meant to be looking at?

Also, good job with baiting. You are improving.

I'm not trying to bait you, I really wish you would disappear. But you persist in addressing me, and my own moral stance compels me to be diligent in representing my views, even though I earn nothing but headaches.

[Plaintiff]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As the only party member with a social conscience, I find Anders the most appealing by miles.

Also, I hardly consider complaning about being oppressed all of the time whilst ignoring other issues is hardly having a social conscience. It just means you like complaining.

It's a good thing, then, that Anders gives free healing to the sick non-mages of Darktown, even though doing so means putting himself at significant risk.

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Anyway, its really dumb to bring the KKK or ****'s into the argument because none of those apply to the mage/templar conflict. Or are even close to it.

Luckily, the debate has moved on to a broader discussion of what qualifies a social conscience, meaning all activist groups are now fair game.

[Ianamus]

Plaintiff wrote...

And what's this about being concerned with injustice? There is one companion who gains friendship points for selling Fenris into slavery. Any guesses who that companion is?

Since Fenris advocates the ensalvement of mages, it's perfectly understandable that Anders would be less than concerned with his wellbeing.

I didn't say Anders was above petty grudges, I said he possessed a social conscience. The two are not incompatible.

Fenris doesn't advocate the enslavement of mages. He advocates the confinement of mages inside large, well-furnished towers where they are free to do whatever they want. 

You said that Anders is the only charcter who cares about injustice, and yet he is happy to see a person who he doesn't like sold into slavery, even when other charcters like Merrill who also disagree with Fenris are devastated. Being sold into slavery isn't Justice- Justice himself (the spirit) outright says this in Awakening. It's sociopathic and vindictive, and a sign of a horrible person. 

Plaintiff wrote...

He only cares about the injustice facing his minority group, no-one elses.

Which puts him on par with the one other character who even attempts to better the situation of others (Merrill), and still puts him miles ahead of every other member of the party.

Completely false. Isabela helped free slaves and absolutely hates slavery despite the fact that she is not a slave, as does Aveline. Varric helps a promising Ferelden refugee out of sympathy, despite the fact that he is not a Ferelden refugee. All of these charcters help better the situation of others who are not like them, but all Anders cares about is the situation of mages- to the point where he is absolutely willing to allow other groups to suffer (read: outright killing every single priestess in the Kirkwall chantry). 

Plaintiff wrote...

If he was not a mage he wouldn't care about them,

If Merrill wasn't Dalish, she wouldn't care about the Dalish. If Fenris hadn't been a slave, he wouldn't care about slavery. If Sebastian wasn't a member of Starkhaven's royal family, he wouldn't care about their assassination.

What's your point?

Anders is an extremely selfish person who would only ever care about issues that affected him. As I said above, other charcters show sympathy for a wide variety of people- Anders only ever does for mages. Other charcters help free slaves and put personal grudges to the side in order to work with Hawke. Anders laughs with joy as the people who disagree with him are sold into sexual slavery. 

Plaintiff wrote...

as he is completely unable to sympathise with anyone who is not like himself or doesn't see things exactly the way he does. 

Except he spends seven years healing the sick and poor of Darktown, at great personal risk to himself, and spends his free time trying to encourage peaceful discussion through the writing of manifestos, so that's a lie.

He uses his work in Darktown to "prove" that mages are useful and helpful. It still appears to be for his own ends and to change peoples view of mages- not for the people themselves. Isabela gained nothing from freeing the slaves, but Anders spends his time promoting mages in Darktown and writing maifesto's going on about mages. He shows no sign of caring for anyone in the world outside of other mages and those who agree entirely with his view about mage freedom. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:27 .