1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Looking at one side and agreeing with one side are not the same thing Plantiff. I acknowledge the KKK's argument.
Acknowledge-(of a body of opinion) recognize the fact or importance or quality of.

I found it much to be desired. I found it false. I did not however ignore it.

Then what did you mean by "realising points"? Your argument is incoherent.

Of course you don't ignore opinions if you have a social conscience, that's a given. Having a social conscience, by definition, means you pay attention to what's going on around you.

In this instance, Anders is completely ignoring the fact that the Templars do have a valid reason to want to hold mages. He's ignoring the fact that mages can be very dangerous. He's ignoring that not everyone is in control of themselves or their powers. Every mage isn't harmless and thus the Templars are needed. 

No it means that both sides have rights and wrongs and that you weigh them for yourself and decide which is the better of the two.

Okay, first you say that "realising points" doesn't mean agreeing with them, then you say both sides of a debate have "rights and wrongs". What, then, are the "rights" of the social groups you oppose? Since you say you've analysed the position of the KKK, why don't you tell me what they're correct about?

You brought up the KKK, and here I'm talking about Dragon Age. Which is what we are supposed to be talking about. The Templar Order is not the KKK, nor do they have similar ideology, so I don't know why you continue to bring it up.

See above.

What am I meant to be looking at?

See above again.

Also, good job with baiting. You are improving.

I'm not trying to bait you, I really wish you would disappear. But you persist in addressing me, and my own moral stance compels me to be diligent in representing my views, even though I earn nothing but headaches.

No one has addressed your moral stance. Again, this isn't about you, we are talking about Anders. And while you continue to insult me or call my points gibberish, I have not once said a thing about you personally, nor have I talked about your views as wrong. I don't even know you. Just as you don't know my stance on this issue, or which side I support. Mage or Templar. If anything, I more believe that you used the KKK in this instance in an attempt to make me feel some guilt, making me support the mage view or in an attempt to defame being pro-Templar, which is not even something that I am. If that was the intent, it was a waste of time. If it was not, then I overthinking it. Either way, the KKK really shouldn't be brought up here. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Another point against Anders is that Fenris will turn on Meredith if you point out that the circles are slavery

I am not familiar with that dialogue. Fenris turned against Meredith because I romanced him personally. 

[Lebanese Dude]

I think this has gone very off-topic.

Modifié par Lebdood, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Anders is an obvious focal point of the discussion, but he's also a very controversial one. People are forgetting that he's infused with a spirit of Justice. He isn't a "normal" person like the other characters.

You can't even use the same characterisation parameters against him.

Modifié par Lebdood, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:42 .

[Hazegurl]

EJ107 wrote...
 He shows no sign of caring for anyone in the world outside of other mages and those who agree entirely with his view about mage freedom. 

Actually he doesn't even care about mages considering the fact that he does/almost kills one.

[Angrywolves]

Anders being retconned from his Awakening personality hurt his reception . That's a lesson for Gaider and Laidlaw, don't change character personalities from game to game.
I hated Anders when I learned what he had did. He got the murder knife. I've DAO 15 or 16 times, while I've played DA2 twice.
A lesson for Bioware. shrugs.

[Br3admax]

Lebdood wrote...

Anders is an obvious focal point of the discussion, but he's also a very controversial one. People are forgetting that he's infused with a spirit of Justice. He isn't a "normal" person like the other characters.

You can't even use the same characterisation parameters against him.

Uh, yes we can. Also, Anders corrupted Justice, not the other way around. Anders holds these view points on his own. 

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
 He shows no sign of caring for anyone in the world outside of other mages and those who agree entirely with his view about mage freedom. 

Actually he doesn't even care about mages considering the fact that he does/almost kills one.

Justice was a major point of that debacle, so that is a bad assumption/example to make use of. 

[Hellion Rex]

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders being retconned from his Awakening personality hurt his reception . That's a lesson for Gaider and Laidlaw, don't change character personalities from game to game.
I hated Anders when I learned what he had did. He got the murder knife. I've DAO 15 or 16 times, while I've played DA2 twice.
A lesson for Bioware. shrugs.

It wasn't necessarily a retcon though. Binding your a soul to a spirit and allowing yourself to be possessed would screw up anyone's personality. 

Modifié par eluvianix, 29 novembre 2013 - 03:59 .

[Plaintiff]

[quote]EJ107 wrote...
Fenris doesn't advocate the enslavement of mages. He advocates the confinement of mages inside large, well-furnished towers where they are free to do whatever they want.[/quote]
The mages are not free to do "wahtever they want". Are you blind? They can't even raise their own damn children. They have next to zero rights as human beings. They're as near to slaves as makes no difference.

[quote]You said that Anders is the only charcter who cares about injustice, and yet he is happy to see a person who he doesn't like sold into slavery, even when other charcters like Merrill who also disagree with Fenris are devastated. Being sold into slavery isn't Justice- Justice himself (the spirit) outright says this in Awakening. It's sociopathic and vindictive, and a sign of a horrible person.[/quote]
Justice is subjective, even embodying it doesn't make you the definitive expert on it.

[quote]Completely false. Isabela helped free slaves and absolutely hates slavery despite the fact that she is not a slave,[/quote]
Isabela worked as a slaver for years and willingly drowned a ton of them to facilitate her own escape, so there's that. She freed a shipment later to assuage her own guilt.

[quote]as does Aveline.[/quote]
Aveline is doing her job, I don't see any indication that she gives a crap beyond that. In fact, she actively ignored rumours of corruption among her own subordinates.

[quote]Varric helps a promising Ferelden refugee out of sympathy, despite the fact that he is not a Ferelden refugee.[/quote]
No, Varric helped a Ferelden refugee in order to further his own financial goals.

[quote]All of these charcters help better the situation of others, but all Anders cares about is the situation of mages- [/quote]
Do mages not count as "others"? What have I missed here?

[quote]to the point where he is absolutely willing to allow other groups to suffer (read: outright killing every single priestess in the Kirkwall chantry).[/quote]
Abraham Lincoln cared so much about the situation of slaves that he declared a brutal, bloody war on his own countrymen. Are you going to condemn him for that, or say that the end goal of abolishing slavery wasn't worth the bloodshed?

I've yet to see these droves of priestesses you claim Anders murdered, but since they aided and abetted a fascist religion in the oppression of multiple groups, I'm not going to shed a tear over their bodies.

[quote]Anders is an extremely selfish person who would only ever care about issues that affected him.[/quote]
So he's just like everyone else. Everyone gives preference to the issues that affect them personally. I guess every woman that campaigned for the right to vote was "extremely selfish" too. And everyone who lobbies for environmental protection is "extremely selfish" because they just want enjoy clean air and trees, and they don't care about that poor petrol company that wants to strip mine the rainforest.

[quote]As I said above, other charcters show sympathy for a wide variety of people- Anders only ever does for mages. Other charcters help free slaves and put personal grudges to the side in order to work with Hawke.[/quote]
Anders does everything that every other party member does, provided you bring him along. He works with Meredith to repel the Qunari, he works with Emeric and Cullen to solve murders. He'll help Sebastian avenge his family, even though Sebastian publicly contemplates turning Anders and Merrill over to the templars.

[quote]Anders laughs with joy as the people who disagree with him are sold into sexual slavery.[/quote]
Fenris makes it very clear that he'd happily do the same to Anders, given the opportunity.

[quote]
He uses his work in Darktown to "prove" that mages are useful and helpful. It still appears to be for his own ends and to change peoples view of mages- not for the people themselves.[/quote]
Except that's garbage. The Darktown beggars and Ferelden refugees have no sway in Kirkwall. Helping them earns him nothing.

[quote]Isabela gained nothing from freeing the slaves,[/quote]
She gained ease of mind from the burden of guilt she was carrying after she drowned a shipment of slaves to facilitate her own escape.

[quote]but Anders spends his time promoting mages in Darktown and writing maifesto's going on about mages.[/quote]
Yes, and at great risk to himself. If he was truly 'selfish', like he was in Awakening, he wouldn't bother. All Anders cared about in Awakening was his own freedom, and he didn't have any qualms about killing people that got in the way of that. Which is perfectly acceptable. People are well within their rights to use any means necessary to defend the lives and freedom of themselves and others.

[quote]He shows no sign of caring for anyone in the world outside of other mages and those who agree entirely with his view about mage freedom.[/quote]
And why should he? The rest of society wants to see him imprisoned and subjugated. It demonises and dehumanises him. The rest of society is the problem. It's what he is fighting to change.

[AresKeith]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's a good thing, then, that Anders gives free healing to the sick non-mages of Darktown, even though doing so means putting himself at significant risk.

Right before he blows up innocent people at the Chantry after criticising Merrill's and other elve's views.

Anders the hypocrite is nothing new lol

[Jaulen]

Angrywolves wrote...

Anders being retconned from his Awakening personality hurt his reception . That's a lesson for Gaider and Laidlaw, don't change character personalities from game to game.
I hated Anders when I learned what he had did. He got the murder knife. I've DAO 15 or 16 times, while I've played DA2 twice.
A lesson for Bioware. shrugs.

Okay....first.....everyone who says "Oh noes! I hate DA2 Anders, his personality was retconned!!!!" is missing the point that DA:A Anders is NOT the same person as DA:2 Anders. Um....fusing with spirit of justice and all that....so there was NO retcon....

 Bra3d wrote.....

In this instance, Anders is completely ignoring the fact that the Templars do have a valid reason to want to hold mages. He's ignoring the fact that mages can be very dangerous. He's ignoring that not everyone is in control of themselves or their powers. Every mage isn't harmless and thus the Templars are needed.

So, becuase of the fact that SOME mages may be dangerous.....it's okay to lock up ALL mages? That would be like throwing the wheat out with the chaff because you're too lazy to winnow your wheat properly. Or we could say....locking up ALL men to keep them away from women because SOME men are rapists.

Modifié par Jaulen, 29 novembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Chari]

I'm pretty sure Wynne didn't change her personality after being "possesed" by a spirit of Faith

Besides, no explanation for Merril change has even been done officialy. And there is one damn big retcon, even physical one

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its true that Anders new personality isn't a retcon. His new personality is just really, really badly written

Personal opinion. I think his character development adequately reflected the results of merging with a spirit without thinking it all through. 

[Hellion Rex]

Chari wrote...

I'm pretty sure Wynne didn't change her personality after being "possesed" by a spirit of Faith

Besides, no explanation for Merril change has even been done officialy. And there is one damn big retcon, even physical one

What retcon for Merrill?

Also, Wynne is a completely different story from Anders. Faith seems like a much more powerful spirit that might not be as affected by human emotions, like Justice was. 

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Chari wrote...

Besides, no explanation for Merril change has even been done officialy. And there is one damn big retcon, even physical one

Merril is the retcon however. And it still confuses me why they didn't just make a new character other than a desire to shoehorn the dalish warden's clan into the game.

What retcon is there? Cause I am not seeing it at all. 

[Cheylus]

This is not a retcon, the whole thing about him merging with Justice apart.
I know that a lot of players love characters set in stone but in real life most people change through their experiences.
However, it doesn't mean Anders was done perfectly.

[Jaulen]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its true that Anders new personality isn't a retcon. His new personality is just really, really badly written

I find his personality fairly well written when you take into consideration the whole fact that Justice is now there inside his head with him, a part of him.

Justice was my leaste favorite character of DAA.....he was one track, and black and white.

Sound familiar with Anders and his focus on mage issues in DA2?

And it's not suprising that Anders would be happy that Fenris got sold back. In Anders' mind, mages = slaves, Fenris is agaist slavery....but not the slavery of mages......so I could see Anders saying something like "Ha! If being a slave is so great....go back to being one." Although it IS childish and petty of Anders to do that. Very much so. And can be seen as Anders subverting the spirit of Justice into that of Vengance.

And the whole 'but one point against Anders is that fenris can be convinced to side with eh mages'....not in a playthrough where he was sold. So moot point. That's two different universes.

[Hellion Rex]

Cheylus wrote...

This is not a retcon, the whole thing about him merging with Justice apart.
I know that a lot of players love characters set in stone but in real life most people change through their experiences.
However, it doesn't mean Anders was done perfectly.

. 
^^This. 

[Lebanese Dude]

Br3ad wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Anders is an obvious focal point of the discussion, but he's also a very controversial one. People are forgetting that he's infused with a spirit of Justice. He isn't a "normal" person like the other characters.

You can't even use the same characterisation parameters against him.

Uh, yes we can. Also, Anders corrupted Justice, not the other way around. Anders holds these view points on his own. 

That is a huge assumption.

He held those points of view but he would not be as volatile if he weren't infused with a spirit. 

Perhaps he should be looked upon from a different perspective?

[Peer of the Empire]

 it is annoying to be hit on by same sex characters.  That is what has affected characterization

That is the gist of it.  No one is interested in navel gazing with you