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[Angrywolves]

Difference of opinion about Anders. I wonder how many players gave him the murder knife like I did. So did Justice corrupt Anders or the other way around. I would argue Anders corrupted Justice v, changing Justice to Vengeance. Justice would never kill innocent people but Vengeance would and did. Since Anders was the corrupter, he had to be retconned from his Awakening character, shoehorned into the role of the DA2 Anders but that's my opinion and others can and have disagreed, and that's fine. shrugs.

[Chari]

Jaulen wrote...

Chari wrote...

They have different, eh, shades of taste, but still consist of similiar essence and grow in a similiar process

And with that I'll stop replying to you, because you are being obtuse.

And you're being rude ;3

[phantomrachie]

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

The Dalish Warden is
my favourite origin and I've played it through multiple times and I don't feel
that we know enough about her character in DA:O to say that she was retconed in
DA2.



She was clearly
curious about the Mirror when it was found which is consistent with how she is
in DA2. We didn't talk to her about her sexuality so she could've been bi the
whole time as it didn't come up in the short time we spent with her. She is
perhaps not as naive in DA:O then in DA2 but in DA:O we only see her surrounded
by her clan mates and in a setting she is comfortable in; we don't see her
interact with any strangers apart from Duncan. 



All in all I think
that we knew very little about her character in DA:O and what we did know was
transferred to DA:2 i.e. she was the Keeper's First, knew Magic and was curious
about the Mirror

We knew enough to learn a bit about her speech pattern, a bit of mind set, and appearance - nothing of it stays in DA2. 
Curiosity is not against her personaity - this is probably the only thing that stays from the old Merril - everything else is. 
Old Merril was collected, calm and concentrated on mission, even if she did want to learn about the mirror
New Merril would talk about butterflies and can't even understand a simple trick or irony

The appearance of all Elves were changed to make them look less like Humans - I've no issue with that and I don't consider it retconing it is just adding to her original design. Merril in DA:O was calm and concentrated on the mission to save her friend; we don't know what she was like outside of that. Merril in DA:2 was also calm and concentrated on the mission when it involved somthing important - her work with the Mirror; the quest to speak to the Daemon etc. 
Does the Merril in DA:O understand tricks or irony? I've no idea it didn't come up in the short time I spent with her. And that is my point we spent such a short time with her in DA:O that we didn't really know much about her and hense her personality in DA:2 was not necessarily greatly changed.

[Chari]

Angrywolves wrote...

Difference of opinion about Anders. I wonder how many players gave him the murder knife like I did. So did Justice corrupt Anders or the other way around. I would argue Anders corrupted Justice v, changing Justice to Vengeance. Justice would never kill innocent people but Vengeance would and did. Since Anders was the corrupter, he had to be retconned from his Awakening character, shoehorned into the role of the DA2 Anders but that's my opinion and others can and have disagreed, and that's fine. shrugs.

Actually, you're right
Even D.Gaider wrote that the process was not one-sided. They both influenced each other. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger. The problem is, if Anders really wanted, then he probably could have released Justice. But for some reason he either doesn't, or can't anymore

[Chari]

phantomrachie wrote...

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

The Dalish Warden is
my favourite origin and I've played it through multiple times and I don't feel
that we know enough about her character in DA:O to say that she was retconed in
DA2.



She was clearly
curious about the Mirror when it was found which is consistent with how she is
in DA2. We didn't talk to her about her sexuality so she could've been bi the
whole time as it didn't come up in the short time we spent with her. She is
perhaps not as naive in DA:O then in DA2 but in DA:O we only see her surrounded
by her clan mates and in a setting she is comfortable in; we don't see her
interact with any strangers apart from Duncan. 



All in all I think
that we knew very little about her character in DA:O and what we did know was
transferred to DA:2 i.e. she was the Keeper's First, knew Magic and was curious
about the Mirror

We knew enough to learn a bit about her speech pattern, a bit of mind set, and appearance - nothing of it stays in DA2. 
Curiosity is not against her personaity - this is probably the only thing that stays from the old Merril - everything else is. 
Old Merril was collected, calm and concentrated on mission, even if she did want to learn about the mirror
New Merril would talk about butterflies and can't even understand a simple trick or irony

The appearance of all Elves were changed to make them look less like Humans - I've no issue with that and I don't consider it retconing it is just adding to her original design. Merril in DA:O was calm and concentrated on the mission to save her friend; we don't know what she was like outside of that. Merril in DA:2 was also calm and concentrated on the mission when it involved somthing important - her work with the Mirror; the quest to speak to the Daemon etc. 
Does the Merril in DA:O understand tricks or irony? I've no idea it didn't come up in the short time I spent with her. And that is my point we spent such a short time with her in DA:O that we didn't really know much about her and hense her personality in DA:2 was not necessarily greatly changed.

Elven appearance was retconned. For worse. They seem to make elves more like DA:O elves in DA:I thankfully
Well, she was clever enough to know that the forest was too quiet, Duncan probably had been there before, Tamlen was beyond saving
That Merril according to the toolset was wise-beyond-her-age.
Thanks to this Merril Hawke can't even trick a couple of guards because she fails to understand that he was lying to them. And no, Dalish are not that dumb
So, yep, we know enough. She was different

Modifié par Chari, 29 novembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[phantomrachie]

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

The Dalish Warden is
my favourite origin and I've played it through multiple times and I don't feel
that we know enough about her character in DA:O to say that she was retconed in
DA2.



She was clearly
curious about the Mirror when it was found which is consistent with how she is
in DA2. We didn't talk to her about her sexuality so she could've been bi the
whole time as it didn't come up in the short time we spent with her. She is
perhaps not as naive in DA:O then in DA2 but in DA:O we only see her surrounded
by her clan mates and in a setting she is comfortable in; we don't see her
interact with any strangers apart from Duncan. 



All in all I think
that we knew very little about her character in DA:O and what we did know was
transferred to DA:2 i.e. she was the Keeper's First, knew Magic and was curious
about the Mirror

We knew enough to learn a bit about her speech pattern, a bit of mind set, and appearance - nothing of it stays in DA2. 
Curiosity is not against her personaity - this is probably the only thing that stays from the old Merril - everything else is. 
Old Merril was collected, calm and concentrated on mission, even if she did want to learn about the mirror
New Merril would talk about butterflies and can't even understand a simple trick or irony

The appearance of all Elves were changed to make them look less like Humans - I've no issue with that and I don't consider it retconing it is just adding to her original design. Merril in DA:O was calm and concentrated on the mission to save her friend; we don't know what she was like outside of that. Merril in DA:2 was also calm and concentrated on the mission when it involved somthing important - her work with the Mirror; the quest to speak to the Daemon etc. 
Does the Merril in DA:O understand tricks or irony? I've no idea it didn't come up in the short time I spent with her. And that is my point we spent such a short time with her in DA:O that we didn't really know much about her and hense her personality in DA:2 was not necessarily greatly changed.

Elven appearance was retconned. For worse. They seem to make elves more like DA:O elves in DA:I thankfully
Well, she was clever enough to know that the forest was too quiet, Duncan probably had been there before, Tamlen was beyond saving
That Merril according to the toolset was wise-beyond-her-age.
Thanks to this Merril Hawke can't even trick a couple of guards because she fails to understand that he was lying to them. And no, Dalish are not that dumb
So, yep, we know enough. She was different

The Elf design change was a redesign not a retcon. In your opinion their redesign was worse - I liked it. It made them seem less like Humans with odd shaped ears.
Being naive and being stupid are not the same thing, in the forest she was able to detect danger in a city she is not - it's a different skill set.

Duncan probably had been there before

There was no indication that he had been there before - no one knew him.

That Merril according to the toolset was wise-beyond-her-age.Thanks to this Merril Hawke can't even trick a couple of guards because she fails to understand that he was lying to them. And no, Dalish are not that dumb

From what I've seen of the Dalish so far there is no indication that they lie to each other. Everyone seems to know everyone else's business. Not having experience with lying doesn't make her or the Dalish stupid it just makes them different because their culture is different.
Think what you like but I still maintain that we didn't know enough about her in DA:O to say that she has totally changed in DA:2

[Plaintiff]

[quote]The Mad Hanar wrote...
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where they are forced to do unpaid labor under tortorous conditions. The word you are looking for is imprisonment[/quote]
No, the word is definitely slavery. Slavery does not require either of the conditions you just stated. The legal definition of slavery is "a civil relationship whereby one person (oragnisations count as 'persons' under the legal definition) has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune".

Until recently, the Chantry had that absolute power of the mages, enforced via the Templars. Therefore, mages were slaves.

[quote]You claim that he is the only person that has a social conscience, yet he constantly does things of injustice, which is part of having a conscience. Expert? Not even close. A decent embodiment? Not even that.[/quote]
I don't accept the claim that Anders did anything unjust.


[quote]First of all, the Civil War's main purpose was to reunify the North and the South under one political body.[/quote]
In order to enforce abolition, whaich was why the secession occured in the first place.

[quote]Second of all, declaring war is nothing like committing an act of terrorism to become "listened to".[/quote]
Explain to me how they're different.

[quote]Third of all, we have never had any proof that any of these preistesses have done anything like that.[/quote]
The fact that they are priestesses is already demning evidence. If they didn't want to oppress people, then they shouldn't have joined the Chantry in the first place. Joinging the Chantry is, in and of itself, an act in support of the oppression of the Chantry.

[quote]Fourth of all, you're convieniently ignoring that the Chantry does many charitable things, as we saw at the beginning of DA:O.[/quote]
I'm not ignoring it, it's just irrelevent. Charitable acts don't cancel out travesties. A bully may be nice to his friends, but that doesn't make him any less of a bully.

[quote]Fifth of all, you consider imprisioning people to protect other people morally wrong,[/quote]
Since the majority of imprisoned mages have yet to harm anyone, there's no reason to assume the populace is in any danger from them. Imprisoning someone for something they might do is prejudice, pure and simple.

[quote]yet killing people is okay? That's pretty disturbing.[/quote]
If you're legitimately defending yourself, you should use any means necessary. The Chantry was not defending itself, it was being aggressive, it was attacking mages before they even did anything wrong.

[quote]Well, if their goal was to shut down the Petrol company, then yes. They'd be making many people lose their jobs just so they could have the world match their vision.[/quote]
What's more important? Jobs or an inhabitable planet?

[quote]So the guy with a conscience acts just like the guy without a conscience? Interesting.[/quote]
No, they are similar in one very specific respect. In all other ways they're very diferent. Anders demonstrates his social conscience by going out of his way to help others during his free time. Fenris, meanwhile, squats in his mansion and drinks himself into a stupor.

[quote]Except he gains a good reputation amongst the people in the town to the point where they won't give him away to the Templars. That's pretty useful. Also, he wants to feel like he's doing some good, much like Isabella.[/quote]
"Wanting to feel like you're doing some good" is exactly the mindset of an individual with a social conscience.

[quote]So, again, imprisioning the mages because they are by their nature dangerous, yet killing people is okay? Again, intersting.[/quote]
Everything and everyone is potentially dangerous. Imprisoning someone who hasn't harmed you or anyone else is absolutely wrong and always will be.

Protecting yourself from unjust imprisonment, by any means necessary, is absolutely right and always will be. It's called self-defense.

[Chari]

phantomrachie wrote...

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

Chari wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

The Dalish Warden is
my favourite origin and I've played it through multiple times and I don't feel
that we know enough about her character in DA:O to say that she was retconed in
DA2.



She was clearly
curious about the Mirror when it was found which is consistent with how she is
in DA2. We didn't talk to her about her sexuality so she could've been bi the
whole time as it didn't come up in the short time we spent with her. She is
perhaps not as naive in DA:O then in DA2 but in DA:O we only see her surrounded
by her clan mates and in a setting she is comfortable in; we don't see her
interact with any strangers apart from Duncan. 



All in all I think
that we knew very little about her character in DA:O and what we did know was
transferred to DA:2 i.e. she was the Keeper's First, knew Magic and was curious
about the Mirror

We knew enough to learn a bit about her speech pattern, a bit of mind set, and appearance - nothing of it stays in DA2. 
Curiosity is not against her personaity - this is probably the only thing that stays from the old Merril - everything else is. 
Old Merril was collected, calm and concentrated on mission, even if she did want to learn about the mirror
New Merril would talk about butterflies and can't even understand a simple trick or irony

The appearance of all Elves were changed to make them look less like Humans - I've no issue with that and I don't consider it retconing it is just adding to her original design. Merril in DA:O was calm and concentrated on the mission to save her friend; we don't know what she was like outside of that. Merril in DA:2 was also calm and concentrated on the mission when it involved somthing important - her work with the Mirror; the quest to speak to the Daemon etc. 
Does the Merril in DA:O understand tricks or irony? I've no idea it didn't come up in the short time I spent with her. And that is my point we spent such a short time with her in DA:O that we didn't really know much about her and hense her personality in DA:2 was not necessarily greatly changed.

Elven appearance was retconned. For worse. They seem to make elves more like DA:O elves in DA:I thankfully
Well, she was clever enough to know that the forest was too quiet, Duncan probably had been there before, Tamlen was beyond saving
That Merril according to the toolset was wise-beyond-her-age.
Thanks to this Merril Hawke can't even trick a couple of guards because she fails to understand that he was lying to them. And no, Dalish are not that dumb
So, yep, we know enough. She was different

The Elf design change was a redesign not a retcon. In your opinion their redesign was worse - I liked it. It made them seem less like Humans with odd shaped ears.
Being naive and being stupid are not the same thing, in the forest she was able to detect danger in a city she is not - it's a different skill set.

Duncan probably had been there before

There was no indication that he had been there before - no one knew him.

That Merril according to the toolset was wise-beyond-her-age.Thanks to this Merril Hawke can't even trick a couple of guards because she fails to understand that he was lying to them. And no, Dalish are not that dumb

From what I've seen of the Dalish so far there is no indication that they lie to each other. Everyone seems to know everyone else's business. Not having experience with lying doesn't make her or the Dalish stupid it just makes them different because their culture is different.
Think what you like but I still maintain that we didn't know enough about her in DA:O to say that she has totally changed in DA:2

It was retcon because it contradicted previously approved state of race. Opinon doesn't really matter here. Retcon is retcon. And yep, It contradicted lore and common sense
It is a simple common sense to know when you sharky sharpwitted friend lies about a fire to distract guards while trying to sneak into a building. It doesn't take a rocker scientist. 
Did you forget about the bonfire they found in the forest which indicated that somebody had been there before?
Eeeh, what? Do you think dalish don't understand sarcasm? We They are not that stupid. In fact, the main hero can joke and mae up facts while telling kids about elven history. Recall that cute dialogue? Plus a couple of dialogues in DA2 about a guy who accidentally destroyed iron wood and didn't want to tell the smith about that. Lying is a natural thing, everyone lies and understand lies.
DA2 Merril is different from DA:O Merril. It is as clear as day

[Reznore57]

*cough* Sister Petrice *cough*.
Anyway not really mages related...
But I don't understand how anybody can think Anders is right , it's like those dudes who want to save animals , go to a zoo , open all the cages...and think "Yes, freedom for all!"
Of course most animals are going to die , people will get in danger ...but whatever , I guess the message coming across is more important than the end results?

[Afro_Explosion]

How was merril retconned when you barely got to see her personality outside of a serious situation

[phantomrachie]

Chari wrote...
It was retcon because it contradicted previously approved state of race. Opinon doesn't really matter here. Retcon is retcon. And yep, It contradicted lore and common sense

No its a redesign because they never explained that Elves looked liked humans with weird ears due to ....reasons but I'm not going to argue semantics here. The resdesign doesn't contradict lore because there was never a lore reason as to why elves looked they did and common sense? well I don't see how making them look less like humans contradics common sense, they are after all a different race.

Chari wrote...
It is a simple common sense to know when you sharky sharpwitted friend lies about a fire to distract guards while trying to sneak into a building. It doesn't take a rocker scientist. Did you forget about the bonfire they found in the forest which indicated that somebody had been there before?
Eeeh, what?

Its common sense for you - not necessarily a Dalish Woman who spent her whole life travelling with her clan; people who she knew. There is a culture difference between the Dalish and those that live in Kirkwall, I'm not saying that she is stupid but that she is navie to the ways of the city. So any Dalish could still be able to tell when a fire was last used but not necessarily know how to convincingly trick someone- as I said the skill sets are different. A rocket scientist and a brain sergon are both very intelligent people but they can't necessarily do each others jobs.

Chari wrote...
In fact, the main hero can joke and mae up facts while telling kids about elven history. Recall that cute dialogue? 

A joke lie that you expect to be uncovered and a outright lie that you are trying to get away with are two seperate things.

Chari wrote...
Plus a couple of dialogues in DA2 about a guy who accidentally destroyed iron wood and didn't want to tell the smith about that. Lying is a natural thing, everyone lies and understand lies. 

I don't remember those but I do remember the one where the appearance did tell the smith that he destoried the Ironbark in DA:O. Not everyone lies and I still have yet to see evidence that the Dalish do

Chari wrote...
DA2 Merril is different from DA:O Merril. It is as clear as day

I don't agree and neither of us have managed to provide evidence to convince the other that our position is correct.

[Afro_Explosion]

Morocco Mole wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

How was merril retconned when you barely got to see her personality outside of a serious situation

You see enough of it to know that the Merril in Origins and that the Merril in DA2 are two seperate people entirely.

even  if she was retconned from a at most 30 minute appearance who cares, they changed from a person only remembered as the keepers apprentice to a naive but driven person who makes some pretty bad  decisions

[Chari]

phantomrachie wrote...

Chari wrote...
It was retcon because it contradicted previously approved state of race. Opinon doesn't really matter here. Retcon is retcon. And yep, It contradicted lore and common sense

No its a redesign because they never explained that Elves looked liked humans with weird ears due to ....reasons but I'm not going to argue semantics here. The resdesign doesn't contradict lore because there was never a lore reason as to why elves looked they did and common sense? well I don't see how making them look less like humans contradics common sense, they are after all a different race.

Chari wrote...
It is a simple common sense to know when you sharky sharpwitted friend lies about a fire to distract guards while trying to sneak into a building. It doesn't take a rocker scientist. Did you forget about the bonfire they found in the forest which indicated that somebody had been there before?
Eeeh, what?

Its common sense for you - not necessarily a Dalish Woman who spent her whole life travelling with her clan; people who she knew. There is a culture difference between the Dalish and those that live in Kirkwall, I'm not saying that she is stupid but that she is navie to the ways of the city. So any Dalish could still be able to tell when a fire was last used but not necessarily know how to convincingly trick someone- as I said the skill sets are different. A rocket scientist and a brain sergon are both very intelligent people but they can't necessarily do each others jobs.

Chari wrote...
In fact, the main hero can joke and mae up facts while telling kids about elven history. Recall that cute dialogue? 

A joke lie that you expect to be uncovered and a outright lie that you are trying to get away with are two seperate things.

Chari wrote...
Plus a couple of dialogues in DA2 about a guy who accidentally destroyed iron wood and didn't want to tell the smith about that. Lying is a natural thing, everyone lies and understand lies. 

I don't remember those but I do remember the one where the appearance did tell the smith that he destoried the Ironbark in DA:O. Not everyone lies and I still have yet to see evidence that the Dalish do

Chari wrote...
DA2 Merril is different from DA:O Merril. It is as clear as day

I don't agree and neither of us have managed to provide evidence to convince the other that our position is correct.

Actually we saw elves in DA:O and read some description in the books and even hear Velanna's commentary once (she says that the only thing that makes elves the same is... well, pointy ears and slightly more fragile bone structure). There elves constantly are described as beautiful by human standards. When a race see a person of a different race beautiful, the reason is standardly the similiarity between this person and the ideals of the race who sees them that way.
Meaning, that elves do resemble humans. 
These proportions were unbelievable anyway (too long neck, too thin bodies, limbs) for a DA-style world anyway

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand sarcasm. Dalish know how to sarcasm. We are not that dim

The situation was clear, the mission - as well. Even Oghren would understand that. That was... unbelieavable stupid. really

Then your memory lies to you. Since prior to that he talks about that to some girl and says that he doesn't want to tell his master. Again, lying is natural ability of sentient beings. Saying that dalish don't lie... is ridiculous. Mahariel can lie, in fact, we even can lie to Merril in the same quest about Feynarel. Even qunari can lie and joke, and these guys are as hardcore as rocks

[Chari]

mx_keep13 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

How was merril retconned when you barely got to see her personality outside of a serious situation

You see enough of it to know that the Merril in Origins and that the Merril in DA2 are two seperate people entirely.

even  if she was retconned from a at most 30 minute appearance who cares, they changed from a person only remembered as the keepers apprentice to a naive but driven person who makes some pretty bad  decisions

Retcon is retcon. It shows that they don't even care
And that origin is no less important than other origins. But we don't see Cousland family miracleously coming back from dead or Jowan becoming a templar, do we?

[Lebanese Dude]

Morocco Mole wrote...

even if she was retconned from a at most 30 minute appearance who cares, they changed from a person only remembered as the keepers apprentice to a naive but driven person who makes some pretty bad decisions

Because its bad writing.

No it's not.

[Lebanese Dude]

Chari wrote...
Retcon is retcon. It shows that they don't even care
And that origin is no less important than other origins. But we don't see Cousland family miracleously coming back from dead or Jowan becoming a templar, do we?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

This is a personality switch of a minor character in one of the origins.
Merrill's personality, in no way, affected the Dalish origin. 

The deaths of the Cousland family and Jowan's blood magic, on the other hand, are a driving force for the other origins.

If you're going to cite examples, do so logically.

[Chari]

Lebdood wrote...

Chari wrote...
Retcon is retcon. It shows that they don't even care
And that origin is no less important than other origins. But we don't see Cousland family miracleously coming back from dead or Jowan becoming a templar, do we?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

This is a personality switch of a minor character in one of the origins.
Merrill's personality, in no way, affected the Dalish origin. 

The deaths of the Cousland family and Jowan's blood magic, on the other hand, are a driving force for the other origins.

If you're going to cite examples, do so logically.

It's a part of an origin, no less important that human or dwarf origins. It is a companion, an important part of understand lore - we learn about the First, about the Keepers, about Mahariel's past
Neglecting such characters and changing them through a retcon is a sign of bad writing and nothing else :3
Oh, BSN and it's people who start insulting each other once they have no more arguments :3

Modifié par Chari, 29 novembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Chari]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Lebdood wrote...


No it's not.

It is bad writing to change an existing character's personality to another with no explanation. No matter how minor said character is.

Indeed.
In fact, it was a poor attempt to connect Sabrae's clan, the mirror and DA2
They could easily make a new clan and connect it to the mirror, but, dang, they didn't

[Angrywolves]

Yes Merrill was retconned , she was completely different in DA2 than she was in DAO. I agree it's obfious although we saw less of her in the dalish origins than we did of Anders in Awakening . But it's an opinion some players have, others disagree and not worth getting upset about.
Anders is dead in my playthroughs. I don't want to see him in DAI and I hope he isn't forced on us.
Merrill is alive in my playthroughs so she can be an npc or even an agent, I wouldn't want her as a party member again though.

[dreamgazer]

Lebdood wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

even if she was retconned from a at most 30 minute appearance who cares, they changed from a person only remembered as the keepers apprentice to a naive but driven person who makes some pretty bad decisions

Because its bad writing.

No it's not.

It's intentionally inconsistent writing, which can easily be interpreted as poor writing.

She was a bland, throwaway pawn in one origin story, though. Just wish they didn't go so far in another direction.

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

even if she was retconned from a at most 30 minute appearance who cares, they changed from a person only remembered as the keepers apprentice to a naive but driven person who makes some pretty bad decisions

Because its bad writing.

No it's not.

It's intentionally inconsistent writing, which can easily be interpreted as poor writing.

She was a bland, throwaway pawn in one origin story, though. Just wish they didn't go so far in another direction.

I just don't see why they didn't just make a new character