1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

it just doesn't make sense.

Why not? (genuine question, I don't know the answer to it)

[Drasanil]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I think it's *very* important to not speak on behalf of the LGBT community, if you aren't sure.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Again, be very careful. You're speaking on behalf of a group that you don't actually belong to. I can't presume to knowif the LGBT community found DA2 condescending or not.

I said I would never presume to speak for the LGBT community. That is quite different from being a part of it. The reason I said I wouldn't presume to speak for the LGBT community is that no community is monolithic nor can it be represented as such. Anyone who claims to do so either has delusions of grandeur or is frankly full of excrement and trying to score cheap points.

I would say your casual dismissal of my arguments for not percieving me to be a part of the community, because I failed to claim the mantle of LGBT Champion, is in itself quite dismissive and condesending. 

[Modius Prime]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

it just doesn't make sense.

Why not? (genuine question, I don't know the answer to it)

If you keep reading, I said that men and women have certain distinctions. It doesn't have to all be the same. As I said, as part of the LGBT community (and you were looking for perspective), there are overt distinctions between romances. A bisexual man wouldn't talk the same to a gay man, or a straight women. 

Edit: besides, stuff like this can add to replay value. If there are a lot of distinctions, then I would gladly play as a female character and romance a bisexual character to see the other side.

Modifié par Modius Prime, 28 juin 2013 - 08:25 .

[Allan Schumacher]

So on the one hand even though it seems odd that the interactions would be identical (mostly) regardless of your PC's gender and chosen LI dynamic, it would be kind of difficult to write them any other way that didn't create more unfortunate implications than it fixed.

This is where I trip up the most.

I'm generally of the opinion that homosexuals don't want to be seen as different. Since I'm not gay (there are people at BioWare that are, however. IIRC Patrick Weekes specifically mentioned consulting someone on staff about Samantha Traynor to make sure that she came across as authentic and respectful as possible), I can only guess (educated or otherwise) how the situation plays out.

This does remind me, however, that I think it's important to note that it's futile to try to please everyone. And just like there are people that feel insulted with other content while others think it's great, there's going to be LGBT people not happy with our implementation of a particular sort of LGBT relationship, and there's going to be people that are. And typically, the people that are not happy are going to be the ones dragging me over the coals for being disrespectful/insulting/anything else.

[Plaintiff]

The "distinctions" between men and women are largely socially constructed, rather than based on anything substantive, and I don't think they're something that writers of a fantasy or sci-fi work should necessarily adhere to.

[Allan Schumacher]

If you keep reading, I said that men and women have certain distinctions. It doesn't have to all be the same.

What distinctions are you talking about?

As I said, as part of the LGBT community (and you were looking for perspective), there are overt distinctions between romances. A bisexual man wouldn't talk the same to a gay man, or a straight women.

The word distinctions is vague. You haven't given me any perspective aside from "it's different." How?

I would say your casual dismissal of my arguments for not percieving me to be a part of the community, because I failed to claim the mantle of LGBT Champion, is in itself quite dismissive and condesending.

You're right, that was a poor interpretation on my part. And it draws an excellent point. At our VERY core, no one can ever speak on behalf of anyone but themselves.

But if you feel I'm dismissive and condescending, that's your prerogative. I'll not make the situation worse.

[daaaav]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point is that these types of story lines are IMPOSSIBLE to include unless all characters are bisexual.

Or just not romanceable, as is the case with Oghren.

That would lead to the absurd situation where the only characters who are not developed as sexual beings are the ones who are expected to engage romantically with the player...One way of doing it I guess...

Whatever you do, I would hope that the implications have atleast been discussed though. 

[Modius Prime]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you keep reading, I said that men and women have certain distinctions. It doesn't have to all be the same.

What distinctions are you talking about?

As I said, as part of the LGBT community (and you were looking for perspective), there are overt distinctions between romances. A bisexual man wouldn't talk the same to a gay man, or a straight women.

The word distinctions is vague. You haven't given me any perspective aside from "it's different." How?

I would say your casual dismissal of my arguments for not percieving me to be a part of the community, because I failed to claim the mantle of LGBT Champion, is in itself quite dismissive and condesending.

You're right, that was a poor interpretation on my part. And it draws an excellent point. At our VERY core, no one can ever speak on behalf of anyone but themselves.

But if you feel I'm dismissive and condescending, that's your prerogative. I'll not make the situation worse.

Like, having different lines. If you've ever romanced Kaidan as both broshep and femshep (new), then you would know what I'm talking about. I'm just asking for different lines, not making it 95% similar (the  other 5% is only if you rekindled a romance, and even that is miniscule). Or, maybe they could have different 'date' sequences. Like, maybe the M/M romance goes for a walk, and the M/F version goes for a horse ride, or something. Something to make me want to replay, or a reason to play the other gender and see how it plays out.

Edit: I don't want to be seen as different, but what I would want is a reason to keep playing. Anyways, isn't an RPG experience supposed to be about making the experience genuine, instead of thinking about what everybody else wants?

Modifié par Modius Prime, 28 juin 2013 - 08:39 .

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point is that these types of story lines are IMPOSSIBLE to include unless all characters are bisexual.

Or just not romanceable, as is the case with Oghren.

That would lead to the absurd situation where the only characters who are not developed as sexual beings are the ones who are expected to engage romantically with the player...One way of doing it I guess...

Whatever you do, I would hope that the implications have atleast been discussed though. 

They can be developed as sexual beings through the experience of the romance. There's nothing wrong with that.

What does a "developed sexual being" even look like?

[Allan Schumacher]

In any case I am off to bed.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

The "distinctions" between men and women are largely socially constructed, rather than based on anything substantive, and I don't think they're something that writers of a fantasy or sci-fi work should necessarily adhere to.

...I see that Plaintiff beat me to it.  I was just about to write a similar post.  It's also one reason why I personally find it odd that people make the particular complaints about having all the companions be bisexual to accomodate the PC.  Taking a thorough look at how sexuality has been treated in different cultures throughout the centuries suggests, more than a little bit, that the role of social conditioning in sexual identity (speaking of orientation, not gender) is not insignificant.  To bring this a little closer to being on topic, that a fictional world has a large number, even a vast majority, of people who are bisexual, need not be considered strange or implausible in the least.  We've already been told that Thedas does not have a foundation of heteronormative bigotry that mirrors real world prejudice, and without that, there's no real reason why we would not see more openly gay OR bi characters. 

[Kulyok]

To answer the original poster's question,

"How were the DA2 characters unbelievable, and how can this be blamed on their availability as LIs. For that matter, what about the bi characters from Origins? Were they better written, or were they equally watered down?"

I think that Merrill's ridiculous underwear and risque Hawke jokes(as opposed to her normal shy, bookish, awkward demeanor) seem to come out of the left field, but that might be just me.

Anders, too. He didn't make any advances on my attractive Warden-Commander, and suddenly he's bedding an ugly 60-year-old with a grey beard? Facepalm.


I think the character's sexuality is a huge part of his attractiveness, and it can work. For example, Oberyn Martell is incredibly attractive, because he's daring, charming, strong and free-spirited. The fact that he bedded boys and girls and had threesomes with his girlfriend only adds to his adventuring profile, so to speak. But he's also good father to his girls, and he cares much about his lover, and he's loyal to the family.

My problem is that I've never seen any of this love, care and loyalty in bisexual folks of DA/DA2. Leliana leaves her lover for... new adventures? Service to the Chantry? And she seems to stand against the mages - the case the Warden _might_ hold dear. Isabela betrays Hawke, Fenris leaves Hawke, Zevran possibly betrays the Warden and certainly cheats on the Warden(thanks to a small bug nobody cared to correct in DA2).

It's all nice and well and I certainly believe that betrayals and partings and greater causes are relevant, but to me it only adds to a "bisexual DA/DA2 character = promiscuous, easy, not loyal, expect heartbreak and cheating". Again, it's only my impression.

[Drasanil]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
You're right, that was a poor interpretation on my part. And it draws an excellent point. At our VERY core, no one can ever speak on behalf of anyone but themselves.

But if you feel I'm dismissive and condescending, that's your prerogative. I'll not make the situation worse.

I don't think you were being intentionally dismissive or condescending, so please don't think I hold it against you.

Rather, you helped me prove a point. Namely, that the stength of an opnion or argument should be considered on it's own merits and not based on what the person who is making it is percieved or claims to be. I don't want my opnions to be afforded special consideration, I just want to be afforded the same consideration everyone else's is.

[Plaintiff]

^^ Well not everyone subscribes to your personal definition of what is or is not attractive.

Have you taken a look at Karl? Maybe Anders digs the occasional silver fox.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

I've played other games that has no romance whatsoever (most recently Kingdom of Amalur I think).

The House of Ballads questline can end with you marrying the Maid of Windemare, even if your PC is a woman.

Alyn Shir and the PC are heavily implied to have been lovers at some point prior to the PC's death.

Plaintiff wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...
It doesn't have to strip away the LGBT presence altogether.

But it would. That is exactly what would happen. To pretend otherwise is foolish.

Interestingly, ME has more non-romancable same-sex content than DA.

I remember playing ME 1 for the first time, walking around the Citadel and seeing two asari snuggling one another beside the window.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 juin 2013 - 08:58 .

[Plaintiff]

 Seriously, someone tell me how we quantify a sexually developed being. I'm seriously concerned that I don't qualify. 

[Maria Caliban]

I assumed 'sexually developed' means that some aspect of their sexuality is expressed in the game itself. The elf prostitute that was voiced by Mark Meer was sexually developed. The husband who thought his wife was cheating on him also had a sexuality.

The Templar looking for the wife, however, was not sexually developed as far as I remember.

Plaintiff wrote...

 Seriously, someone tell me how we quantify a sexually developed being. I'm seriously concerned that I don't qualify. 

You're a human being. They're a character.

For a character, nothing exists save that which is expressed to the viewer/reader/player.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 juin 2013 - 09:09 .

[Plaintiff]

Is that all?

Well then who cares?

[Silfren]

Kulyok wrote...

To answer the original poster's question,

"How were the DA2 characters unbelievable, and how can this be blamed on their availability as LIs. For that matter, what about the bi characters from Origins? Were they better written, or were they equally watered down?"

I think that Merrill's ridiculous underwear and risque Hawke jokes(as opposed to her normal shy, bookish, awkward demeanor) seem to come out of the left field, but that might be just me.

Anders, too. He didn't make any advances on my attractive Warden-Commander, and suddenly he's bedding an ugly 60-year-old with a grey beard? Facepalm.

I really can't speak to Merrill, but in the case of Anders, this strikes me as being more about you personally thinking one character is visually appealing to you, and the other less so.  That's not really got anything to do with the characters or the relationships being poorly written.  Different people find different things aesthetically pleasing, but this has no bearing on what is or isn't plausible.

My problem is that I've never seen any of this love, care and loyalty in bisexual folks of DA/DA2. Leliana leaves her lover for... new adventures? Service to the Chantry? And she seems to stand against the mages - the case the Warden _might_ hold dear. Isabela betrays Hawke, Fenris leaves Hawke, Zevran possibly betrays the Warden and certainly cheats on the Warden(thanks to a small bug nobody cared to correct in DA2).

It's all nice and well and I certainly believe that betrayals and partings and greater causes are relevant, but to me it only adds to a "bisexual DA/DA2 character = promiscuous, easy, not loyal, expect heartbreak and cheating". Again, it's only my impression.

I can see your point here, but this is more a case of the bisexual characters being written in a way that Bioware maybe doesn't realize forms a trend, rather than the overall quality of writing going into the crapper because having all-bi characters is lazy writing.  That said, though I can see your point, I can't really agree with the assumed conclusion, because all of the characters are well-defined such that the reasons for their behavior is altogether separate from their sexuality.  If DA2 had gone the same route as Origins and had a mix of orientations, rather than making them all inclusive, I'd be more inclined to agree, if it continued to be true that the same problems only arose with the bi characters, but since the LIs are intended to be playersexual, their behavior is clearly entirely separate from their sexuality.

Also, please don't bring up bugs.  By their very nature of being bugs they obviously don't constitute evidence of a pattern.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

 Seriously, someone tell me how we quantify a sexually developed being. I'm seriously concerned that I don't qualify. 

Um.  Did you go through puberty?  If so, I think you're probably safe.  Though if you want to be absolutely certain I think a trip to your GP might be a good idea.

Modifié par Silfren, 28 juin 2013 - 09:12 .

[Maria Caliban]

Plaintiff wrote...

Is that all?

Well then who cares?

I'd have to read through the entire conversation to guess at that and I refuse to subject myself to it at this time.

[Lennard Testarossa]

The biggest problem isn't that it makes characters feel bland and generic, it's that it makes the concept of romance itself feel bland and generic.

Back when they introduced romance in BG2, no one expected romance to be in the game, which is why it was possible for them to make the romances interesting. The romanceable characters were picky, the romances themselves often complicated. That's what made them fun.

Sadly, by including romances, they attracted the romance fanatics, for whom there is nothing more important than getting their dose of virtual love and sex. So all of a sudden, romances had to be in the game. And not only that, they had to be available to everyone, irregardless of the choices you make during character creation or the game.

All romanceable characters being bisexual (or playersexual) is simply the logical conclusion to that development. Everything has to be available to everyone because the romances are not something that is in any way a natural element to the story, but rather a necessary gimmick to please the romance fanatics.

[Maria Caliban]

The push to make LIs who are non-straight came from non-straight gamers. I wouldn't characterize them as 'romance fanatics.' Likewise, the game you're praising because the companions were 'picky,' BG 2, is also one where all the romances are opposite-gender.

[Silfren]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

The biggest problem isn't that it makes characters feel bland and generic, it's that it makes the concept of romance itself feel bland and generic.

Back when they introduced romance in BG2, no one expected romance to be in the game, which is why it was possible for them to make the romances interesting. The romanceable characters were picky, the romances themselves often complicated. That's what made them fun.

Sadly, by including romances, they attracted the romance fanatics, for whom there is nothing more important than getting their dose of virtual love and sex. So all of a sudden, romances had to be in the game. And not only that, they had to be available to everyone, irregardless of the choices you make during character creation or the game.

All romanceable characters being bisexual (or playersexual) is simply the logical conclusion to that development. Everything has to be available to everyone because the romances are not something that is in any way a natural element to the story, but rather a necessary gimmick to please the romance fanatics.

Okay, it really needs to be said that there is a WORLD of difference between all the LIs being playersexual/bisexual, and LIs being willing to romance the PC regardless of the PCs decisions.  The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I completely agree that it is utterly bizarre that an LI would continue to romance a PC who made decisions that the LI, as written, would find abhorrent, and this is something that Bioware needs to work on.  It is totally acceptable that we should have a system whereby the PC can actually get locked out of certain romances depending on the choices made by the player.

But I do not believe for a moment that not having this is the fault of having inclusive LIs no matter the gender you choose in CC.  There's been no evidence given to support this, it's all just been speculation.  It's very late and I'm tired but your post reads more to me like you simply don't like the romance content and resent the "romance fanatics" for forcing its inclusion.

[Cheylus]

I'm glad you can choose and/or play different sexual orientations in Dragon Age and video games, however I wonder what is sexuality in those games itself. Sexuality is a good part of what a person is, yet it is not really a part of Thedas' plot. It is non-problematic, it doesn't make me question my beliefs, values or principles. Well, for me it's bland and bland as it is, it has nothing to do in Dragon Age as a role-playing game. 

Well, first I like to play RPGs because it places me in front of a question/situation/context and I have to answer it by myself as a person or a role. For me, RPG is not about "what I want" (this mostly leads to people feeling entitled imo) but "what can I choose in an unique world" (this leads to make the world richer and original - and, ultimately, I also think it can make a player smarter). 

I like what was done in Mass Effect, you really had to think about sexuality as a theme in this world: Krogan and their infertility (come on, it's even one of the biggest part of the plot!), Asaris as hermaphrodites and their views on "pure blood", inter-species relationships and sexual relationships, Aardat-Yakshis, Joker & EDI...
That was very interesting and made the galaxy BioWare depicted a lot more plausible and deep. We're also in a future where medical procreation seems possible, and where diseases like AIDS or every STD don't exist anymore (I'm not really sure about Quarians). Nobody cares if people are hetero or homosexual because, well, it's the future and people get smarter. It seems natural. Apart from those non-problematic themes, you've still added problematic sexual themes and it felt very good and mature ; it mixes perfectly into the lore. 
Overall, that's writing and BioWare at their best. It was convincing, cleverly and - most of the time subtly - done. 

In Thedas, a medieval fantasy setting, I can't remember if I've seen medical facilities (only the one maintained by Anders), and people still rely on prayers to solve their problems and be cured. I also have to say I hated brothels in Dragon Age, this is such a tasteless, ugly and unfunny bad move imo. So basically, I can't take that as an advanced civilisation.

You can't pretend homosexuality and heterosexuality is "easy" on Thedas when the most powerful people of this world (Flemeth and Alistair if he becomes king) needs to procreate "not as a person but as a king or a witch". Your character is not able to romance Alistair as a man, but you wouldn't have a happy life with him either because, as a king, he needs to marry a woman. It's also true for any potential king or queen of Thedas if their kingdoms follows the same medieval-like rules as Ferelden. And Flemeth needs daughters. Morrigan also "needs" a child at the end of DA:O, therefore needs a man. Even darkspawn (with no feminine figure, the broodmother apart) need women.
There is also rape if I can remember, always men trying to rape women in captivity (female mages and male templars, female city elf and male soldiers, and darkspawn, still the same); and sex inequalities in certain cultures. So there is actually potential issues with sexual orientation, gender and even sexuality per se in Dragon Age. Yet nothing is told and detailed; this made Thedas incomplete and generic to me. Sexuality in other medieval fantasy video games/settings such as The Witcher or GRR Martin's works is more complex and, therefore, credible (I'm not here to discuss about them, if you disagree inform yourself). 
I can't remember any "sexual theme" - and it doesn't have to be limited to sexual orientation - in Dragon Age with a strong link to the general plot. But maybe it's my memory (I was more thrilled by ME than by DA to be honest). 

Modifié par Cheylus, 28 juin 2013 - 10:11 .