1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Anders is the worst written character in DA2 followed only by Merrill, his best bit in the whole game is when you get to kill him.

I like the part where he murders that harmless mage and freaks out.

Then decides he might as well martyr her and blame everyone else for it

Oh, he does that? Wow.

He even tries to go to her funeral Aveline rightfully bites his head off for it.

Bad enough to kill the girl why try to desecrate her funeral?

[Silfren]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Anders is the worst written character in DA2 followed only by Merrill, his best bit in the whole game is when you get to kill him.

I like the part where he murders that harmless mage and freaks out.

Then decides he might as well martyr her and blame everyone else for it

Oh, he does that? Wow.

He does nothing of the sort; that's not at all the way that scene goes down, and he DOES blame himself and feel relentless guilt about it afterwards.

[lxwkl31]

Statare wrote...

I think you are on to something. We have all these explicit or implicit ways the story might address LGBTQ issues. Cultures in Thedas varry on how they view non-heterosexuality, it is a strucural componant of the plot the writers want to explore. Yet, outside of LIs, LGBTQ issues are either not explored or are only implicit. For instance, Vicount Dumar's son may (or may not) have been involved physically with a male Qunari. All the interesting implications of this are explored in vague details. Which reflects the constraints of the setting (Dumar's son might feel doubly uncomfortable talking about the trist because double taboo (with a male and a heathen)). Even so it remained under-developed and missable.

In general all these elements of the setting that affect LGBTQ characters, from NPCs to LIs to the player's character (should it be LGBTQ) remain under-developed and left to the extreme periphery of the story. Some characters, like Merrill or a Dalish/ Dwarf Noble/Human Noble/ Qunari character who experience same-sex attraction or non-normative sexualties would be directly affected by these cultural views on sexuality in Thedas and  it would make sense for them to actually talk about the subject, even outside of a LI plot.

As a rule in the games, LGBTQ issues are confined to the plot of a LI, while a lot of 'straight' issues are explicitly explored by various NPCs and often times the player character gets directly involved with their stories, while LGBTQ NPCs are absent or not developed in the same way. There are so many quests where you help some feuding / developing straight romance, but only a handful where LGBTQ characters are even present, and if they are it is by assumption (Wade and Herren).

I was extremely disappointed with this story. Throughout that quest I kept getting the vibe that these two were together and thought that was great! But the game never made it explicitly known and that's one of the main frustrations I have with Bioware. They have consistently stated that they value diversity and inclusion of all types but when opportunities such as these (Dumar's son, Wade and Herren) arise, they're left to "interpretation". Sure, there was Branka and Hespith but that ended horribly (Bury Your Gays Trope, often present). 

What I want from DA:I is to see happy same-sex couples. Couples that just happen to be gay. However, given the nature of the game's story, "happy" may be a stretch. I guess I just want visibility, a presence in the game that isn't reduced to interpretation in order to have it.  

[Hellion Rex]

Ryzaki wrote...

He even tries to go to her funeral Aveline rightfully bites his head off for it.

Bad enough to kill the girl why try to desecrate her funeral?

Ryzaki, that doesn't happen. There was no funeral for Ella. 

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He even tries to go to her funeral Aveline rightfully bites his head off for it.

Bad enough to kill the girl why try to desecrate her funeral?

Ryzaki, that doesn't happen. There was no funeral for Ella. 

It's in the party banter.

^ Aveline and Anders after the girl is dead.

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He even tries to go to her funeral Aveline rightfully bites his head off for it.

Bad enough to kill the girl why try to desecrate her funeral?

Ryzaki, that doesn't happen. There was no funeral for Ella. 

Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?

Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.

Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.

Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin.

Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

[Silfren]

Kallimachus wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

For 2  the lack of heir is only a problem is the kingship is hereditary and there is no rules of succession for a line without issue.

So if Orlais empire is like the Roman Germanic Empire the emperor is elected by the Great electors.
or if Orlais follows the western medieval Europe customs, if there is no heir the crown, the crown will go to a brother or sister of the current monarch. 
There is no problem

Phil

Theoretically you might be right, but if you look at who was actually elected to be Holy Roman Emperor, you'll discover that by an enormous majority most of them came from one hereditary family - the Habsburgs.

And while it is true that a king's sibling (or cousin) could inherit the throne, if you look at European history you'll discover that such transitions were VERY often far from smooth and very often contested. And so for stability's sake, the monarch is almost always under pressure to bring forth an heir.

There seems to be a question about whether noble and royal families would object to their progeny, or at least their assumed heirs, being homosexual on the grounds of providing more heirs to the family line.

I have to point out that being gay in no way, shape, or form renders a person infertile.  Absolutely nothing about being gay or taking on same-gender lovers indicates that a person would be unable to procreate.  Since Thedas is already presented to us as a setting which is not hostile to non-heterosexuality, I think it's quite reasonable to conclude from those two facts that it would simply be the norm that such noble children are expected to marry and provide legitimate heirs, but may otherwise do as they please.  It's already a demonstrable practice, in the real world and within Thedas, for a monarch to take an appropriate person as their consort for purposes of state, while taking on someone else as their "real" lover.  Sometimes it's considered a scandal to hide behind closed doors if not to avoid entirely; other times it's just assumed that hey, monarchs are gonna do what monarchs're gonna do.  This applies to any situation in which the monarch's preferred lover is inappropriate for marriage, same-gender or no.

I think in the case of Orlais, Celene probably doesn't give two sh*ts what her counselors think, or anyone else.  Don't forget that she herself did not inherit the throne.  And, again, she might be under pressure to produce an heir, that has nothing to do with anyone pressuring her to reject women as lovers, just for her to make sure she gets herself pregnant with a legitimate heir (following whatever Orlesian rules of royal legitimacy might be) in the meantime.

[Silfren]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Statare wrote...

I think you are on to something. We have all these explicit or implicit ways the story might address LGBTQ issues. Cultures in Thedas varry on how they view non-heterosexuality, it is a strucural componant of the plot the writers want to explore. Yet, outside of LIs, LGBTQ issues are either not explored or are only implicit. For instance, Vicount Dumar's son may (or may not) have been involved physically with a male Qunari. All the interesting implications of this are explored in vague details. Which reflects the constraints of the setting (Dumar's son might feel doubly uncomfortable talking about the trist because double taboo (with a male and a heathen)). Even so it remained under-developed and missable.

In general all these elements of the setting that affect LGBTQ characters, from NPCs to LIs to the player's character (should it be LGBTQ) remain under-developed and left to the extreme periphery of the story. Some characters, like Merrill or a Dalish/ Dwarf Noble/Human Noble/ Qunari character who experience same-sex attraction or non-normative sexualties would be directly affected by these cultural views on sexuality in Thedas and  it would make sense for them to actually talk about the subject, even outside of a LI plot.

As a rule in the games, LGBTQ issues are confined to the plot of a LI, while a lot of 'straight' issues are explicitly explored by various NPCs and often times the player character gets directly involved with their stories, while LGBTQ NPCs are absent or not developed in the same way. There are so many quests where you help some feuding / developing straight romance, but only a handful where LGBTQ characters are even present, and if they are it is by assumption (Wade and Herren).

I was extremely disappointed with this story. Throughout that quest I kept getting the vibe that these two were together and thought that was great! But the game never made it explicitly known and that's one of the main frustrations I have with Bioware. They have consistently stated that they value diversity and inclusion of all types but when opportunities such as these (Dumar's son, Wade and Herren) arise, they're left to "interpretation". Sure, there was Branka and Hespith but that ended horribly (Bury Your Gays Trope, often present). 

What I want from DA:I is to see happy same-sex couples. Couples that just happen to be gay. However, given the nature of the game's story, "happy" may be a stretch. I guess I just want visibility, a presence in the game that isn't reduced to interpretation in order to have it.  

I think you both are overlooking that sex is seen as a means to an end within Qunari culture, and that means is to produce children.  It doesn't appear to be the case that the Qunari value sex for recreational activity at all. That being the case, I see no subtext at all in any of Seamus's scenes about the Qunari that would be suggestive enough to override Qunari perceptions of the purpose of intercourse--and if there was sufficient subtext, it would need to be explained within the context of the Qun why it was considered necessary. 

In this situation I think the very reason why Bioware wouldn't have made it explicitly known is simply because you are seeing what isn't there. 

Edit:  I just want to clarify that I do agree that there should be greater vsibility of LGBT persons in the games, and not just as a potential LI, because all the things you both have mentioned are true.  By relegating most of its LGBT content to that which is available by interpretation only, Bioware is simply following the same mainstream trend of queer-baiting, more or less. 

I think this changing, albeit at a glacial pace.  We have Celene's taking of an elf woman for her lover, and the aforementioned relationship between Branka and Hespith, as well as the brief (and problematic!) reference to the seneschal's date with a transperson, as well as Maevaris in the comics.  I would definitely prefer to see relationships that are more up front.  Doing that would amount to nothing more than giving such relationships the same non-issue status as heteronormative ones.  As I've referenced elsewhere, there is no reason why Meredith could not have openly had a woman for her lover, or even why Varric's Bianca couldn't have been Benicio.  Such relationships wouldn't be any more central to the plot than that of the relationship between Ghyslain and his estranged wife, but they would definitely serve to provide more visibility--especially if they weren't slapped with the same hugely problematic tropes such relationships typically get.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[Senya]

Indeed. I never really got that it was sexual in nature either. We were given no clues other than people mocking Seamus with the implication. It is sad that people assume you cannot have a deep friendship with someone without being lovers.

[Angrywolves]

Anders was retconned from what he had been in Awakening and shoehorned into his DA2 role. They did something similar to Merrill.
Wasn't good planning, motivated in part by EA rushing Bioware or good implementation with the writing . shrugs.

[Ianamus]

Silfren wrote...

I think you both are overlooking that sex is seen as a means to an end within Qunari culture, and that means is to produce children.  It doesn't appear to be the case that the Qunari value sex for recreational activity at all. That being the case, I see no subtext at all in any of Seamus's scenes about the Qunari that would be suggestive enough to override Qunari perceptions of the purpose of intercourse--and if there was sufficient subtext, it would need to be explained within the context of the Qun why it was considered necessary.  

In this situation I think the very reason why Bioware wouldn't have made it explicitly known is simply because you are seeing what isn't there.  

Yes but only one of them was actually a Qunari. I was always of the opinion that while the Viscounts son found it all interesting and idealistic he was also swayed into it because he was in love with a Qunari. Whether or not it was a physical or purely emotional love and whether it was reciprocated or not is questionable though. 

It's definately not "seeing what isn't there" though. David gaider himself has said that it was deliberately implied:

"It's not something that comes up because it's private-- and also because there are no terms that exist in that era. In our own history, the need to study and categorize sexuality didn't come about until the late 19th century... prior to that, it wasn't even a concept. The act was considered far more relevant than the impulse. So when it comes up outside of the player's personal experience, it's going to be either vague or implied (such as Wade & Herren, Branka & Hespith or the Viscount's son)."

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 06:46 .

[Silfren]

EJ107 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I think you both are overlooking that sex is seen as a means to an end within Qunari culture, and that means is to produce children.  It doesn't appear to be the case that the Qunari value sex for recreational activity at all. That being the case, I see no subtext at all in any of Seamus's scenes about the Qunari that would be suggestive enough to override Qunari perceptions of the purpose of intercourse--and if there was sufficient subtext, it would need to be explained within the context of the Qun why it was considered necessary.  

In this situation I think the very reason why Bioware wouldn't have made it explicitly known is simply because you are seeing what isn't there.  

Yes but only one of them was actually a Qunari. I was always of the opinion that while the Viscounts son found it all interesting and idealistic he was also swayed into it because he was in love with a Qunari. Whether or not it was a physical or purely emotional love and whether it was reciprocated or not is questionable though. 

It's definately not "seeing what isn't there" though. David gaider himself has said that it was deliberately implied:

"It's not something that comes up because it's private-- and also because there are no terms that exist in that era. In our own history, the need to study and categorize sexuality didn't come about until the late 19th century... prior to that, it wasn't even a concept. The act was considered far more relevant than the impulse. So when it comes up outside of the player's personal experience, it's going to be either vague or implied (such as Wade & Herren, Branka & Hespith or the Viscount's son)."

Oh, well then I stand corrected.   I had thought you referred to a reciprocal relationship between the two, which I still think is not at all the case given what we know about Qunari lore, but I could definitely see Seamus himself as having a crush on his Qunari mentor, as it were.

I added to my original comment because I was afraid I might give the impression that I'm okay with LGBT content being relegated to side content that only exists through interpretation, and I don't advocate for such a thing at all. 

[lxwkl31]

Silfren wrote...

Edit:  I just want to clarify that I do agree that there should be greater vsibility of LGBT persons in the games, and not just as a potential LI, because all the things you both have mentioned are true.  By relegating most of its LGBT content to that which is available by interpretation only, Bioware is simply following the same mainstream trend of queer-baiting, more or less. 

I think this changing, albeit at a glacial pace.  We have Celene's taking of an elf woman for her lover, and the aforementioned relationship between Branka and Hespith, as well as the brief (and problematic!) reference to the seneschal's date with a transperson, as well as Maevaris in the comics.  I would definitely prefer to see relationships that are more up front.  Doing that would amount to nothing more than giving such relationships the same non-issue status as heteronormative ones.  As I've referenced elsewhere, there is no reason why Meredith could not have openly had a woman for her lover, or even why Varric's Bianca couldn't have been Benicio.  Such relationships wouldn't be any more central to the plot than that of the relationship between Ghyslain and his estranged wife, but they would definitely serve to provide more visibility--especially if they weren't slapped with the same hugely problematic tropes such relationships typically get.

 OMG... Don't even mention Serendipity..  I never read the comics, was Maervaris revealed to be trans in the comic or was it announced by Gaider or something? I've heard some good things about her though!

[Thomas Andresen]

I never read the comics, was Maervaris revealed to be trans in the comic or was it announced by Gaider or something? I've heard some good things about her though!

I didn't read the comics either, but if I recall correctly, Gaider only confirmed it. Which would mean that it's at least implied in the comics, if not explicitly mentioned.

[Kallimachus]

Silfren wrote...

There seems to be a question about whether noble and royal families would object to their progeny, or at least their assumed heirs, being homosexual on the grounds of providing more heirs to the family line.

I have to point out that being gay in no way, shape, or form renders a person infertile.  Absolutely nothing about being gay or taking on same-gender lovers indicates that a person would be unable to procreate.  Since Thedas is already presented to us as a setting which is not hostile to non-heterosexuality, I think it's quite reasonable to conclude from those two facts that it would simply be the norm that such noble children are expected to marry and provide legitimate heirs, but may otherwise do as they please.  It's already a demonstrable practice, in the real world and within Thedas, for a monarch to take an appropriate person as their consort for purposes of state, while taking on someone else as their "real" lover.  Sometimes it's considered a scandal to hide behind closed doors if not to avoid entirely; other times it's just assumed that hey, monarchs are gonna do what monarchs're gonna do.  This applies to any situation in which the monarch's preferred lover is inappropriate for marriage, same-gender or no.

I think in the case of Orlais, Celene probably doesn't give two sh*ts what her counselors think, or anyone else.  Don't forget that she herself did not inherit the throne.  And, again, she might be under pressure to produce an heir, that has nothing to do with anyone pressuring her to reject women as lovers, just for her to make sure she gets herself pregnant with a legitimate heir (following whatever Orlesian rules of royal legitimacy might be) in the meantime.

We are all well aware that gay people are not sterile. Some of us are gay people. But that is irrelevant to the point. We are not talking about a Western Bourgois Family. We are talking about aristocratic and monarchistic ideologies amd ,imdset. And in that context, illegitimate children are a problem, and are dubious heirs even in the best of circumstance. Take Alistair for example - even though he was the elder son, he was hidden away, removed from the line of succession in favour of his younger, legitimate sibling. And even after he remained the only blood heir to the royal house, his succession is far from certain, and in more than one circumstance he fails to attain the throne completely.

As for having to keep a same sex (or other) lover hidden, try reading Christopher Marlowe's Edward II (a play based on history), to see how that turns out. And if Celene doesn't care what people think, then she's a very bad politician, and as such has no business ruling a country.

[Kallimachus]

lxwkl31 wrote...
 OMG... Don't even mention Serendipity..  I never read the comics, was Maervaris revealed to be trans in the comic or was it announced by Gaider or something? I've heard some good things about her though!

It's not said outright in the comics, and some people missed it at first, but there's a panel in which Maevaris is discovered in a dungeon, having been kidnapped and tortured by the main villain in the story. In that picture her blouse is torn, exposing her chest, which is... well... a male chest. It's not extremely male, which is why it's not hard to miss. It was a very subtle way of announcing her gender identity.

[Bhaal]

Not to forget once others learn that the heir is gay they simply deny that his childs are really his. There isn't DNA test in Thedas i think and i don't trust blood-mages to tell to truth those demon lovers, don't trust a mage papa always said!

[lxwkl31]

Kallimachus wrote...

It's not said outright in the comics, and some people missed it at first, but there's a panel in which Maevaris is discovered in a dungeon, having been kidnapped and tortured by the main villain in the story. In that picture her blouse is torn, exposing her chest, which is... well... a male chest. It's not extremely male, which is why it's not hard to miss. It was a very subtle way of announcing her gender identity.

Ahh. I'm not transgendered so I don't really know but to me that's a great improvement over past "attempts" at incorporating transgendered characters. I hope they bring her to Inquisition or introduce another trans character- just not at a brothel please.. 

[Hazegurl]

Plaintiff wrote...
 In any case, Anders will come clean, at least on the Friendship path. If a player opts for the Rivalry path then they only have themselves to blame for perceiving the relationship as abusive, because that's what they chose. If you're constantly telling Anders he's an inhuman monster who deserves to be locked in a spiky rape tower, you're no better than he is. 

As for emotional blackmail, I don't see anything like that. Anders' cause matters more to him than his own life. If you don't care about it, then of course he's going to extrapolate from that that you don't care about him[/b]. When he accuses you of not caring for him, that's not emotional blackmail; that's him expressing how he legitimately perceives the situation.

I never go to the chantry even at max friendship so I don't know if he ever comes clean. But I do know that he lies to you about the quest to begin with and then doesn't come clean when confronted on why he needs a distraction while he sneaks into the chantry. If you refuse his quest he will use emotional blackmail to get his way and yes emotional blackmail is most certainly one of the types of emotional abuse. Not saying you have to see it that way but it is also correct for someone to view his actions as emotional abuse. Outside of emotional blackmail he uses a tactic of accusing you of something that is simply contrived in his own mind. Another form of emotional abuse.

Also, I think its disgusting that he wants to attend that girl's funeral. The fact that he thinks he's entitled to do so shows just how screwed up he really is.

[Ianamus]

The noble families we've seen in Thedas usually have quite a few children, which makes sense, given the time period. If relationships with people of the same gender are not taboo I don't see why one of five or so children not marrying and producing offspring would be an issue.

I like the fact that Dragon Age doesn't throw in a boatload of real-life sexuality issues. We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality- it's a refreshing change of pace to have stories where characters are comfortable with their sexualitiy, their society has no issue with that and it's completely irrelevant to their struggles and story.

If we have a companion whose story arc is that their family cannot accept them because of their sexuality I would find it really off-putting. I much prefer a world where it doesn't matter and they have their own issues and life beyond what they are attracted to.

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Hazegurl]

lxwkl31 wrote...
I was extremely disappointed with this story. Throughout that quest I kept getting the vibe that these two were together and thought that was great! But the game never made it explicitly known and that's one of the main frustrations I have with Bioware. They have consistently stated that they value diversity and inclusion of all types but when opportunities such as these (Dumar's son, Wade and Herren) arise, they're left to "interpretation". Sure, there was Branka and Hespith but that ended horribly (Bury Your Gays Trope, often present). 

What I want from DA:I is to see happy same-sex couples. Couples that just happen to be gay[/i]. However, given the nature of the game's story, "happy" may be a stretch. I guess I just want visibility[/b], a presence in the game that isn't reduced to interpretation in order to have it.  

I don't know how the writers could have portrayed Wade and Herren. Were they supposed to say "We are gay lovers btw"

The only thing I can think of is to have the warden ask them. idk.  I do think they missed a good opportunity with Seamus and the Qunari. I think it would had been great if it was made clear that they were together.

[lxwkl31]

Hazegurl wrote...

I don't know how the writers could have portrayed Wade and Herren. Were they supposed to say "We are gay lovers btw"

The only thing I can think of is to have the warden ask them. idk.  I do think they missed a good opportunity with Seamus and the Qunari. I think it would had been great if it was made clear that they were together.

Well they couldn't say "gay" but totally!  They could have one of their little fights and Wade could say "Oh, Herren you treat me so horribly! Why do I love you?" Or something like that- I'm not a writer. 

[lxwkl31]

EJ107 wrote...

The noble families we've seen in Thedas usually have quite a few children, which makes sense, given the time period. If relationships with people of the same gender are not taboo I don't see why one of five or so children not marrying and producing offspring would be an issue.

I like the fact that Dragon Age doesn't throw in a boatload of real-life sexuality issues. We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality- it's a refreshing change of pace to have stories where characters are comfortable with their sexualitiy, their society has no issue with that and it's completely irrelevant to their struggles and story.

If we have a companion whose story arc is that their family cannot accept them because of their sexuality I would find it really off-putting. I much prefer a world where it doesn't matter and they have their own issues and life beyond what they are attracted to.

I agree with you in that I don't want a story with someone who's family doesn't accept them but I would like a story where someone is questioning their sexuality. It's not an "oh my god, I think I may be interested in someone of the same sex. What will people think?! How could this HAPPEN?!" but an exploration of sexuality. 

Something like this would be better suited during a romance arc, though IMO, and not the main game. 
 

[Lebanese Dude]

Hazegurl wrote...


The only thing I can think of is to have the warden ask them. idk.  I do think they missed a good opportunity with Seamus and the Qunari. I think it would had been great if it was made clear that they were together.

I didn't get that vibe from Saemus and the qunari fellow.

They were just friends.

Modifié par Lebdood, 01 décembre 2013 - 08:23 .