1981 réponses à ce sujet

[jncicesp]

EJ107 wrote...

The noble families we've seen in Thedas usually have quite a few children, which makes sense, given the time period. If relationships with people of the same gender are not taboo I don't see why one of five or so children not marrying and producing offspring would be an issue.

I like the fact that Dragon Age doesn't throw in a boatload of real-life sexuality issues. We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality- it's a refreshing change of pace to have stories where characters are comfortable with their sexualitiy, their society has no issue with that and it's completely irrelevant to their struggles and story.

If we have a companion whose story arc is that their family cannot accept them because of their sexuality I would find it really off-putting. I much prefer a world where it doesn't matter and they have their own issues and life beyond what they are attracted to.

I like this.  Would also say that it would be bothersome to me for the character to have some type of sexual type discovery thing as part of the romance... same sex or opposite. 

[Kallimachus]

EJ107 wrote...

The noble families we've seen in Thedas usually have quite a few children, which makes sense, given the time period. If relationships with people of the same gender are not taboo I don't see why one of five or so children not marrying and producing offspring would be an issue.

I like the fact that Dragon Age doesn't throw in a boatload of real-life sexuality issues. We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality- it's a refreshing change of pace to have stories where characters are comfortable with their sexualitiy, their society has no issue with that and it's completely irrelevant to their struggles and story.

If we have a companion whose story arc is that their family cannot accept them because of their sexuality I would find it really off-putting. I much prefer a world where it doesn't matter and they have their own issues and life beyond what they are attracted to.

Why would it make sense? In the parallel period on Earth 2 out of 3 children died before reaching the age of 3. Of course things can happen as you say, the noble parents can have 20 kids, and 4 of them would be gay and not have their own children. Sure. But where's the story in that? Story can only come about when there's some adversity to overcome. Which is why I presented scenarios with problems which can arise specifically from being gay. Would they arise for every gay person? Certainly not. But they will almost never arise to heterosexuals.

And "We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality"? Really? Could you point me to those games? Because I have not been able to find them... In both DA games we have had nearly 0 amount of LGBT related plotlines other than the actual main character romance. So how can it be "refreshing change of pace to have stories where characters are comfortable with their sexualitiy" when there is practically no such content?

And who said anything about "a companion whose story arc is that their family cannot accept them because of their sexuality"? In all of my examples the family doesn't care if their child is gay or not, they just put the good of the family/clan/nation above the good of the individual.

Ignoring all of the unique issues that come with being gay (even without homophobia), just means that LGBT people become invisible.

[Zeldrik1389]

Kallimachus wrote...

lxwkl31 wrote...
 OMG... Don't even mention Serendipity..  I never read the comics, was Maervaris revealed to be trans in the comic or was it announced by Gaider or something? I've heard some good things about her though!

It's not said outright in the comics, and some people missed it at first, but there's a panel in which Maevaris is discovered in a dungeon, having been kidnapped and tortured by the main villain in the story. In that picture her blouse is torn, exposing her chest, which is... well... a male chest. It's not extremely male, which is why it's not hard to miss. It was a very subtle way of announcing her gender identity.

I'm not sure it can be counted. I've seen a fair share of flat chest women, and it doesn't make them any less of a woman then one with big boobs. So she can be a woman, just not blessed with nice bossom like Wynne lol Also the way she was hanged actually make her chest look flatter so yeah, I think she's still a real woman.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 01 décembre 2013 - 08:30 .

[Kallimachus]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

I'm not sure it can be counted. I've seen a fair share of flat chest women, and it doesn't make them any less of a woman then one with big boobs. So she can be a woman, just not blessed with nice bossom like Wynne lol

Even the most flat chested of women has more of a chest than a skinny male. As for what can or cannot be counted, think as you wish, or read the actual comic. I just described the panel. :shrug:

Modifié par Kallimachus, 01 décembre 2013 - 08:32 .

[Afro_Explosion]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I don't know how the writers could have portrayed Wade and Herren. Were they supposed to say "We are gay lovers btw"

The only thing I can think of is to have the warden ask them. idk.  I do think they missed a good opportunity with Seamus and the Qunari. I think it would had been great if it was made clear that they were together.

Well they couldn't say "gay" but totally!  They could have one of their little fights and Wade could say "Oh, Herren you treat me so horribly! Why do I love you?" Or something like that- I'm not a writer. 

I think bioware did good with wade and herren, why should their sexuality have been mentioned.They're just two dudes working together who happen to be in a relationship.

[Hazegurl]

I agree, I liked them a lot and I didn't need to have their relationship broadcast for me to know. If Herren was a woman and they behaved the same way toward each other would anyone think their relationship should be told to them or what they simply assume and leave it at that?

[lxwkl31]

Don't get me wrong, I loved Wade and Herren as characters and I'm glad Bioware put them in! And I didn't NEED them to explicitly state they were together. I was just using them as an example of LGBTQ characters being left to interpretation. The only way we knew they were gay was through the use of stereotypes- Wade's feminine voice and their catty banter.

[Lebanese Dude]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I loved Wade and Herren as characters and I'm glad Bioware put them in! And I didn't NEED them to explicitly state they were together. I was just using them as an example of LGBTQ characters being left to interpretation. The only way we knew they were gay was through the use of stereotypes- Wade's feminine voice and their catty banter.

The catty banter is what all people in a relationship do...

At least the fun ones.

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
 In any case, Anders will come clean, at least on the Friendship path. If a player opts for the Rivalry path then they only have themselves to blame for perceiving the relationship as abusive, because that's what they chose. If you're constantly telling Anders he's an inhuman monster who deserves to be locked in a spiky rape tower, you're no better than he is. 

As for emotional blackmail, I don't see anything like that. Anders' cause matters more to him than his own life. If you don't care about it, then of course he's going to extrapolate from that that you don't care about him[/b]. When he accuses you of not caring for him, that's not emotional blackmail; that's him expressing how he legitimately perceives the situation.

I never go to the chantry even at max friendship so I don't know if he ever comes clean. But I do know that he lies to you about the quest to begin with and then doesn't come clean when confronted on why he needs a distraction while he sneaks into the chantry. If you refuse his quest he will use emotional blackmail to get his way and yes emotional blackmail is most certainly one of the types of emotional abuse. Not saying you have to see it that way but it is also correct for someone to view his actions as emotional abuse. Outside of emotional blackmail he uses a tactic of accusing you of something that is simply contrived in his own mind. Another form of emotional abuse.

Also, I think its disgusting that he wants to attend that girl's funeral. The fact that he thinks he's entitled to do so shows just how screwed up he really is.

At no point does Anders suggest that he feels entitled to attend her funeral.  Merely saying he wants to be there is not at all the same thing as feeling like he has a right to be.  I agree that it's kind of messed up for him to want to be there, but again, there's no indication of any sense of entitlement at play.

[Ianamus]

Kallimachus wrote...

And "We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality"? Really? Could you point me to those games? 

Almost every single homosexual or bisexual charcter in any Western Television show or movie. 

Kallimachus wrote...

Ignoring all of the unique issues that come with being gay (even without homophobia), just means that LGBT people become invisible.

What "unique issues"? Inability to have children? That's not unique to homosexual couples. 

The only "unique" problem to homosexuals specifically is homophobia.

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 09:03 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

lxwkl31 wrote...
I was extremely disappointed with this story. Throughout that quest I kept getting the vibe that these two were together and thought that was great! But the game never made it explicitly known and that's one of the main frustrations I have with Bioware. They have consistently stated that they value diversity and inclusion of all types but when opportunities such as these (Dumar's son, Wade and Herren) arise, they're left to "interpretation". Sure, there was Branka and Hespith but that ended horribly (Bury Your Gays Trope, often present). 

What I want from DA:I is to see happy same-sex couples. Couples that just happen to be gay[/i]. However, given the nature of the game's story, "happy" may be a stretch. I guess I just want visibility[/b], a presence in the game that isn't reduced to interpretation in order to have it.  

I don't know how the writers could have portrayed Wade and Herren. Were they supposed to say "We are gay lovers btw"

The only thing I can think of is to have the warden ask them. idk.  I do think they missed a good opportunity with Seamus and the Qunari. I think it would had been great if it was made clear that they were together.

The problem with Wade and Herren is that they're played as straight up stereotypes.  Give them "normal" voices and it's quite likely that very few people would notice.  They could quite easily have been portrayed as a couple in far more straightfoward way, without the Warden having to ask anything.  As it is, they are easily interpreted as not being a couple at all, due to the lack of any explicit mention or even strong hints.

As for the Qunari and Seamus, I have to say, again, that the rules of the Qun pretty much rule out them having been together.  There's a difference betwen Seamus being romantically interested in his Qunari friend, and the two of them being a couple.  Qunari culture seems to be pretty closed on the issue of having romantic attachments, and certainly on the subject of sexual relations for any other reason besides procreation.  So there was nothing to make clear on that front, except to have made Seamus's attraction more explicit.

[Afro_Explosion]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I loved Wade and Herren as characters and I'm glad Bioware put them in! And I didn't NEED them to explicitly state they were together. I was just using them as an example of LGBTQ characters being left to interpretation. The only way we knew they were gay was through the use of stereotypes- Wade's feminine voice and their catty banter.

I didn't notice they were gay until the devs confirmed, some straight people can be as dramatic as a drag show prom queen

[Silfren]

Kallimachus wrote...

And "We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality"? Really? Could you point me to those games?

I think all they meant was that there's enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality versus stories portraying LGBT persons who are quite comfortable with themselves.  I agree with that; I'd like to see more stories where genderqueer sexuality was treated as a giant non-issue in exactly the same way that heteronormative ones are.

[lxwkl31]

Silfren wrote...
The problem with Wade and Herren is that they're played as straight up stereotypes.  Give them "normal" voices and it's quite likely that very few people would notice.  They could quite easily have been portrayed as a couple in far more straightfoward way, without the Warden having to ask anything.  As it is, they are easily interpreted as not being a couple at all, due to the lack of any explicit mention or even strong hints.

As for the Qunari and Seamus, I have to say, again, that the rules of the Qun pretty much rule out them having been together.  There's a difference betwen Seamus being romantically interested in his Qunari friend, and the two of them being a couple.  Qunari culture seems to be pretty closed on the issue of having romantic attachments, and certainly on the subject of sexual relations for any other reason besides procreation.  So there was nothing to make clear on that front, except to have made Seamus's attraction more explicit.

I never really read up on the Qunari before so I didn't know how they treated romantic relationships, thanks for the info!  This changes everything  I still think Saemus had a thing for him, though. 

[Silfren]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

lxwkl31 wrote...
 OMG... Don't even mention Serendipity..  I never read the comics, was Maervaris revealed to be trans in the comic or was it announced by Gaider or something? I've heard some good things about her though!

It's not said outright in the comics, and some people missed it at first, but there's a panel in which Maevaris is discovered in a dungeon, having been kidnapped and tortured by the main villain in the story. In that picture her blouse is torn, exposing her chest, which is... well... a male chest. It's not extremely male, which is why it's not hard to miss. It was a very subtle way of announcing her gender identity.

I'm not sure it can be counted. I've seen a fair share of flat chest women, and it doesn't make them any less of a woman then one with big boobs. So she can be a woman, just not blessed with nice bossom like Wynne lol Also the way she was hanged actually make her chest look flatter so yeah, I think she's still a real woman.

Ignoring your implied assertion that if she were trans, she wouldn't be a "real" woman, no.  Gaider confirmed that she is a transperson, so this is not something which is up for debate. http://dgaider.tumbl...nder-characters

ETA: Some image links.

In this link, there's nothing about the way she's hanging that merely makes her "appear" flat-chested. 
http://images3.wikia...nis_Dungeon.png

Here's another one that makes it even more obvious:
http://i698.photobuc...zps378897c3.jpg

Note also, per Gaider's blog post, that the dungeon reveal was explicitly intended to indicate that Maevaris was a transgender woman.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Ianamus]

Silfren wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

And "We get more than enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality"? Really? Could you point me to those games?

I think all they meant was that there's enough stories of people struggling with their sexuality versus stories portraying LGBT persons who are quite comfortable with themselves.  I agree with that; I'd like to see more stories where genderqueer sexuality was treated as a giant non-issue in exactly the same way that heteronormative ones are.

Exactly. My favourite stories involving homosexual couples are ones where the fact they are both the same gender is irrelevant to the story and the conflict they face.

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

I agree, I liked them a lot and I didn't need to have their relationship broadcast for me to know. If Herren was a woman and they behaved the same way toward each other would anyone think their relationship should be told to them or what they simply assume and leave it at that?

That's kind of the problem.  Put a man and a woman together in the same situation, and most people will likely take it for granted that they are a couple, without any need to "broadcast" it.  However, the same is not true for two men UNLESS you write them as stereotypes.  If not for their voice acting, I can pretty much guarantee you tthat far more people would miss the subtext, and quite a lot would deny it existed until the Devs told them otherwise.

Beyond that, it's not a question of "needing" their relationship broadcast so much as just normalizing it.  Most interactions between male/female couples include more explicit indicators of being a couple than just implied hints at such.  But in the case of gay couples, especially of gay men, in most cases the trend is still to only play it as a subtle subtext of the sort which is vague enough that plausible deniability of any such relationship is easy.  There's a reason why it's known as queerbaiting.  I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 09:22 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

Modifié par Lebdood, 01 décembre 2013 - 09:48 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

Indeed, I agree. It is a very tricky and dangerous line for developers and other media to tread.

[Silfren]

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

By no means am I trying to privilege the portrayal of one over the other.  But I do think there's a problem with the
"catty queen"  stereotype being the default go-to portrayal, which typically IS privileged over others.  The fact is, it IS a stereotype, and it perpetuates the belief that that is the face of gay men.

The other problem is playing such men strictly for laughs.  I do think there's a definite case to be made for putting characters like Wade and Herren in as a gag, rather than portraying more such characters as people to be taken seriously. 

I'm completely unsure why Bioware should be praised for their portrayal of Wade and Herren though, since there was nothing about this scene which hasn't been done before.  They did NOTHING more than cater to the age-old stereotype.  What exactly about that deserves praise?  It wasn't new, or edgy, or courageous in any way. 

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

Indeed, I agree. It is a very tricky and dangerous line for developers and other media to tread.

I disagree completely. When the only homosexual male characters in the Dragon Age universe are giant "catty queens" there is an issue.

Besides,  personally I can't stand "catty queens", be they fictional or real. 

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:01 .

[Afro_Explosion]

But what if a "catty queen"turns out to be straight, just a person with a flamboyant personality. I think bioware could send the message that just because they act like what the media perceives as gay doesn't mean they are.

Modifié par mx_keep13, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:04 .

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

By no means am I trying to privilege the portrayal of one over the other.  But I do think there's a problem with the
"catty queen"  stereotype being the default go-to portrayal, which typically IS privileged over others.  The fact is, it IS a stereotype, and it perpetuates the belief that that is the face of gay men.

The other problem is playing such men strictly for laughs.  I do think there's a definite case to be made for putting characters like Wade and Herren in as a gag, rather than portraying more such characters as people to be taken seriously. 

I'm completely unsure why Bioware should be praised for their portrayal of Wade and Herren though, since there was nothing about this scene which hasn't been done before.  They did NOTHING more than cater to the age-old stereotype.  What exactly about that deserves praise?  It wasn't new, or edgy, or courageous in any way. 

Sil, this is just my own personal perspective as a gaymer: the first time I played Dragon Age, I had no clue that Wade and Herren were a couple or that they were gay. Granted, I thought there voices were a little "weird" but I didn't listen to them, and immediately think, "Oh, yeah. They are definitely gay." So I am not entirely sure that Bioware was necessarily playing them for laughs, other than their pretty hilarious relationship with one another.

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

Indeed, I agree. It is a very tricky and dangerous line for developers and other media to tread.

I disagree completely. When the only homosexual male characters in the Dragon Age universe are giant "catty queens" there is an issue.

Besides,  personally I can't stand "catty queens", be they fictional or real. 

That is your own personal issue to deal with.

[Hazegurl]

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.