1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I realize that Bioware has acknowledged the relationship between Wade and Herren, but again, if Bioware is willing to admit it after the fact, it raises the question of why they can't be bothered to be more straightforward about it instead of defaulting to stereotypes.

But what about gay guys who do fit the stereotype?

Your statement has an unfortunate implication that it is better to be "straight guy" rather than be a "catty queen".

What about the "catty queens" like Wade? 

BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

By no means am I trying to privilege the portrayal of one over the other.  But I do think there's a problem with the
"catty queen"  stereotype being the default go-to portrayal, which typically IS privileged over others.  The fact is, it IS a stereotype, and it perpetuates the belief that that is the face of gay men.

The other problem is playing such men strictly for laughs.  I do think there's a definite case to be made for putting characters like Wade and Herren in as a gag, rather than portraying more such characters as people to be taken seriously. 

I'm completely unsure why Bioware should be praised for their portrayal of Wade and Herren though, since there was nothing about this scene which hasn't been done before.  They did NOTHING more than cater to the age-old stereotype.  What exactly about that deserves praise?  It wasn't new, or edgy, or courageous in any way. 

Sil, this is just my own personal perspective as a gaymer: the first time I played Dragon Age, I had no clue that Wade and Herren were a couple or that they were gay. Granted, I thought there voices were a little "weird" but I didn't listen to them, and immediately think, "Oh, yeah. They are definitely gay." So I am not entirely sure that Bioware was necessarily playing them for laughs, other than their pretty hilarious relationship with one another.

I didn't think they were a couple either, until it was confirmed later.   I've known a couple of extremely flamboyant men who were straight as boards, so I've learned never to take it for granted as a given indicator that a person is gay. But I won't pretend that I didn't notice the stereotypical voices and wonder immediately if that wasn't exactly the impression Bioware was going for.

However, I don't see much profit in denying that such "flamboyant" characteristics are used as short-hand in media to broadcast "this person is gay,"  and that this is something we should be trying to move away from, not to embrace.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:11 .

[lxwkl31]

Really? The second I heard Wade speak my gaydar pinged immediately. My problem is essentially every gay person in the game was built on stereotypes. Wade, Zevran being the promiscuous bisexual, Branka being the butch warrior, Serendipity there only for a cheap laugh in a brothel.

In the gay community, there's our own discrimination between the "catty queens" and the "straigh-acting" gay guys. I, personally, do not have a problem with feminine gay people. But when they're consistently the only form of representation of strictly gay men, I get frustrated.

Modifié par lxwkl31, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:13 .

[Ianamus]

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship. It's also a problem because Wade and Herren are (At least I'm 99% sure they are) the only homosexual characters we've seen in the Dragon age series. Or at least the only charcters who are depicted as being homosexual. All of the other male charcters who were interested in other men and weren't stereotypically camp were bisexual. 

I wouldn't mind it if we had a Steve Cortez or Samatha Traynor to balance it out, or another NPC couple who were strongly hinted at being in a relationship but didn't act that way. But I'm pretty sure we don't. 

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[JerZey CJ]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

[Hellion Rex]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

That is what I am saying. It is a pretty good thing.

[Maria Caliban]

EJ107 wrote...

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship.

The Calling had a gay male couple who were Grey Wardens. They were not 'camp.'

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line.[/b] I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

For me, I realized it when I dropped off scales for the second armor.  But before then I was shipping them anyway. I love those two.

[Ianamus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship.

The Calling had a gay male couple who were Grey Wardens. They were not 'camp.'

That's good. 

Like with Maevaris though, I wish this was something portrayed in the actual games rather than side material with a more limited audience. To be clear: the point of this isn't to moan about what Bioware has done, but what I would like to see them inculde in Inquisition.

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:23 .

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship. It's also a problem because Wade and Herren are (At least I'm 99% sure they are) the only homosexual characters we've seen in the Dragon age series. Or at least the only charcters who are depicted as being homosexual. All of the other male charcters who were interested in other men and weren't stereotypically camp were bisexual. 

I wouldn't mind it if we had a Steve Cortez or Samatha Traynor to balance it out, or another NPC couple who were strongly hinted at being in a relationship but didn't act that way. But I'm pretty sure we don't. 

I disagree on that front (the bolded), because I as a gaymer didn't know that they were gay when I first played Dragon Age. As a result of that, it doesn't necessarily mean they are seen as a camp stereotype to everyone. I still think they are merely eccentric, not necessarily flamboyant. That is just my own take on the matter.

Modifié par eluvianix, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[Silfren]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

A point is being missed, here. You can broadcast that two men are a couple WITHOUT waving neon signs screaming that they are gay, whether those signs are stereotypes or otherwise. Opposite-gender couples do it all the time.  The fact that people seem to be overlooking the possibility speaks volumes.

Nobody is suggesting that Wade and Herren should have announced to the Warden, "Hullo friend! Welcome to my Gay Parlor.  I am gay, and this is my gay lover.  We are gay together." 

However, the dialogue could EASILY have been written to make it clear that they were lovers without bashing anyone's head in with declarations of gaydy mcgayderson; again, opposite-gender couples do this all the time.  Why does it beggar the imagination to think that same-gender couples could do the same?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

A point is being missed, here. You can broadcast that two men are a couple WITHOUT waving neon signs screaming that they are gay, whether those signs are stereotypes or otherwise. Opposite-gender couples do it all the time.  The fact that people seem to be overlooking the possibility speaks volumes.

Nobody is suggesting that Wade and Herren should have announced to the Warden, "Hullo friend! Welcome to my Gay Parlor.  I am gay, and this is my gay lover.  We are gay together." 

However, the dialogue could EASILY have been written to make it clear that they were lovers without bashing anyone's head in with declarations of gaydy mcgayderson; again, opposite-gender couples do this all the time.  Why does it beggar the imagination to think that same-gender couples could do the same?

However, not everybody is getting hit by the "neon signs". I saw no signs, stereotypes or otherwise, to tell me that they were gay. I had no freaking clue until a developer had to make that information known.
While they may have been stereotypical to you personally, doesn't necessarily mean they were and are for everyone else.

Modifié par eluvianix, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship. It's also a problem because Wade and Herren are (At least I'm 99% sure they are) the only homosexual characters we've seen in the Dragon age series. Or at least the only charcters who are depicted as being homosexual. All of the other male charcters who were interested in other men and weren't stereotypically camp were bisexual. 

I wouldn't mind it if we had a Steve Cortez or Samatha Traynor to balance it out, or another NPC couple who were strongly hinted at being in a relationship but didn't act that way. But I'm pretty sure we don't. 

I disagree on that front (the bolded), because I as a gaymer didn't know that they were gay when I first played Dragon Age. As a result of that, it doesn't necessarily mean they are seen as a camp stereotype to everyone. I still think they are merely eccentric, not necessarily flamboyant. That is just my own take on the matter.

I'm sorry, but have you listened to them in Awekening?



The second comment on that video ends with "Wade & Herren sound gay....." and honestly I couldn't put it more simply myself. I would slap a "stereotypically" before the 'gay' though. 

Modifié par EJ107, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I do see a problem with the fact that the only confirmed NPC male/male relationship in the series relies on camp sterotypes to get across that they are in a relationship. It's also a problem because Wade and Herren are (At least I'm 99% sure they are) the only homosexual characters we've seen in the Dragon age series. Or at least the only charcters who are depicted as being homosexual. All of the other male charcters who were interested in other men and weren't stereotypically camp were bisexual. 

I wouldn't mind it if we had a Steve Cortez or Samatha Traynor to balance it out, or another NPC couple who were strongly hinted at being in a relationship but didn't act that way. But I'm pretty sure we don't. 

I disagree on that front (the bolded), because I as a gaymer didn't know that they were gay when I first played Dragon Age. As a result of that, it doesn't necessarily mean they are seen as a camp stereotype to everyone. I still think they are merely eccentric, not necessarily flamboyant. That is just my own take on the matter.

I'm sorry, but have you listened to them in Akaening?



The second comment on that video ends with "Wade & Herren sound gay....."

Yes. I have played DA:O and Awakening several times each, and they didn't sound "gay" to me.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I have to agree that I didn't find Wade and Herren to be a problem in how they are presented. Yes, they are a bit campy, which plays into stereotypes, but the team has done a good job of having representation from all four of the LGBT letters in their games. While I would like to see a Steve Cortez-esque character (gay - as in only available for male PCs - and not a camp stereotype), I have to say that I personally think that bisexual male love interests have been pretty varied in their representation (Zevran is promiscuous and flirty; Anders is emotional and obsessive; Fenris is distant and brooding).

I would love it if the DA team took a page from the ME team and did some exclusively gay characters. I think that they have done a fantastic job with the character writing (despite what others may say), so I think that they would do a pretty great job with this. I'm just not sure that this is going to happen with DA: I.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

A point is being missed, here. You can broadcast that two men are a couple WITHOUT waving neon signs screaming that they are gay, whether those signs are stereotypes or otherwise. Opposite-gender couples do it all the time.  The fact that people seem to be overlooking the possibility speaks volumes.

Nobody is suggesting that Wade and Herren should have announced to the Warden, "Hullo friend! Welcome to my Gay Parlor.  I am gay, and this is my gay lover.  We are gay together." 

However, the dialogue could EASILY have been written to make it clear that they were lovers without bashing anyone's head in with declarations of gaydy mcgayderson; again, opposite-gender couples do this all the time.  Why does it beggar the imagination to think that same-gender couples could do the same?

However, not everybody is getting hit by the "neon signs". I saw no signs, stereotypes or otherwise, to tell me that they were gay. I had no freaking clue until a developer had to make that information known.
While they may have been stereotypical to you personally, doesn't necessarily mean they were and are for everyone else.

Well, my point was mostly in reference to the ideas in this thread that 1) it's okay to portray gay couples as stereotypes and leave it completely unsaid so that people may apply their own interpretations, and 2) that if you don't do that, the only other option must be to "announce" them as gay. 

I don't know what to tell you as far as you not seeing the stereotype.  The way Wade and Herren were portrayed IS a stereotype, and an obvious one, full stop, and one that is far more common than any other portrayal.

What I'm saying is that Wade and Herren could have been obviously depicted as a romantic couple without such a stereotypical portrayal, and without the phrase "I'm gay" every once being uttered.  Once again, this is done with opposite-gender couples easily and often.  In fact, simply doing this, and allowing such couples to be depicted in exactly the normal, typical, totally non-issue way that straight couples are, would go a looooooong way toward normalizing such depictions.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:37 .

[daveliam]

Silfren wrote...

Well, my point was mostly in reference to the ideas in this thread that 1) it's okay to portray gay couples as stereotypes and leave it completely unsaid so that people may apply their own interpretations, and 2) that if you don't do that, the only other option must be to "announce" them as gay. 
who
I don't know what to tell you as far as you not seeing the stereotype.  The way Wade and Herren were portrayed IS a stereotype, and an obvious one, full stop, and one that is far more common than any other portrayal.

What I'm saying is that Wade and Herren could have been obviously depicted as a romantic couple without the phrase "I'm gay" every once being uttered.  Once again, this is done with opposite-gender couples easily and often.  In fact, simply doing this, and allowing such couples to be depicted in exactly the normal, typical, totally non-issue way that straight couples are, would go a looooooong way toward normalizing such depictions.

I agree with you on this point.  There's something pretty interesting around this, though, which is the fact that without the neon sign and/or declaration of gaeity, many people will explain away the relationship as something else. 

For example, in the game State of Decay, there is a main character who is obviously gay.  You are sent to rescue him from some zombies and when you show up, he's there with another guy.  The dialogue (that happens over the zombie killing action) makes it clear that the two of them are concerned about one another.  Then, when the conversation happens in the cut scene, it's very clear (at least to me) that the two men are in a relationship.  They act exactly as any other couple would in the situation, but never explicitly state it in the dialogue.  Later in the game, there are several scenes where the guy who becomes part of your group discusses his boyfriend with other characters.  Again, he never flat out says that he's in a relationship with them, but it's plainly the intent.  In fact, one throwaway line in the main character's joural refers to "Jacob and his boyfriend", but that's easy to miss unless you read all of the entries.

The reason why I bring it up is because I can't tell you how many times I've seen arguments about this character's sexuality on message boards and the wiki.  People ask over and over, "Is he supposed to be gay?"  And others respond, "No, they're just friends but their families have a problem with it."  It's maddening, but I think it demonstrates that people see what they want to see.  Some people quickly pick up on the clues that Wade and Herren are a couple and others don't.  If a writer didn't make it Word of God, there would probably still be people arguing about it on BSN.  That's why I think writers often make it painfully obvious with ham-handed dialogue and affectations.

ETA:  In that same game, there is another main character who is clearly meant to be a lesbian.  She's a butch stereotype.  She has short cornrows, wears an oversized t-shirt that says "Ask me about my big d***", wears combat boots, and speaks in an agressive and deep voice.  Again, no mention is made about her sexuality explicitly, but it's pretty obvious (in a Wade & Herren way), what their intentions were.

Modifié par daveliam, 01 décembre 2013 - 10:49 .

[Nightdragon8]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

Isn't that a good thing?

A point is being missed, here. You can broadcast that two men are a couple WITHOUT waving neon signs screaming that they are gay, whether those signs are stereotypes or otherwise. Opposite-gender couples do it all the time.  The fact that people seem to be overlooking the possibility speaks volumes.

Nobody is suggesting that Wade and Herren should have announced to the Warden, "Hullo friend! Welcome to my Gay Parlor.  I am gay, and this is my gay lover.  We are gay together." 

However, the dialogue could EASILY have been written to make it clear that they were lovers without bashing anyone's head in with declarations of gaydy mcgayderson; again, opposite-gender couples do this all the time.  Why does it beggar the imagination to think that same-gender couples could do the same?

However, not everybody is getting hit by the "neon signs". I saw no signs, stereotypes or otherwise, to tell me that they were gay. I had no freaking clue until a developer had to make that information known.
While they may have been stereotypical to you personally, doesn't necessarily mean they were and are for everyone else.

Well, my point was mostly in reference to the ideas in this thread that 1) it's okay to portray gay couples as stereotypes and leave it completely unsaid so that people may apply their own interpretations, and 2) that if you don't do that, the only other option must be to "announce" them as gay. 

I don't know what to tell you as far as you not seeing the stereotype.  The way Wade and Herren were portrayed IS a stereotype, and an obvious one, full stop, and one that is far more common than any other portrayal.

What I'm saying is that Wade and Herren could have been obviously depicted as a romantic couple without such a stereotypical portrayal, and without the phrase "I'm gay" every once being uttered.  Once again, this is done with opposite-gender couples easily and often.  In fact, simply doing this, and allowing such couples to be depicted in exactly the normal, typical, totally non-issue way that straight couples are, would go a looooooong way toward normalizing such depictions.

honestly I'm getting alittle sick and tired of people saying "stereotypes" and people complaining about it.

What about the Stereotypes of hetro couples? or the steroeotypes of everything else

Honestly, I thought of them as alittle firuity, but not gay, maybe they where maybe they wheren't but honestly, NOT MY BESIUNES WHAT THEY DO IN BED.

The thing is I have personally meet people who are fruity stright and fruity gay.

So what if it is a stereotype? Thats all it is. if it doesn't apply to you, then what? good for you? or are you taken offense on how it was protayed in a game? with plenty of other stereotypes, like "dumb guards" or corupt leaders or a ton of other stereotypes.

honestly I saw no reason to get upset over how they where protrayed. because they exist in real life, it may not be common but they DO exist. So while you may consider it an insult, the people who are like that, will consider it a complement.

I could honestly care the F#$#$ less who is gay or who is not in the game. Or in real life for that matter.

[Silfren]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Well, my point was mostly in reference to the ideas in this thread that 1) it's okay to portray gay couples as stereotypes and leave it completely unsaid so that people may apply their own interpretations, and 2) that if you don't do that, the only other option must be to "announce" them as gay. 

I don't know what to tell you as far as you not seeing the stereotype.  The way Wade and Herren were portrayed IS a stereotype, and an obvious one, full stop, and one that is far more common than any other portrayal.

What I'm saying is that Wade and Herren could have been obviously depicted as a romantic couple without such a stereotypical portrayal, and without the phrase "I'm gay" every once being uttered.  Once again, this is done with opposite-gender couples easily and often.  In fact, simply doing this, and allowing such couples to be depicted in exactly the normal, typical, totally non-issue way that straight couples are, would go a looooooong way toward normalizing such depictions.

honestly I'm getting alittle sick and tired of people saying "stereotypes" and people complaining about it.

What about the Stereotypes of hetro couples? or the steroeotypes of everything else

Honestly, I thought of them as alittle firuity, but not gay, maybe they where maybe they wheren't but honestly, NOT MY BESIUNES WHAT THEY DO IN BED.

The thing is I have personally meet people who are fruity stright and fruity gay.

So what if it is a stereotype? Thats all it is. if it doesn't apply to you, then what? good for you? or are you taken offense on how it was protayed in a game? with plenty of other stereotypes, like "dumb guards" or corupt leaders or a ton of other stereotypes.

honestly I saw no reason to get upset over how they where protrayed. because they exist in real life, it may not be common but they DO exist. So while you may consider it an insult, the people who are like that, will consider it a complement.

I could honestly care the F#$#$ less who is gay or who is not in the game. Or in real life for that matter.

If you actually have to ask why there is a problem with constantly portraying LGBT persons as stereotypes, or why stereotypes are bad at all, then I don't see much point in having any discussions with you.

In fact, given your whole "who the f*ck cares" response, I wonder why you're in this thread at all.  You're clearly not interested in civil discourse.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 11:00 .

[Thomas Andresen]

What about the Stereotypes of hetro couples? or the steroeotypes of everything else

The problem with depicting gay stereotypes in media comes when it's the chief way that gay people are depicted, which is the case for gay depictions, in all media, but not for depictions of straight couples.

[Ianamus]

daveliam wrote...

I agree with you on this point.  There's something pretty interesting around this, though, which is the fact that without the neon sign and/or declaration of gaeity, many people will explain away the relationship as something else. 

For example, in the game State of Decay, there is a main character who is obviously gay.  You are sent to rescue him from some zombies and when you show up, he's there with another guy.  The dialogue (that happens over the zombie killing action) makes it clear that the two of them are concerned about one another.  Then, when the conversation happens in the cut scene, it's very clear (at least to me) that the two men are in a relationship.  They act exactly as any other couple would in the situation, but never explicitly state it in the dialogue.  Later in the game, there are several scenes where the guy who becomes part of your group discusses his boyfriend with other characters.  Again, he never flat out says that he's in a relationship with them, but it's plainly the intent.  In fact, one throwaway line in the main character's joural refers to "Jacob and his boyfriend", but that's easy to miss unless you read all of the entries.

The reason why I bring it up is because I can't tell you how many times I've seen arguments about this character's sexuality on message boards and the wiki.  People ask over and over, "Is he supposed to be gay?"  And others respond, "No, they're just friends but their families have a problem with it."  It's maddening, but I think it demonstrates that people see what they want to see.  Some people quickly pick up on the clues that Wade and Herren are a couple and others don't.  If a writer didn't make it Word of God, there would probably still be people arguing about it on BSN.  That's why I think writers often make it painfully obvious with ham-handed dialogue and affectations.

Amusingly I normally come across across the complete opposite. Most of the online communities I frequent involve a lot of fangirls (and probably a few guys) pairing every two characters possible, particuarly the male ones, even if there is absolutely no indication at all that the two like each other.

I think the problem in general is the "straight until proven otherwise" attitude. Any friendship towards somebody of the opposite gender is immediately percieved as romantic even if it's not, while any sort of romantic relationship between two people of the same gender (particuarly men) has to spelled out or people will try to explain it away. 

[Silfren]

EJ107 wrote...

daveliam wrote...

I agree with you on this point.  There's something pretty interesting around this, though, which is the fact that without the neon sign and/or declaration of gaeity, many people will explain away the relationship as something else. 

For example, in the game State of Decay, there is a main character who is obviously gay.  You are sent to rescue him from some zombies and when you show up, he's there with another guy.  The dialogue (that happens over the zombie killing action) makes it clear that the two of them are concerned about one another.  Then, when the conversation happens in the cut scene, it's very clear (at least to me) that the two men are in a relationship.  They act exactly as any other couple would in the situation, but never explicitly state it in the dialogue.  Later in the game, there are several scenes where the guy who becomes part of your group discusses his boyfriend with other characters.  Again, he never flat out says that he's in a relationship with them, but it's plainly the intent.  In fact, one throwaway line in the main character's joural refers to "Jacob and his boyfriend", but that's easy to miss unless you read all of the entries.

The reason why I bring it up is because I can't tell you how many times I've seen arguments about this character's sexuality on message boards and the wiki.  People ask over and over, "Is he supposed to be gay?"  And others respond, "No, they're just friends but their families have a problem with it."  It's maddening, but I think it demonstrates that people see what they want to see.  Some people quickly pick up on the clues that Wade and Herren are a couple and others don't.  If a writer didn't make it Word of God, there would probably still be people arguing about it on BSN.  That's why I think writers often make it painfully obvious with ham-handed dialogue and affectations.

Amusingly I normally come across across the complete opposite. Most of the online communities I frequent involve a lot of fangirls (and probably a few guys) pairing every two characters possible, particuarly the male ones, even if there is absolutely no indication at all that the two like each other.

I think the problem in general is the "straight until proven otherwise" attitude. Any friendship towards somebody of the opposite gender is immediately percieved as romantic even if it's not, while any sort of romantic relationship between two people of the same gender (particuarly men) has to spelled out or people will try to explain it away. 

Fandom is an altogether different animal than mainstream media, unfortunately.  There definitely is a greater tendency to ship LGBT romances in fanfiction, although stereotypes do rule the day there as much as anywhere from what I've seen (which isn't to say I've not seen good, normalizing depictions of same--I have).  Both fandom and indie media do tend to be better at realistic non-problematic portrayals of genderqueer persons than mainsream media; but they're not perfect either, and often they are put out specifically in reaction to the larger problem.  They can't really be used as counter evidence to refute it.

Otherwise, I agree with you that part of the issue is simply "straight till proven gay," which stems from heteronormative assumption bias.  The "a man and a woman CAN'T be just friends" meme is a similarly irritating assumption. 

Modifié par Silfren, 01 décembre 2013 - 11:14 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Silfren wrote...

By no means am I trying to privilege the portrayal of one over the other.  But I do think there's a problem with the
"catty queen"  stereotype being the default go-to portrayal, which typically IS privileged over others.  The fact is, it IS a stereotype, and it perpetuates the belief that that is the face of gay men.

The other problem is playing such men strictly for laughs.  I do think there's a definite case to be made for putting characters like Wade and Herren in as a gag, rather than portraying more such characters as people to be taken seriously. 

I'm completely unsure why Bioware should be praised for their portrayal of Wade and Herren though, since there was nothing about this scene which hasn't been done before.  They did NOTHING more than cater to the age-old stereotype.  What exactly about that deserves praise?  It wasn't new, or edgy, or courageous in any way. 

Lebanon may be one of the more progressive Middle Eastern nations, but it's still got some issues. There is this clip segment on a show called Majdi and Wajdi. Basically it's two guys who act in the most stereotypically gay ways possible, ranging from speaking in excessively "girly girl feminine" voices to fighting over who gets to sit in front on a motorcycle.
It's incredibly offensive to LGBT people because it is using those stereotypes exclusively for laughs.

Wade and Herren's status as a couple wasn't used for laughs. They are an armorsmith and a merchant in a codependant work relationship that happen to be a couple. If you are assuming they are gay because of their "stereotypical" attitudes, then you are falling victim to the stereotype thinking to begin with.

Wade's dialogue is definitely hilarious, but not because he's gay, but it's because he's just who he is. Asking for him to be different would be hypocritical of us. He is who he is.

BioWare should be praised for including a couple in a functional relationship. That's not common in video games.

This, however, is a common issue within the LGBT community. 

Modifié par Lebdood, 02 décembre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Angrywolves]

wade and herren being a gay couple is irrelevant.

[Lebanese Dude]

EJ107 wrote...
I think the problem in general is the "straight until proven otherwise" attitude. Any friendship towards somebody of the opposite gender is immediately percieved as romantic even if it's not, while any sort of romantic relationship between two people of the same gender (particuarly men) has to spelled out or people will try to explain it away. 

Yep.