1981 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...

By no means am I trying to privilege the portrayal of one over the other.  But I do think there's a problem with the
"catty queen"  stereotype being the default go-to portrayal, which typically IS privileged over others.  The fact is, it IS a stereotype, and it perpetuates the belief that that is the face of gay men.

The other problem is playing such men strictly for laughs.  I do think there's a definite case to be made for putting characters like Wade and Herren in as a gag, rather than portraying more such characters as people to be taken seriously. 

I'm completely unsure why Bioware should be praised for their portrayal of Wade and Herren though, since there was nothing about this scene which hasn't been done before.  They did NOTHING more than cater to the age-old stereotype.  What exactly about that deserves praise?  It wasn't new, or edgy, or courageous in any way. 

Lebanon may be one of the more progressive Middle Eastern nations, but it's still got some issues. There is this clip segment on a show in Lebanon called Majdi and Wajdi. Basically it's two guys who act in the most stereotypically gay ways possible, ranging from speaking in excessively "girly girl feminine" voices to fighting over who gets to sit in front on a motorcycle.

It's incredibly offensive to LGBT people because it is using those stereotypes exclusively for laughs.

Wade and Herren's status as a couple wasn't used for laughs. They are an armorsmith and a merchant in a codependant work relationship that happen to be a couple. If you are assuming they are gay because of their "stereotypical" attitudes, then you are falling victim to the stereotype thinking to begin with.

Wade's dialogue is definitely hilarious, but not because he's gay, but it's because he's just who he is.

Stereotypes are best combated by being ignored. Asking to "normalize" a couple in order to appease ANYBODY is not cool to begin with.

BioWare should be praised for including a couple in a functional relationship. That's not common in video games.

Just because it isn't played for laughs doesn't mean that it isn't stereotypical and doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. 

I grew up thinking that all gay men were camp and effeminate because that was all I ever saw on television. I also thought that gay couples were weird and unusual because I never saw any in any of the media that I watched.

What would I have gained from seeing Wade and Herren in Origins? Nothing. The men are implied to be interested in each other and act in a camp, feminine way. It's still perpetuating the stereotypes I saw everywhere. It wouldn't have challenged my view that gay men were all effeminate and that gay couples were weird. 

It wasn't until a few years ago(!) that I finally found a show that had a portrayal of a homosexual couple that I really like. A romantic comedy which used no gay stereotypes, no efeminate interests or habits and where there was no drama related to their gender. It was enough to entirely change my view on homosexual couples, becuase, awful as it sounds, I had never seen one presented as truly "normal" before. 

Why should we praise Bioware for perpetuating sterotypes we see everywhere when they could have done, and have done, on other occasions, so much better?

Modifié par EJ107, 02 décembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Lebanese Dude]

EJ107 wrote...


Why should we praise Bioware for perpetuating sterotypes we see everywhere when they could have done, and have done, on other occasions, so much better?

You keep implying this particular stereotype is hurtful or something.

You are essentially judging all "campy" people for being who they are.

This is Wade's personality. He is "campy".

Do I want less "stereotypical" people? Sure...why not. I just don't want to do it for the sake of avoiding "camp".

Modifié par Lebdood, 02 décembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[Lebanese Dude]

EJ107 wrote...

It wasn't until a few years ago(!) that I finally found a show that had a portrayal of a homosexual couple that I really like. A romantic comedy which used no gay stereotypes, no efeminate interests or habits and where there was no drama related to their gender. It was enough to entirely change my view on homosexual couples, becuase, awful as it sounds, I had never seen one presented as truly "normal" before. 

This is great. Both "stereotypical" couples and "normal" couples should be presented in the media for the sake of showing the diversity of the LGBT population.

This doesn't mean that the "normal" couples should completely replace the "stereotypical" ones.

I see your qualm though. You don't want the "stereotypical" couples to be the sole representatives. That is fair.

Modifié par Lebdood, 02 décembre 2013 - 12:53 .

[draken-heart]

I have said somewhere on another thread, I would be good if they actually talked about it, like if a female LI and a Fem!Inqusitor were to get into a romance, they could talk about how the LI never been with another woman before or something like that.

[Plaintiff]

Lebdood wrote...
BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

I disagree.

I refuse to acknowledge that Wade and Herren are gay, because there's no actual indication of it in game. Nor do they ever state that they are together. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not explicitly mentioned in the text, then it doesn't exist.

Sure, David Gaider can announce, after the fact, that Wade and Herren are gay, but all that means is that they are gay in his imagination. Being the writer of the text doesn't actually make his interpretation more valid. Even as I say this, I can hear people gearing up to ridicule me, but it's true. Authors can't claim to know the definitive 'truth' of their own texts, they can only tell us what their intent was. But if readers discover a message in the text that is different from the author's intended one, or even opposed to it, that does not make readers' interpretation 'wrong', it means the author needed to make his intentions more explicit in the text.

Now, as stated earlier by others, Wade and Herren behave in a manner that is stereotypical of 'catty', 'feminine' gays. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Catty, feminine gays have just as much right to be in fiction as any other 'type' of gay.

Where the problem lies is that Wade and Herren don't actually do or say anything that indicates a homosexual inclination. Being catty is not inherently a homosexual trait, neither is being 'feminine' or flamboyant. The Bioware writers are expecting the audience to assume that Wade and Herren are gay because of traits they display that don't actually have any inherent connection to homosexuality. That is what is offensive, at least to me. 

Secondly is that while there's nothing wrong with behaving in a stereotypical way, Wade and Herren are characterised entirely by their stereotype. There is no effort to develop them beyond that or say anything intelligent about it. They're just stock joke characters. Ha ha! Look at these two guys! They behave differently from everyone else in the setting! They bicker and they have high voices! I bet they take it up the butt!

Stereotypes of any kind are lazy and obvious. You can start with a stereotype, but a good writer at least tries to show more than one facet of a character. If Anora was a stereotypical helpless princess, or if Alistair was a stereotypical jock meathead, or if Leliana and Morrigan were stock Betty & Veronica facsimiles, or if Loghain was a card-carrying cartoon villain, people would notice. And they would would complain about these characters being shallow. One-dimensional. Poorly-written.

Wade and Herren are shallow, one-dimensional and poorly written, but because David Gaider outed them on the internet, these mediocre characters suddenly become great and praise-worthy? We should regard Bioware as being progressive just for including gays at all, even if they're badly written and their sexuality is never mentioned? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lebdood wrote...
BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

I disagree.

I refuse to acknowledge that Wade and Herren are gay, because there's no actual indication of it in game. Nor do they ever state that they are together. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not explicitly mentioned in the text, then it doesn't exist.

Sure, David Gaider can announce, after the fact, that Wade and Herren are gay, but all that means is that they are gay in his imagination. Being the writer of the text doesn't actually make his interpretation more valid. Even as I say this, I can hear people gearing up to ridicule me, but it's true. Authors can't claim to know the definitive 'truth' of their own texts, they can only tell us what their intent was. But if readers discover a message in the text that is different from the author's intended one, or even opposed to it, that does not make readers' interpretation 'wrong', it means the author needed to make his intentions more explicit in the text.

Now, as stated earlier by others, Wade and Herren behave in a manner that is stereotypical of 'catty', 'feminine' gays. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Catty, feminine gays have just as much right to be in fiction as any other 'type' of gay.

Where the problem lies is that Wade and Herren don't actually do or say anything that indicates a homosexual inclination. Being catty is not inherently a homosexual trait, neither is being 'feminine' or flamboyant. The Bioware writers are expecting the audience to assume that Wade and Herren are gay because of traits they display that don't actually have any inherent connection to homosexuality. That is what is offensive, at least to me. 

Secondly is that while there's nothing wrong with behaving in a stereotypical way, Wade and Herren are characterised entirely by their stereotype. There is no effort to develop them beyond that or say anything intelligent about it. They're just stock joke characters. Ha ha! Look at these two guys! They behave differently from everyone else in the setting! They bicker and they have high voices! I bet they take it up the butt!

Stereotypes of any kind are lazy and obvious. You can start with a stereotype, but a good writer at least tries to show more than one facet of a character. If Anora was a stereotypical helpless princess, or if Alistair was a stereotypical jock meathead, or if Leliana and Morrigan were stock Betty & Veronica facsimiles, or if Loghain was a card-carrying cartoon villain, people would notice. And they would would complain about these characters being shallow. One-dimensional. Poorly-written.

Wade and Herren are shallow, one-dimensional and poorly written, but because David Gaider outed them on the internet, these mediocre characters suddenly become great and praise-worthy? We should regard Bioware as being progressive just for including gays at all, even if they're badly written and their sexuality is never mentioned? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

This.  It's what I was trying to say.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

I was exactly the same, which is why I reject Gaider's declaration that they're gay.

But whenever I've said previously that I didn't see anything in the portrayal of Wade and Herren to indicate homosexuality, I've had other posters go "Seriously? Seriously? Really? You don't see it?"

So obviously some people saw it and immediatly assumed they were gay. Which is bad.

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

I was exactly the same, which is why I reject Gaider's declaration that they're gay.

But whenever I've said previously that I didn't see anything in the portrayal of Wade and Herren to indicate homosexuality, I've had other posters go "Seriously? Seriously? Really? You don't see it?"

So obviously some people saw it and immediatly assumed they were gay. Which is bad.

But then why refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality? Just because there are issues with their portrayal doesn't negate, at least in my mind, that they can be a happy homosexual couple.

Modifié par eluvianix, 02 décembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Actually someone already stated that they didn't even know they were gay until the devs confirmed it. I'm sure others just didn't care. The way I saw it, Wade was an eccentric and Herren was the partner keeping him in line. I don't see the problem with adding stereotypical characters and couples, the problem is when those are the only types written. Now considering the fact that Wade and Herren were not the only type of gay couple written in the game, that includes Zev and Warden, then I don't see where the problem is.

I was the exact same. As a gaymer, I had no clue that they were gay or that they were a couple. Nothing screamed "gay" at me.

I was exactly the same, which is why I reject Gaider's declaration that they're gay.

But whenever I've said previously that I didn't see anything in the portrayal of Wade and Herren to indicate homosexuality, I've had other posters go "Seriously? Seriously? Really? You don't see it?"

So obviously some people saw it and immediatly assumed they were gay. Which is bad.

But then why refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality?

Why should anyone support the insistence on portraying people as gay without making it explicit?  If Wade and Herren are gay, why not simply present them plainly as lovers instead of using stereotypes clearly meant to lead people to that conclusion while refusing to actually come out and say it?

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...
But then why refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality?

Because it's not stated in the text at any point. People are just extrapolating homosexuality from their flamboyant behaviour.

Just because there are issues with their portrayal doesn't negate, at least in my mind, that they can be a happy homosexual couple.

Except the issue with their portrayal is that they aren't shown as a 'couple', they don't engage in any of the typical 'couple' behaviours, unless you count bickering. Where's the kissing? Where's the touching? Where are the pet names? When do they ever say 'Yes, we are together and it is fabulous'?

Every hetero relationship in the game is made explicit, even minor ones like the De Launcet family. Wade and Herren are, so far at least, the only gay NPC couple we've seen. And they're not a very good example of gays or couples, because there's nothing to show that they are either of these things.

If anything, based purely on how they constantly argue, I'd think Wade and Herren almost hated each other.

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
But then why refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality?

Because it's not stated in the text at any point. People are just extrapolating homosexuality from their flamboyant behaviour.

Just because there are issues with their portrayal doesn't negate, at least in my mind, that they can be a happy homosexual couple.

Except the issue with their portrayal is that they aren't shown as a 'couple', they don't engage in any of the typical 'couple' behaviours, unless you count bickering. Where's the kissing? Where's the touching? Where are the pet names? When do they ever say 'Yes, we are together and it is fabulous'?

Every hetero relationship in the game is made explicit, even minor ones like the De Launcet family. Wade and Herren are, so far at least, the only gay NPC couple we've seen. And they're not a very good example of gays or couples, because there's nothing to show that they are either of these things.

If anything, based purely on how they constantly argue, I'd think Wade and Herren almost hated each other.

I see and understand your end of the argument.
As for Wade and Herren bickering, what you say is rather interesting. From my own personal perspective, me and my best friend bicker constantly, in a similar manner as to Wade and Herren. However, we still love each other to death. So in Wade and Herren's case, I could pick up some of the fondness for one another, even in their bickering. To me, they seemed like they were good friends with one another. However, I might have caught that only because of my own personal experiences, something another person might lack.
Edit: And maybe you are right, that Wade and Herren should be more explicit, as should other characters. In that regard, I would like to see them return, especially in a more progressive and liberal country like Orlais. Or at least, we might see more explicitly homosexual couples in game.

Modifié par eluvianix, 02 décembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lebdood wrote...
BioWare should be praised for their depiction of Herren and Wade.

I disagree.

I refuse to acknowledge that Wade and Herren are gay, because there's no actual indication of it in game. Nor do the
Wade and Herren are shallow, one-dimensional and poorly written, but because David Gaider outed them on the internet, these mediocre characters suddenly become great and praise-worthy? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I think you're misunderstanding that quote, although that was my poor choice of words at fault.

I meant to say that it should be praised that they depicted a gay couple. Even if you don't personally believe that what David Gaider said is applicable, it still doesn't make it untrue.

Personally, I picked up vibes from the beginning, when they talking to each other as an old married couple would.

That's exactly why I thought it should be praised. 

Also, I never said they need to be praised to the high heavens, but as minor characters, it was great of BioWare to include them.

Refreshing actually.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
But then why refuse to acknowledge their homosexuality?

Because it's not stated in the text at any point. People are just extrapolating homosexuality from their flamboyant behaviour.

Also from Darkspawn Chronicles.

I don't see the point in arguing against Word of God unless it's explicitly denied by the game, but... *shrug* I didn't think they were a couple just from DA:O (I thought the one was an eccentric artiste, and the other a long-suffering shopkeeper trying to stay in business ) but I don't care if they're in a relationship or a demonic symbiosis or whatever. They were an amusing interlude in DA:O, and that's all they were intended to be.

[Lebanese Dude]

Silfren wrote...
Why should anyone support the insistence on portraying people as gay without making it explicit?  If Wade and Herren are gay, why not simply present them plainly as lovers instead of using stereotypes clearly meant to lead people to that conclusion while refusing to actually come out and say it?

I still don't get why their portrayal is wrong. They are who they are. People can come up with their own conclusions. Their relationship is nobody's business, especially not a client. 

Would it have been better if it were said ingame? Sure. I explicitly remember that David Gaider said that as a response to fans who were demanding to know if they were gay.

[TEWR]

Wade and Herren were... odd. At the time I first played the game, I thought it was eccentric/hardball partner while also, at times, thinking "Well, they do seem like a couple". It veered for me between just partners and a couple. But, I didn't really see anything stereotypical in how they were portrayed regarding gay people.

I just saw some silliness that I translated into being a couple. Silliness I've seen elsewhere for other couples of all types.

So I can agree a bit that their portrayal was lacking something. At the same time however, they were only meant to be something on the side. Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 02:36 .

[TEWR]

Lebdood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why should anyone support the insistence on portraying people as gay without making it explicit?  If Wade and Herren are gay, why not simply present them plainly as lovers instead of using stereotypes clearly meant to lead people to that conclusion while refusing to actually come out and say it?

I still don't get why their portrayal is wrong. They are who they are. People can come up with their own conclusions. Their relationship is nobody's business, especially not a client. 

Would it have been better if it were said ingame? Sure. I explicitly remember that David Gaider said that as a response to fans who were demanding to know if they were gay

Thread in question.

EDIT: Correction, he did. Sort of. Page 2.

David Gaider wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...
...and no, I didn't find their mannerisms themselves to be trite (I found them humorous just as most others did), but rather, I found the notion that "this is something that gays do" to be trite.

It's not "something that gays do" -- but it's something that some gay people do. I didn't write Wade and Herren, but I know a couple who act in exactly the same way so it didn't strike me as being odd. I think there's room to depict relationships of several varieties, gay or straight, and in this case the fact that they're a couple isn't even the most important thing about them, really... hence why it wasn't singled out. It just is. I wouldn't have said anything, but since the question was asked, why not? It's not a wink wink nudge nudge situation, after all.

EDIT 2: Better context.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 02:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

We have Branka and Hespith as well as Marjoline and Leliana.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

We have Branka and Hespith as well as Marjoline and Leliana.

That's true. Forgot about them.

I know some people who are lesbians and don't like to be called "gay" while attracted to women (obvious, really), but being a straight male gamer I don't know what to think on that front. 

But then, I also think some people might not like how those instances were depicted. An abusive relationship (Marjolaine/Leliana) and a woman who goes off the deep end (with noble intentions) and sacrifices her entire house, lover included. I think Xilizhra made a thread with that premise once? But that's a feeling, nothing more.

And Branka would technically be a bisexual though, wouldn't she? She married Oghren, had sex with him, probably loved him for a time before thinking him useless. Could be argued she left him behind because she didn't want him to die out there. Maybe. 

Doubtful though.

I dunno. I'm not one that can really get into these types of things (representation discussions) all too well without probably coming off like an ignorant ****. All I can say is some normal relationships of all types and sexualities, without any story attached to it, probably wouldn't kill Bioware. 

Especially with a new engine. But then you also get into the resource arguments. 

More complicated an issue then it seems, if you ask me. Which you didn't, but I thought I'd tell you anyway. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[Lebanese Dude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

If they depict another couple who act "stereotypically" gay, then yes it becomes a trend and as such becomes a problem.

Currently though, I don't see it.

They've been steadily increasing LGBT visibility every game. I say cut BioWare some slack on that front.

That's just my thoughts on the matter.

[Plaintiff]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

We have Branka and Hespith as well as Marjoline and Leliana.

I forgot all about them.

Maria swoops in to school all of us yet again.

I would say these portrayals have their own problems, though, not to mention the remarkable visibility of lesbian couples in Bioware games generally, compared to gay men.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

We have Branka and Hespith as well as Marjoline and Leliana.

I forgot all about them.

Maria swoops in to school all of us yet again.

I would say these portrayals have their own problems, though, not to mention the remarkable visibility of lesbians in Bioware games generally, compared to gay men.

Well...they were mentioned a couple of pages ago...but whatever. What was specifically wrong with these portrayals though?

[Plaintiff]

Lebdood wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

If they depict another couple who act "stereotypically" gay, then yes it becomes a trend and as such becomes a problem.

Currently though, I don't see it.

They've been steadily increasing LGBT visibility every game. I say cut BioWare some slack on that front.

That's just my thoughts on the matter.

Believe me, I'm glad that they're even attemtping to tackle the issue at all.

The reason Bioware gets so much crap on this front is because they're virtually the only developer studio that's even making an effort.

I'm not trying to be snide or mean to them when I point out some aspects of their writing that I perceive as problematic, I'm trying to help, I want them to be better. If I didn't think Bioware was genuinely trying to be inclusive to LGBT players, I wouldn't bother.

[Lebanese Dude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thread in question.

EDIT: Correction, he did. Sort of. Page 2.

David Gaider wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...
...and no, I didn't find their mannerisms themselves to be trite (I found them humorous just as most others did), but rather, I found the notion that "this is something that gays do" to be trite.

It's not "something that gays do" -- but it's something that some gay people do. I didn't write Wade and Herren, but I know a couple who act in exactly the same way so it didn't strike me as being odd. I think there's room to depict relationships of several varieties, gay or straight, and in this case the fact that they're a couple isn't even the most important thing about them, really... hence why it wasn't singled out. It just is. I wouldn't have said anything, but since the question was asked, why not? It's not a wink wink nudge nudge situation, after all.

EDIT 2: Better context.

Thank you. What I have been saying is similar, then.

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since they're the only portrayal of a gay couple in Thedas, then it's problematic. To me, anyway.

We have Branka and Hespith as well as Marjoline and Leliana.

I forgot all about them.

Maria swoops in to school all of us yet again.

I would say these portrayals have their own problems, though, not to mention the remarkable visibility of lesbians in Bioware games generally, compared to gay men.

Well...they were mentioned a couple of pages ago...but whatever. What was specifically wrong with these portrayals though?

Were they? I must've missed that.

The problem is that they fall into the old trope of the "treacherous lesbian" or even possibly the "depraved gay/bisexual".

With Marjolaine, Branka, Celene and Briala in the upcoming novel, and possibly more examples I'm unaware of, the Bioware ouvre has displayed a worrying tendency to perpetuate the stereotype of lesbians being backstabbing traitors, and their relationships ending in tragedy, usually with the death of one of them.

Of course, a lot of Bioware relationships are bad and unhealthy. But lesbians and lesbian couples have been portrayed like this for a long time now, and it would behoove Bioware to show some awareness and sensitivity to that.

I don't think they're trying to paint lesbians or their relationships as bad, I just think they're being a bit thoughtless about it. It's possible that they're unaware of the trend.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Plaintiff wrote...
Believe me, I'm glad that they're even attemtping to tackle the issue at all.

The reason Bioware gets so much crap on this front is because they're virtually the only developer studio that's even making an effort.

I'm not trying to be snide or mean to them when I point out some aspects of their writing that I perceive as problematic, I'm trying to help, I want them to be better. If I didn't think Bioware was genuinely trying to be inclusive to LGBT players, I wouldn't bother.

Agreed.