1981 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Lebdood wrote...

If they depict another couple who act "stereotypically" gay, then yes it becomes a trend and as such becomes a problem.

Currently though, I don't see it.

Fair point. Isn't a 1:0 ratio on that front enough though, to say that it's problematic.

They've been steadily increasing LGBT visibility every game. I say cut BioWare some slack on that front.

That's just my thoughts on the matter.

This isn't a discussion I devote myself to rather strongly, to be honest. I support better representation in video games for everyone (to a point so long as it doesn't come at the expense of the story, since it's another way to spend resources) but I don't want it shoehorned in. I want people to feel like they can play the game without having their way of life criticized (in some form).

For a village or town though, I can't see why Bioware couldn't make some models that are in the game, holding hands, of whatever gender. There doesn't even need to be a scene with them. You just see them in the background. Not that that should be the case ALL the time, but it'd be a good thing to do on its own.

Not so many that it feels like a shoehorned attempt to not seem like dicks, but enough that it seems like a natural part of the world. But then, again, I'm a straight male gamer. So I lack a certain perspective.

One thing I never got though was why Anders only talked about Karl with a male Hawke. What purpose did that serve?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Lebanese Dude]

Plaintiff wrote...

The problem is that they fall into the old trope of the "treacherous lesbian" or even possibly the "depraved gay/bisexual".

Are those really tropes? I have never seen them anywhere else 

Edit: meant to say "I haven't seen the "treacherous lesbian" one anywhere else".

Modifié par Lebdood, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:42 .

[Lebanese Dude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fair point. Isn't a 1:0 ratio on that front enough though, to say that it's problematic.

This isn't a discussion I devote myself to rather strongly, to be honest. I support better representation (to a point so long as it doesn't come at the expense of the story, since it's another way to spend resources) but I don't want it shoehorned in.

For a village or town though, I can't see why Bioware couldn't make some models that are in the game, holding hands, of whatever gender. There doesn't even need to be a scene with them. You just see them in the background.

Not so many that it feels like a shoehorned attempt to not seem like dicks, but enough that it seems like a natural part of the world.

One thing I never got though was why Anders only talked about Karl with a male Hawke. What purpose did that serve?

On this I agree.

Modifié par Lebdood, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[TEWR]

Lebdood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The problem is that they fall into the old trope of the "treacherous lesbian" or even possibly the "depraved gay/bisexual".

Are those really tropes? I have never seen them anywhere else 

Depraved bisexual/homosexual is. Can't speak to the treacherous lesbian one, though it'd probably just fall under depraved homosexual I guess.

List of tropes associated with this discussion

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 décembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The problem is that they fall into the old trope of the "treacherous lesbian" or even possibly the "depraved gay/bisexual".

Are those really tropes? I have never seen them anywhere else 

Depraved bisexual/homosexual is. Can't speak to the treacherous lesbian one.

List of tropes associated with this discussion

Even still, I loved Hespith's character, especiallyhow she became a witness to Branka's fall.

[TEWR]

I enjoyed it too. It's not that the writing itself is bad, it's that the exclusiveness of the idea of lesbian relationships being ultimately tragic and unfortunate is problematic.

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I enjoyed it too. It's not that the writing itself is bad, it's that the exclusiveness of the idea of lesbian relationships being ultimately tragic and unfortunate is problematic.

And therein lies the double edged sword. I freaking loved Hespith's character, but cringe at the implications of lesbian relationships ending in tragedy, even though the relationship itself between the two was written well.

[Lebanese Dude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Depraved bisexual/homosexual is. Can't speak to the treacherous lesbian one, though it'd probably just fall under depraved homosexual I guess.

List of tropes associated with this discussion

Er oops I meant the "treacherous" lesbian one. The Depraved bisexual/homosexual is overdone for sure.

[Lebanese Dude]

eluvianix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I enjoyed it too. It's not that the writing itself is bad, it's that the exclusiveness of the idea of lesbian relationships being ultimately tragic and unfortunate is problematic.

And therein lies the double edged sword. I freaking loved Hespith's character, but cringe at the implications of lesbian relationships ending in tragedy, even though the relationship itself between the two was written well.

I think I missed something, because I didn't see get much information on Hespith+Branka beyond "Her lover and I could not stop her" and "They all abandoned me, even my Hespith".

Still it was quite tragic so I suppose it fits the bill.

[Hellion Rex]

Lebdood wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I enjoyed it too. It's not that the writing itself is bad, it's that the exclusiveness of the idea of lesbian relationships being ultimately tragic and unfortunate is problematic.

And therein lies the double edged sword. I freaking loved Hespith's character, but cringe at the implications of lesbian relationships ending in tragedy, even though the relationship itself between the two was written well.

I think I missed something, because I didn't see get much information on Hespith+Branka beyond "Her lover and I could not stop her" and "They all abandoned me, even my Hespith".

Still it was quite tragic so I suppose it fits the bill.

That might be my own obsession over the character of Hespith kicking in. I liked that Branka reduced Hespith to a mere tool in her quest for the Anvil, and that Hespith could only watch as Branka grew even more and more obsessed with her desire for the Anvil. In that sense, the relationship was done well, at least in my eyes. However, it still reinforces the lesbian relationships perpetually ending in tragedy trope.

[lxwkl31]

Were there any examples of same-sex relationships in DA2? Like confirmed? Other than the Seneschal and romances?

[Hellion Rex]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Were there any examples of same-sex relationships in DA2? Like confirmed? Other than the Seneschal and romances?

Nope. Only bisexual characters.

[lxwkl31]

That's what I thought. So how has visibility increased with every game? Why? Because they offered all the romances (save Sebastian) to either gender? It seems to me that it back-tracked and the LGBT front from Origins.

[Silfren]

lxwkl31 wrote...

That's what I thought. So how has visibility increased with every game? Why? Because they offered all the romances (save Sebastian) to either gender? It seems to me that it back-tracked and the LGBT front from Origins.

Maybe it hasn't increased in terms of measurable numbers per game, but it has definitely improved over time for DA-related content.  In The Calling there are two men in a canonical relationship.  In Origins of course we have Leliana and Zevran as firmly established bisexual characters, as well as Leliana's past relationship with Marjolaine--and of course Wade and Herren.  There is also Isabela.  You also have the option, as a Warden of either gender, to have a one night stand with either a man or a woman in the Cousland origin.  In DA2, beyond the LIs, you have Serendipity, problematic though it is, and Jethann.  In the comics, there is the transgender woman, Maevaris.  In the upcoming book The Masked Empire, of course, there is the stated relationship between Celene and her elf servant. 

It's not much, but it is there, and yes, Bioware is making an effort.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 décembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[lxwkl31]

Silfren wrote...

lxwkl31 wrote...

That's what I thought. So how has visibility increased with every game? Why? Because they offered all the romances (save Sebastian) to either gender? It seems to me that it back-tracked and the LGBT front from Origins.

Maybe it hasn't increased in terms of measurable numbers per game, but it has definitely improved over time for DA-related content.  In The Calling there are two men in a canonical relationship.  In Origins of course we have Leliana and Zevran as firmly established bisexual characters, as well as Leliana's past relationship with Marjolaine--and of course Wade and Herren.  There is also Isabela.  You also have the option, as a Warden of either gender, to have a one night stand with either a man or a woman in the Cousland origin.  In DA2, beyond the LIs, you have Serendipity, problematic though it is, and Jethann.  In the comics, there is the transgender woman, Maevaris.  In the upcoming book The Masked Empire, of course, there is the stated relationship between Celene and her elf servant. 

It's not much, but it is there, and yes, Bioware is making an effort.

I have no doubt whatsoever that they're making an effort, I'm not bashing them or attacking them, and it's why I love Bioware so much- becuase they are making an effort. My only point was that, strictly game to game, there wasn't that much of an improvement- again, just looking at the games. I'm well aware of the other LGBT characters in other mediums pertaining to the dragon age universe. I'm just saying, as far as actual gay content, DA:O was supior to DA2.

I love LOVE that they're trying and I fully support them! I wish more companies were like them.

[Silfren]

lxwkl31 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

lxwkl31 wrote...

That's what I thought. So how has visibility increased with every game? Why? Because they offered all the romances (save Sebastian) to either gender? It seems to me that it back-tracked and the LGBT front from Origins.

Maybe it hasn't increased in terms of measurable numbers per game, but it has definitely improved over time for DA-related content.  In The Calling there are two men in a canonical relationship.  In Origins of course we have Leliana and Zevran as firmly established bisexual characters, as well as Leliana's past relationship with Marjolaine--and of course Wade and Herren.  There is also Isabela.  You also have the option, as a Warden of either gender, to have a one night stand with either a man or a woman in the Cousland origin.  In DA2, beyond the LIs, you have Serendipity, problematic though it is, and Jethann.  In the comics, there is the transgender woman, Maevaris.  In the upcoming book The Masked Empire, of course, there is the stated relationship between Celene and her elf servant. 

It's not much, but it is there, and yes, Bioware is making an effort.

I have no doubt whatsoever that they're making an effort, I'm not bashing them or attacking them, and it's why I love Bioware so much- becuase they are making an effort. My only point was that, strictly game to game, there wasn't that much of an improvement- again, just looking at the games. I'm well aware of the other LGBT characters in other mediums pertaining to the dragon age universe. I'm just saying, as far as actual gay content, DA:O was supior to DA2.

I love LOVE that they're trying and I fully support them! I wish more companies were like them.

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were bashing or attacking.  I just thought it might be a good idea to stress for myself that I am willing to credit Bioware for effort, even if I think they do still fall short.

[Orctavius]

I also didn't realize that Wade and Herren were intended to be gay while playing Origins and Awakenings. It would be cool to see them again in Inquisition and for their relationship to more overt so it can be more than developer cannon.

[lxwkl31]

Silfren wrote...


Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were bashing or attacking.  I just thought it might be a good idea to stress for myself that I am willing to credit Bioware for effort, even if I think they do still fall short.

Ok! I was really worried that that's how I was coming across! They definitely deserve the credit, if not more. Not many companies would incorporate so much diversity, specifically LGBT's, in their content and I'm very grateful that they're committed to it regardless of any negativity they have to endure to do so. I think that for myself I kind of take for granted what they're doing. 

[Vaedaku]

I can see both sides here- on one hand I like characters being their own person and not bowing down to the PC regardless of what terms they're on or the opinions they have, on the other hand I like to try and make my characters people pleasers, so I do like a certain amount of sway in what they think or could possibly be like.

(Here's where I go off track for a bit)
It's the same kind of opinion I have on the approval meters in DA:O and DA2, in Origins the characters could make more decisions for themselves and what you said to them and how you acted affected some of their attitude towards you, and if you gave them enough bull they'd leave. In DA2 I like how they introduced the idea of companions being rivals but not outright hating you enough to leave. Really what they need is two bars, one that works on overall opinions like if they hate you and want to leave or like you and stay, and the other works on attitude, whether you act like rivals or best buds.

(Back on track)
Honestly though, characters can be written well even if they all have the same sexuality. Hell, for a long time any romance/flirt/etc options available in games were most often all straight and could still be well written. If LI's are open to PCs regardless of their chosen gender, you at least get a bit more choice in what you want, how you shape the DA world, and it won't necessarily stop them from being their own characters if done carefully and properly. If you balance it out with some opinions of their own that you either can't change or are really difficult to change about the relationship and other things, it can work pretty well.

[Direwolf0294]

I'm just going to throw it out there, but on Herren and Wade, I always thought their relationship was brotherly, and had no idea it was supposed to be anything different until I came to the forums. I always thought Wade was supposed to have aspergers or something similar, and Herren was his friend who watched out for him. Like Sheldon and Leonard in The Big Bang Theory.

I don't know if it's a good or bad thing I missed the gay, or whether it says more about myself or the characters that I missed it.

[Hellion Rex]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I'm just going to throw it out there, but on Herren and Wade, I always thought their relationship was brotherly, and had no idea it was supposed to be anything different until I came to the forums. I always thought Wade was supposed to have aspergers or something similar, and Herren was his friend who watched out for him. Like Sheldon and Leonard in The Big Bang Theory.

I don't know if it's a good or bad thing I missed the gay, or whether it says more about myself or the characters that I missed it.

I am gay and I still missed it. It is no fault of yours. Some people pick up on the "gay" and others don't. I don't think they are that stereotypical, but others on here clearly do.

[draken-heart]

I guess I did not explain my last post well enough. I feel that when it comes to sexuality and "good writing", that it comes down to the character.

Like Leliana in origins, that is a good way yo write sexuality into the character. Leliana was "technically" bisexual, with a probable leaning towards homosexual. Same thing here. Let the Companion mention it but not make it a big deal.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Orctavius wrote...

I also didn't realize that Wade and Herren were intended to be gay while playing Origins and Awakenings. It would be cool to see them again in Inquisition and for their relationship to more overt so it can be more than developer cannon.

I'm not sure how much more overt you can make it without making them even more camp

I don't know. I am gay and I still missed it. It must not have been THAT overt.

[Gear2nd]

Man, I sure wish real life romance was like DA2 romance...oh wait...I'm trying to bridge reality to fiction..