1981 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

[Cheylus]

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

My thoughts exactly. I had a different feeling with DA2 and yet it's sometimes considered as an improvement over DA:O - where some romances can actually have a link to the plot.

[Drasanil]

Cheylus wrote...

I also have to say I hated brothels in Dragon Age, this is such a tasteless, ugly and unfunny bad move imo. So basically, I can't take that as an advanced civilisation.

Honest curiosity, may I ask why? Brothels have been a constant throughout human history. It's only in the last century or so that they fell out of favour. Unless you define advanced solely as mid to late 20th century and 21rst century... in which case you are right DA would not fall with in that level of development considering they have barely even heard of gunpowder. 

[Plaintiff]

fchopin wrote...

I don’t care what kind of sexual preference companions have in DA3 provided they are used to make the plot better.
If they are used like tomatoes so the PC can get laid to anything then i will be avoiding them as they would be useless companions.

My reason for this is that it is impossible to create a good companion in a story based game if companions are used for self gratification.
Companions should be unique and different and also plot related and not for gratifying the PC character. If writers think making all characters use all sexual possibilities is better for plot then they are wrong.

So, basically, "romance is terrible, except when I like it".

[karushna5]

If it makes you feel better Allan most people I know in the Queer community, including myself have loved the Bi sexual romances, I even know one person who isn't even a gamer who loves it due to that.

Honestly, the romances did change a great deal from gender in little ways that mattered. Me and my "roommate" had to romance Anders twice because his attitude with male Hawke was very different from female Hawke, even the flirtatiouns with Fenris changed context and even availability based on gender. Merrill had issues with Male Hawke, because well kids, that fem Hawke never had.

In the end...they were very very different without it being separate. Different issues, different approaches. They were subtle, but they were definitely there. I don't even understand how that could be lazy or bad, it was very well thought out and executed. There were serious flaws with DAII but that was brilliant!

I am tired of hearing that bisexuals are unrealistic...I really really am. They exist, not sloppy to write one and really they don't pursue love interests in a super special way. They are people. And the idea that 4 people in your group can't be bisexual is unrealistic is not...not even in real life. Communities flock together.

[Dirgegun]

I feel like the only one who didn't see the DA2 characters as playersexual. Were they all available to Hawke? Yes, but that doesn't mean playersexual. If I'm going to use lables... 

Anders came across as pansexual to me.

Fenris came across as demisexual to me.

Isabela is bisexual, I think. 

And Merrill came across as demisexual as well.

Aveline is obviously straight, and Varric is Bianca-sexual. 

Edit: whatever you choose to label it, I think that all the romance options should remain open to everyone, no matter what their gender is. What I would like to see, and what would add more to the story than gender, is that what the PC is/how they act affects the romance. For an example: If a romance choice is NOT okay with Blood Magic, they shouldn't romance a blood mage. Or if a romance choice is an elf, they should NOT want anything to do with a racist jerkarse. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[Cheylus]

Drasanil wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

I also have to say I hated brothels in Dragon Age, this is such a tasteless, ugly and unfunny bad move imo. So basically, I can't take that as an advanced civilisation.

Honest curiosity, may I ask why? Brothels have been a constant throughout human history. It's only in the last century or so that they fell out of favour. Unless you define advanced solely as mid to late 20th century and 21rst century... in which case you are right DA would not fall with in that level of development considering they have barely even heard of gunpowder.

It felt like "funny slavery" to me. 
DA:O > Pay the owner some money, then put yourself in front of the people you want to ****. A joke before bedtime and CUT. 
DA2 > Talk to the owner: "I've got gold, so give me the best." "Ok, they're ready to serve." / Joke before bedtime, CUT... Zipper sound. 
In real life you actually need to negociate with the prostitute her/himself. I don't know about prostitution in medieval era. 

It's as disgusting as sex cards in The Witcher. But don't be too hard on TW. 
You have a 3 brothels in TW:
- the owner of the first one is the daughter of a reverend seen outside the city who discarded her when she got pregnant. She loves the captain of the city guards with all her heart (her true love resolves a quest). You also helped prostitutes who are threatened by bandits in the city.
- there is a brothel in the merchant quarter: it is owned by a vampiress who uses this to drink blood from customers. Sometimes, girls come to see her because they want to free themselves from family and wedding (it is actually another questline: a soldier asks you to find his prostitute-sister who is, according to him, mentally manipulated by the brothel's owner).
- there is another brothel in TW2: the owner uses her brothel to spy on the city's main figures.

Meanwhile, in BioWare games, prostitutes are funny animated objects. 

[fchopin]

Plaintiff wrote...

So, basically, "romance is terrible, except when I like it".

No, romance is great provided it is meaningful and not so i can get laid to anyone in the game.
I found both the romances in ME3 for Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor great, i played a male Shepard and had no problem with both romances as Samantha said no to me and i don’t do M/M romances. That is how it should be and it has nothing to do with what i like.
I want good companions for the story and plot and not like in DA2.
If Bioware continues making all companions available to the PC Irrespective what gender is picked then i will not do any of the romances and just play for the story.
You play the game how you like and i will play how i like but don’t try to say that all companions should be open for all is the best way because that is how you like it.

[Dirgegun]

Cheylus wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Cheylus wrote...

I also have to say I hated brothels in Dragon Age, this is such a tasteless, ugly and unfunny bad move imo. So basically, I can't take that as an advanced civilisation.

Honest curiosity, may I ask why? Brothels have been a constant throughout human history. It's only in the last century or so that they fell out of favour. Unless you define advanced solely as mid to late 20th century and 21rst century... in which case you are right DA would not fall with in that level of development considering they have barely even heard of gunpowder.

It felt like "funny slavery" to me. 
DA:O > Pay the owner some money, then put yourself in front of the people you want to ****. A joke before bedtime and CUT. 
DA2 > Talk to the owner: "I've got gold, so give me the best." "Ok, they're ready to serve." / Joke before bedtime, CUT... Zipper sound. 
In real life you actually need to negociate with the prostitute her/himself. I don't know about prostitution in medieval era. 

It's as disgusting as sex cards in The Witcher. But don't be too hard on TW. 
You have a 3 brothels in TW:
- the owner of the first one is the daughter of a reverend seen outside the city who discarded her when she got pregnant. She loves the captain of the city guards with all her heart (her true love resolves a quest). You also helped prostitutes who are threatened by bandits in the city.
- there is a brothel in the merchant quarter: it is owned by a vampiress who uses this to drink blood from customers. Sometimes, girls come to see her because they want to free themselves from family and wedding (it is actually another questline: a soldier asks you to find his prostitute-sister who is, according to him, mentally manipulated by the brothel's owner).
- there is another brothel in TW2: the owner uses her brothel to spy on the city's main figures.

Meanwhile, in BioWare games, prostitutes are funny animated objects. 

Might not want to visit Australia, then. We have registered brothels. Which I guess makes us not an 'advanced civilisation'. 

Jokes aside, I do understand your argument to a degree, but at the same time... you're sort of ignoring the fact that the Blooming Rose was being used to lure young Templar recruits into a blood mage trap so they could have demons forced into them, so... it actually did have some plot relevance. And considering the workers weren't proper romances, it would be pretty pointless giving you a whole side quest where you 'meet the prositute' and wine and dine her or him.

Still better than the objectifying sex cards from the Witcher.  

[Plaintiff]

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

So, basically, "romance is terrible, except when I like it".

No, romance is great provided it is meaningful and not so i can get laid to anyone in the game.
I found both the romances in ME3 for Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor great, i played a male Shepard and had no problem with both romances as Samantha said no to me and i don’t do M/M romances. That is how it should be and it has nothing to do with what i like.
I want good companions for the story and plot and not like in DA2.
If Bioware continues making all companions available to the PC Irrespective what gender is picked then i will not do any of the romances and just play for the story.
You play the game how you like and i will play how i like but don’t try to say that all companions should be open for all is the best way because that is how you like it.

You found the Steve and Sam romances "great" because you didn't play them? Nobody made you play gay romances in DA2 either, so what the hell is the problem?

Your "play as you like while I play as I like" argument doesn't hold up. Mass Effect doesn't let me play as I like, and when it finally did, I got two options compared to straight men who have half a dozen.

DA2's way is the best because it's the fairest to everyone.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 juin 2013 - 10:47 .

[fchopin]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Fairer to all means making the best story possible not getting laid to anything.

[Dirgegun]

Plaintiff wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

So, basically, "romance is terrible, except when I like it".

No, romance is great provided it is meaningful and not so i can get laid to anyone in the game.
I found both the romances in ME3 for Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor great, i played a male Shepard and had no problem with both romances as Samantha said no to me and i don’t do M/M romances. That is how it should be and it has nothing to do with what i like.
I want good companions for the story and plot and not like in DA2.
If Bioware continues making all companions available to the PC Irrespective what gender is picked then i will not do any of the romances and just play for the story.
You play the game how you like and i will play how i like but don’t try to say that all companions should be open for all is the best way because that is how you like it.

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Except whether or not a romance is well written and has a story you're interested in exploring should have nothing to do with the gender flags. Let's say you romanced Fenris and thoroughly enjoyed the option and how it added to your story... well, the fact that someone with a male character can experience that same story and extra content shouldn't take away from your experience. 

Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologise for any unfair assumptions, but your argument to me pretty much sounds like 'if the characters are available to everyone, then that invalidates the story in those romances no matter how well it's written and that those who like that option just want to sleep with all the things, instead of, legitimately, liking that story'.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 28 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[Plaintiff]

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Fairer to all means making the best story possible not getting laid to anything.

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

[Cheylus]

Might not want to visit Australia, then. We have registered brothels. Which I guess makes us not an 'advanced civilisation'.

Can't argue here, that's all opinions. First and foremost I had some asian countries in mind when I wrote this. I can't stand human beings (mostly girls) on display in general whether it's legal (Netherlands, Australia) or not.

you're sort of ignoring the fact that the Blooming Rose was being used to lure young Templar recruits into a blood mage trap so they could have demons forced into them, so... it actually did have some plot relevance.

You're right, I forgot about that. I forgot about the quest with Emeric and Ninette too. I still feel the "relevance of brothels" (what a beautiful syntagm) is not as strong and deep as it is in TW games.

Modifié par Cheylus, 28 juin 2013 - 10:53 .

[fchopin]

Plaintiff wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Fairer to all means making the best story possible not getting laid to anything.

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

I have no problem with Gay companions in games, Bioware can make all companions gay if they like if that is required in the story.
All i want is for companions to have the same sexual preferences whatever gender i select for my PC.

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...


DA2's way is the best because it's the fairest to everyone.

Your right, it is the fairest way for everyone. But the implementation matters.

Perhaps Bioware could use a subtle in game cue early on in the narrative and give their characters slightly different facets which would be shown to different players (not needing something as crude as an orientation toggle during character creation....). This would have the effect of keeping characters natures more their own and not so transperantly dependant on the player. A little more work but less than needing to include more characters. 

[Dirgegun]

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Fairer to all means making the best story possible not getting laid to anything.

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

I have no problem with Gay companions in games, Bioware can make all companions gay if they like if that is required in the story.
All i want is for companions to have the same sexual preferences whatever gender i select for my PC.

None of them 'changed' sexuality, though. Unless you want to argue Ander's talking about Karl to a male Hawke, but not a female is some how a change in his sexuality? Though it really isn't. 

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's the best way because it's fairest to everyone.

Fairer to all means making the best story possible not getting laid to anything.

And it's not the best story possible if there are icky gays making you uncomfortable, right?

...just wow...stop doing this...

[Xilizhra]

I have no problem with Gay companions in games, Bioware can make all companions gay if they like if that is required in the story.
All i want is for companions to have the same sexual preferences whatever gender i select for my PC.

What I find curious is that we can't do this and have them all be bisexual.

Perhaps Bioware could use a subtle in game cue early on in the narrative and give their characters slightly different facets which would be shown to different players (not needing something as crude as an orientation toggle during character creation....). This would have the effect of keeping characters natures more their own and not so transperantly dependant on the player. A little more work but less than needing to include more characters.

This is acceptable. While the idea of LIs being available for all shouldn't be changed, we can do so with nuance.

...just wow...stop doing this...

No, that was warranted.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 juin 2013 - 11:01 .

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't really understand why you accuse everyone that disagrees with you a homophobe.

Then I guess you don't understand the definition of the word.

That's what the majority of these "anti-gay character"/"anti-romance"/"anti all-bi" arguments are rooted in, whether their proponents realize it or not.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 juin 2013 - 11:08 .

[nightscrawl]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Some people believe characters should be able to stand on their own merits and not have every piece of them bound to the PC.

Having played all iterations of the Anders relationship, with both genders, I can say that the non-romance rival Anders is my favorite way to play. I don't really feel that the romance adds anything significant to his characterization or his development, and it plays the same either way. With Anders in particular, both friend and rival versions, the romance adds a bit of obsessiveness to his personality, but that's pretty much it. That's just my take on it, of course.

So, I don't think that it necessarily follows that "every piece of [a character is] bound to the PC." Some characters (Isabela, and Fenris to a lesser degree) have lingering issues that are worked out during the romance because those issues specifically relate to relationships or sex. I don't see anything wrong with this aspect as long as it is appropriate for the character and his or her history.

I think it is entirely possible to have fulfilling friend/rival, romance/non-romance relationships with all of the companions in DA2. Even in DAO, the non-romance friends are happy to have you as their friend.

[fchopin]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, that was warranted.

May i ask why it was warranted?

[Cheylus]

Just my experience with DA2, take it as you please:
I didn't romance anyone in my first playthrough, because I was still waiting for characters to be interesting, multidimensionnal and actually lovable. To me, characters in this game were made to be romances by being stereotypes (Anders excepted, maybe)...
I was more attracted by Morrigan and Alistair to be honest, because I liked the characters before I "loved" them.