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Considering EA's trend chasing policy the next ME game will be about....


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#76
HellbirdIV

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El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Locust are natives of Sera, they are not aliens at all.


Well they are technically 'aliens' by a number of definitions.

They are from another planet. It's just that we invaded THEIR planet first, and they want it back.

They are alien to us - unknown / foreign attackers who live somewhere we cannot. They're different.

And they ARE invading us. And yeah, you could also argue that the HUMANS are the invaders, so it's an Alien Invasion story that we're playing as the invaders in.

#77
crimzontearz

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Actually...locusts are offsprings of mutated humans....

#78
TheProtheans

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The only aliens that really invaded were the geth, and I would hardly call that a typical invasion.
The Reapers were just doing maintenance, you would not call trimming your garden an invasion.

Not the typical Hollywood invasions.

#79
Ninja Stan

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iakus wrote...

Just a point of detail, but doesn't EA require all its games to have an online component?  Be it multiplayer, social media tie-in, or whatever?  Isn't that "meddling" to a degree?

You can say your job allows you a lot of freedom, but how free are you if you have to show up at 9am and work until 6pm every work day? ;) Seriously, though, the online requirement is known beforehand and BioWare can determine for themselves what kind of online interaction might make for a good game. Just because EA doesn't "meddle" or interfere with the creative process doesn't mean they don't have certain requirements for their games, like an online component (you know, due to online and social gaming being huge right now) or ensuring no terms/names are being used that might be offensive in regions where EA sells games, or multiplatform releases, or DLC, or whatever.

#80
Ninja Stan

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Sheepie Crusher wrote...

1. I don't know how much say BW has but what I do know is that their recent games have been less and less RPG and more and more action

You don't know how much say BioWare has and yet you made the declaration that they were having less and less with each game. You know that faster paced action games generally sell better than straight RPGs, right? DAO was seen as a quintessential RPG, but it was considered slow. The plot was super huge, Orzammar took up half the game, combat was slow, and whenever you entered dialogue, you stopped and went into talking heads mode. So they changed things for DA2. Mass Effect 1 used more RPG rules for combat rather than player skill, which didn't work for a shooter. So they changed things for ME2.

However much you like a straight RPG, gamers seem to have been trending toward faster paced games, shooters, and more cinematic game experiences. Trend-chasing? Maybe, but no more trend-chasing than people wanting to work in the videogame industry or wanting promotions and raises. I mean, everyone does that! ;)

I also know that DA2 was aimed at the Call Of Duty audience and I have a hard time believing it was Bioware's idea
source: http://n4g.com/news/...-dutys-audience

Incorrect and incorrectly reported by those who have the same knee-jerk reaction you do when you hear that phrase. DAO was arguable a great BioWare RPG, but even DAO sales paled in comparison to huge releases like Call of Duty games and other shooters and action games. The idea was that many of those games contained features similar to level-up mechanics, character interaction and development, inventory systems, crafting, etc., which meant people were enjoying RPG-type game mechanics without knowing or admitting it! BioWare thought that if they could give those types of players, who represented a huge potential new fanbase, the kind of game they wanted, then Bioware could sell more games and addict a whole new group of players to their awesome games.

"We want COD's audience" was less of a "we're going to abandon RPGs for shooters" statement and more of a "action game fans might already be playing RPGs and don't know it."

Bioware is responsible for Bioware games, problem is Bioware answers to EA aand EA answers it's shareholders. the shareholders want to make money, the easiest way to make money is by copying whats popular, problem is: what is popular and what is right for the game are rarely the same things

Here's where we're going to disagree.

the easiest way to make money is by copying whats popular

Disagree. If a game is seen by the general audience as a direct copy, it's generally not going to do well and you might open yourself up to lawsuits. But similar games, settings, and concepts sell well because they're popular. Shooters were super popular a couple of years ago, so everyone wanted to make a shooter. While many had similar mechanics and controls, stories, settings, characters, and even visuals were usually different, and several franchises became really popular. Zombie games are super popular now, and while many wil have similar gameplay and settings, the stories, characters, and visuals will be different. "Copying what's popular," as you describe it, is a way to reduce risk. If you were spending millions of dollars developing an entertainment product, you'd want to minimize the risk of losing all of it too.

problem is: what is popular and what is right for the game are rarely the same things

If making something because it's popular is going to reduce your risk and make you more money, then it's more likely to be right for the game if you want that game to succeed in the marketplace. Your definition of "right for the game" is "what I want for my $60." BioWare and EA's definition of "right for the game" is "what fits the story and gameplay" and "what helps sell the game we've invested millions of dollars on." BioWare and EA have reasons for making the decisions they make, but they might not be obvious or even intuitive to the gamers whose only risk is $60. Companies are risking millions of dollars and potentially the livelihoods of their employees, not to mention their reputations and other people's (their investors) money.


I am not saying EA wants to drive costumers away, what I am saying is that EA thinks it can sales by forcing as many popular gameplay and story elements as they can, essentially trying to appeal to everyone

Yes, EA wants its games to appeal to as many potential customers as possible. Because they want to sell to as many of those people as they can. They are a business who make products to sell. They sell products to make money, and the more they sell, the more money they make. To do this, they are giving players popular features and gameplay, familiar stories and recognizable franchises. Reduce the risk of losing their investment on the product. Increase potential for recouping expenses and maybe make a profit on the game.

It's what they do. Because they are a business. Operating with budgets orders of magnitude greater than any of us will ever make in our lifetimes. :)

#81
crimzontearz

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Incorrect and incorrectly reported by those who have the same knee-jerk reaction you do when you hear that phrase. DAO was arguable a great BioWare RPG, but even DAO sales paled in comparison to huge releases like Call of Duty games and other shooters and action games. The idea was that many of those games contained features similar to level-up mechanics, character interaction and development, inventory systems, crafting, etc., which meant people were enjoying RPG-type game mechanics without knowing or admitting it! BioWare thought that if they could give those types of players, who represented a huge potential new fanbase, the kind of game they wanted, then Bioware could sell more games and addict a whole new group of players to their awesome games.

"We want COD's audience" was less of a "we're going to abandon RPGs for shooters" statement and more of a "action game fans might already be playing RPGs and don't know it."

ok then pray tell......HOW do you give the COD crowd the game THEY wanted and at the same time give the dore fanbase the game THEY wanted 

also

progression mechanics ≠ RPG.....


it seriously does not help your case that DA2 had an insanely short dev cycle and people who worked on it called it a rushjob cashgrab

Modifié par crimzontearz, 29 juin 2013 - 07:59 .


#82
Bleachrude

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Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

#83
crimzontearz

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Bleachrude wrote...

Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

A defining characteristic....not THE ONLY defining characteristic

#84
Bleachrude

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crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

A defining characteristic....not THE ONLY defining characteristic


Which ME3 does have...but let's talk about consequences from choice which I assume most people think ME3 did not have.

Contrast ME1 with ME3. In ME1, the only bad time you are "punished" for a choice is if you don't have high enough renegade/paragon to talk down Wrex and even here, the game gives you an out in that if you did his personal quest BEFORE, you automatically could talk him down.

Go renegade and kill all the colonists? You lose a little bit of xp instead of the paragon option. Go paragon and save the council and the only consequence is that some alliance ships get destroyed (and you find that out only in ME2).

As much as ME1 gets lauded as being a true RPG, there's no wrong choice (other than Wrex) in the game whenever you have to make a choice.  You can be a complete tool towards your bosses and companions or be a complete paragon of virtue and it doesn't matter in the game itself.

Now compare this with both ME2 and ME3 which are considered "less of a RPG" than ME1. ME2 has the whole suicide mission going for it but ME3 has entire arcs (Rannoch and Tuchanka) which involve picking the right choice.

Even as something as simple as the overheard conversations where you listen in have more of an effect on the game (Do you give the PTSD asari the gun?) has more of an effect/impact on the game than all the decisions in ME!.

So, exactly which one is the RPG again?

#85
crimzontearz

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Bleachrude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

A defining characteristic....not THE ONLY defining characteristic


Which ME3 does have...but let's talk about consequences from choice which I assume most people think ME3 did not have.

Contrast ME1 with ME3. In ME1, the only bad time you are "punished" for a choice is if you don't have high enough renegade/paragon to talk down Wrex and even here, the game gives you an out in that if you did his personal quest BEFORE, you automatically could talk him down.

Go renegade and kill all the colonists? You lose a little bit of xp instead of the paragon option. Go paragon and save the council and the only consequence is that some alliance ships get destroyed (and you find that out only in ME2).

As much as ME1 gets lauded as being a true RPG, there's no wrong choice (other than Wrex) in the game whenever you have to make a choice.  You can be a complete tool towards your bosses and companions or be a complete paragon of virtue and it doesn't matter in the game itself.

Now compare this with both ME2 and ME3 which are considered "less of a RPG" than ME1. ME2 has the whole suicide mission going for it but ME3 has entire arcs (Rannoch and Tuchanka) which involve picking the right choice.

Even as something as simple as the overheard conversations where you listen in have more of an effect on the game (Do you give the PTSD asari the gun?) has more of an effect/impact on the game than all the decisions in ME!.

So, exactly which one is the RPG again?



that was not my point

#86
Cainhurst Crow

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crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

A defining characteristic....not THE ONLY defining characteristic


Which ME3 does have...but let's talk about consequences from choice which I assume most people think ME3 did not have.

Contrast ME1 with ME3. In ME1, the only bad time you are "punished" for a choice is if you don't have high enough renegade/paragon to talk down Wrex and even here, the game gives you an out in that if you did his personal quest BEFORE, you automatically could talk him down.

Go renegade and kill all the colonists? You lose a little bit of xp instead of the paragon option. Go paragon and save the council and the only consequence is that some alliance ships get destroyed (and you find that out only in ME2).

As much as ME1 gets lauded as being a true RPG, there's no wrong choice (other than Wrex) in the game whenever you have to make a choice.  You can be a complete tool towards your bosses and companions or be a complete paragon of virtue and it doesn't matter in the game itself.

Now compare this with both ME2 and ME3 which are considered "less of a RPG" than ME1. ME2 has the whole suicide mission going for it but ME3 has entire arcs (Rannoch and Tuchanka) which involve picking the right choice.

Even as something as simple as the overheard conversations where you listen in have more of an effect on the game (Do you give the PTSD asari the gun?) has more of an effect/impact on the game than all the decisions in ME!.

So, exactly which one is the RPG again?



that was not my point



Your point was that a progression mechanic isn't the only sole characteristic of an rpg, but than again, nobody said it was.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 juin 2013 - 09:21 .


#87
crimzontearz

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Progession mechanic _IS_ a defining characteristic of RPG...it was always what has separated RPGs from the Adventure games like space quest, grim fandango etc.

Remember, "dialogue/text choice" is not intrinsic to RPGs as pretty much all text based/point and click adventure games fall under that category.

A defining characteristic....not THE ONLY defining characteristic


Which ME3 does have...but let's talk about consequences from choice which I assume most people think ME3 did not have.

Contrast ME1 with ME3. In ME1, the only bad time you are "punished" for a choice is if you don't have high enough renegade/paragon to talk down Wrex and even here, the game gives you an out in that if you did his personal quest BEFORE, you automatically could talk him down.

Go renegade and kill all the colonists? You lose a little bit of xp instead of the paragon option. Go paragon and save the council and the only consequence is that some alliance ships get destroyed (and you find that out only in ME2).

As much as ME1 gets lauded as being a true RPG, there's no wrong choice (other than Wrex) in the game whenever you have to make a choice.  You can be a complete tool towards your bosses and companions or be a complete paragon of virtue and it doesn't matter in the game itself.

Now compare this with both ME2 and ME3 which are considered "less of a RPG" than ME1. ME2 has the whole suicide mission going for it but ME3 has entire arcs (Rannoch and Tuchanka) which involve picking the right choice.

Even as something as simple as the overheard conversations where you listen in have more of an effect on the game (Do you give the PTSD asari the gun?) has more of an effect/impact on the game than all the decisions in ME!.

So, exactly which one is the RPG again?



that was not my point



Your point was that a progression mechanic isn't the only sole characteristic of an rpg, but than again, nobody said it was.

stan equated playing a skinner box progression in cod to basically being a closeted RPG lover

#88
Bleachrude

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So then why does having a better combat system automatically make something "dumber" as the OP implies?

Or that ME3 is not a RPG and that going forward we will fight alien invasions?

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.

#89
JamesFaith

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Bleachrude wrote...

So then why does having a better combat system automatically make something "dumber" as the OP implies?

Or that ME3 is not a RPG and that going forward we will fight alien invasions?

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.



When I agreed with you on this, it is lost fight. Supporters of "ME3 isn't RPG" would just claim that this and that wasn't enough by their opinion.

Better question would be - "What disqualified ME3 as RPG?

#90
AlexMBrennan

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What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.

I get the impression that you don't understand what RPG actually means - weapon customisation certainly has nothing to do with it. Wikipedia has an article.

The single most egregious feature which made ME3 less of an RPG than the previous titles: Action mode - making these decisions is what separates RPGs from plain action games.
Less egregiously, the increased use of auto dialogue and the removal of most neutral (i.e. sensible) dialogue options.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 29 juin 2013 - 11:03 .


#91
crimzontearz

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JamesFaith wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

So then why does having a better combat system automatically make something "dumber" as the OP implies?

Or that ME3 is not a RPG and that going forward we will fight alien invasions?

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.



When I agreed with you on this, it is lost fight. Supporters of "ME3 isn't RPG" would just claim that this and that wasn't enough by their opinion.

Better question would be - "What disqualified ME3 as RPG?

lack of squad customization, poorer dialogue, railroading, autodialogue.....I am not saying ME3 is less of an RPG, i am saying there WAS a tradeoff, that development time was short and that stan's statement was bogus (and in reference to DA2 at that)

#92
Bleachrude

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.

I get the impression that you don't understand what RPG actually means - weapon customisation certainly has nothing to do with it. Wikipedia has an article.

The single most egregious feature which made ME3 less of an RPG than the previous titles: Action mode - making these decisions is what separates RPGs from plain action games.
Less egregiously, the increased use of auto dialogue and the removal of most neutral (i.e. sensible) dialogue options.


????

Action mode?

Um, are you talking about STORY mode, which stands in direct contrast with the "BW just wants to turn it into a FPS". That mode, more than anything, is direct support for those that aren't interested in the gameplay elements but are interested in the stoy itself.

The use of auto-dialogue doesn't have anything to do with being a RPG since in most other RPGs wih named characters, that is way more common to have auto-dialogue. Geralt from the Witcher has about the same amount of auto-dialogue and that's a RPG.

The loss of the neutral option I think has more to do with two things. the reworking of the paragon/renegade system and the fact BW saw no reason to give an option which does not matter. You'll notice that ME3, every decision or choice involving paragon/renegade points you can offer your own opinion.
.

#93
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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Why ME3 is currently getting flak for not being a RPG when ME2 had the least RPG elements of the entire series  is beyond me.

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 30 juin 2013 - 12:24 .


#94
crimzontearz

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there is an action mode


the fact you ignore its existence is kinda telling

http://www.pcgamer.c...mode-explained/

#95
Bleachrude

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crimzontearz wrote...

there is an action mode


the fact you ignore its existence is kinda telling

http://www.pcgamer.c...mode-explained/


*LOL*

Totally forgot about that mode since I don't use it myself.

So ME3 has action mode for those not interested in the story and story mode for those not interested in the combat.

re: Squad customization
You never have access to your full party right from the start in the ME franchise. There has always been some pacing of how your companions join you (Dragon age is the same as well).

Now, the fact that you get Legion (ME2) and the VS (ME3) somewhat too late I do see as a pacing problem but not indication that ME3 lacks customization/RPG label.

That's more to do with the fact that there is an actual storyline and one with more of a time pressure attached to it.

#96
crimzontearz

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Bleachrude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

there is an action mode


the fact you ignore its existence is kinda telling

http://www.pcgamer.c...mode-explained/


*LOL*

Totally forgot about that mode since I don't use it myself.

So ME3 has action mode for those not interested in the story and story mode for those not interested in the combat.

re: Squad customization
You never have access to your full party right from the start in the ME franchise. There has always been some pacing of how your companions join you (Dragon age is the same as well).

Now, the fact that you get Legion (ME2) and the VS (ME3) somewhat too late I do see as a pacing problem but not indication that ME3 lacks customization/RPG label.

That's more to do with the fact that there is an actual storyline and one with more of a time pressure attached to it.


again it is telling you confuse squad selection and squad customization......-facepalm-

Modifié par crimzontearz, 30 juin 2013 - 12:52 .


#97
Bleachrude

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crimzontearz wrote...

again it is telling you confuse squad selection and squad customization......-facepalm-


I already mentioned that ME3 has higher squad customization than ME2 so if ME3 is a trend,....

What do you mean by squad customization if not weapon, powers and armour? The only thing lacking when compared to ME1 in squad customization would be armour otherwise powers and weapons easily match ME1 and exceed ME2

#98
crimzontearz

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Bleachrude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

again it is telling you confuse squad selection and squad customization......-facepalm-


I already mentioned that ME3 has higher squad customization than ME2 so if ME3 is a trend,....

What do you mean by squad customization if not weapon, powers and armour? The only thing lacking when compared to ME1 in squad customization would be armour otherwise powers and weapons easily match ME1 and exceed ME2

in ME1 squaddies have as many powers and passives and skills (minus persuasion) as Shepard and can be given proper armor with the same potential as Shepard.....in ME2 and 3 (to a less degree in 3) they are less complex than Shepard ...hell in ME2 they are little more than power based moving turrets

I will be happy once ME games return to the original paradigm and all squaddies are as functional  and customizable as shepard....also, squadmates have weapon restrictions in ME 2 and 3

Modifié par crimzontearz, 30 juin 2013 - 01:46 .


#99
Bleachrude

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Now you're changing the goal-post.

The claim is that ME3 is a trend and that ME4 will follow that.

Given that ME3;s squad customization is more extensive than ME2's, wouldn't this be a GOOD trend from your perspective then?

(that said, in ME1 squadmates were limited another way...they didn't get as many skillpoints as shepard...wasnt it something like 75 skillpoints to your own 100 at max level 60)

#100
crimzontearz

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Bleachrude wrote...

Now you're changing the goal-post.

The claim is that ME3 is a trend and that ME4 will follow that.

Given that ME3;s squad customization is more extensive than ME2's, wouldn't this be a GOOD trend from your perspective then?

(that said, in ME1 squadmates were limited another way...they didn't get as many skillpoints as shepard...wasnt it something like 75 skillpoints to your own 100 at max level 60)


they did because they had no social or class specialty skill....everything else was identical


also, you might have missed this but I was arguing about a statement regarding DA2....while I agree the trend, mechanically, is reversing in ME3 that is not the case in DA....also, while ME has more dialogue the railroading, autodialogue and qualiry f the dialogue itself marr the experience, sadly.....especially the autodialogue