276 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

crimzontearz wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

So then why does having a better combat system automatically make something "dumber" as the OP implies?

Or that ME3 is not a RPG and that going forward we will fight alien invasions?

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.

When I agreed with you on this, it is lost fight. Supporters of "ME3 isn't RPG" would just claim that this and that wasn't enough by their opinion.

Better question would be - "What disqualified ME3 as RPG?

lack of squad customization, poorer dialogue, railroading, autodialogue.....I am not saying ME3 is less of an RPG, i am saying there WAS a tradeoff, that development time was short and that stan's statement was bogus (and in reference to DA2 at that)

But all three of those I highlighted were in mass effect 1 and 2. You did end up getting railroaded into completeing certain missions in certain ways only, and not given alternatives than the very limited ones provided, often only resulting in a dichotomy style choice of A or B. ME1 has entire sections and arcs of bad dialouge, noveria's arc being one of the worst by far, on par with any section of mass effect 3's bad dialouge, if not more so. And don't even bring up autodialouge if your not prepared to talk about mass effect 1's false choice dialouge as well.

[crimzontearz]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

So then why does having a better combat system automatically make something "dumber" as the OP implies?

Or that ME3 is not a RPG and that going forward we will fight alien invasions?

What exactly in ME3 shows "less of a RPG flags" than previous installments?

It's not the progression system...that's very robust and I haven't seen much complaints (the major one being that too much freedom has resulted in the game becoming too easy).

It's not that ME3 doesn't have different content based on your choices (even though Grissom Academy is available in all run throughs, the feel of the mission is much different with Jack alive versus Prangley in charge)

The customization options for weapons is more diverse than either game beforehand and the armour selection while not as extensive for your team-mates as ME1, it _IS_ moreso than the previous installment in the franchise.

When I agreed with you on this, it is lost fight. Supporters of "ME3 isn't RPG" would just claim that this and that wasn't enough by their opinion.

Better question would be - "What disqualified ME3 as RPG?

lack of squad customization, poorer dialogue, railroading, autodialogue.....I am not saying ME3 is less of an RPG, i am saying there WAS a tradeoff, that development time was short and that stan's statement was bogus (and in reference to DA2 at that)

But all three of those I highlighted were in mass effect 1 and 2. You did end up getting railroaded into completeing certain missions in certain ways only, and not given alternatives than the very limited ones provided, often only resulting in a dichotomy style choice of A or B. ME1 has entire sections and arcs of bad dialouge, noveria's arc being one of the worst by far, on par with any section of mass effect 3's bad dialouge, if not more so. And don't even bring up autodialouge if your not prepared to talk about mass effect 1's false choice dialouge as well.

never said ME1 was perfect but I had more freedom and as much as dialogue was less complex than it would have appeared it is still better than ME3's

[remydat]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The single most egregious feature which made ME3 less of an RPG than the previous titles: Action mode - making these decisions is what separates RPGs from plain action games.
Less egregiously, the increased use of auto dialogue and the removal of most neutral (i.e. sensible) dialogue options.

That feature is entirely optional.  If you are a hardcore RPGer then don't play in that mode.  If you like ME3 for the FPS aspects of it then you can play action mode.  Having options that makes a game appealing to RPGers and FPSers is not evidence that a game is less of an RPG when selectiong that option is entirely optional and has no impact if you choose the other option.

You are basically complaining that a game is not an RPG because it has a gameplay option that you as an RPGer probably never choose and hence it has no bearing on your gameplay experience.  That is just weird.

[remydat]

Also why do people think Bioware was some non-profit that cared only about the fans and fulfilling their vision prior to EA buying them? Bioware was founded to make money. The founders eventually joined forces with a Private Equity Fund (Elevation Partners) to make money. They then eventually agreed to be bought by EA to make money. If people think that without EA, Bioware would have remained untainted by the evolving demands of the gaming industry, they are delusional. That or they would have probably witnessed Bioware go bust like a lot of the companies in the gaming industy.

All that really happened is EA bought them and perhaps sped up the journey down a road they would have likely taken with or without EA if they had any desire to make money which Bioware obiviously did because no one put a gun to their head and forced them to accept Elevation or EA's offer.

[Iakus]

remydat wrote...

That feature is entirely optional.  If you are a hardcore RPGer then don't play in that mode.  If you like ME3 for the FPS aspects of it then you can play action mode.  Having options that makes a game appealing to RPGers and FPSers is not evidence that a game is less of an RPG when selectiong that option is entirely optional and has no impact if you choose the other option.

You are basically complaining that a game is not an RPG because it has a gameplay option that you as an RPGer probably never choose and hence it has no bearing on your gameplay experience.  That is just weird.

I suspect a big chunk of the autodialogue and lack of a neutral option was a result of adding in action mode.  Fewer dialogue actions would make it run more smoothly and be more "cinematic"

[AlexMBrennan]

remydat wrote...

That feature is entirely optional. If you are a hardcore RPGer then don't play in that mode.

The fact that they included the feature and spent development time on it does, however, allow me to make certain deductions about who Bioware thinks their target audience is.

[JamesFaith]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

remydat wrote...

That feature is entirely optional. If you are a hardcore RPGer then don't play in that mode.

The fact that they included the feature and spent development time on it does, however, allow me to make certain deductions about who Bioware thinks their target audience is.

People with different taste?

[remydat]

iakus wrote...

I suspect a big chunk of the autodialogue and lack of a neutral option was a result of adding in action mode.  Fewer dialogue actions would make it run more smoothly and be more "cinematic"

Still doesn't mean it is not an RPG which was the point being made.  No RPG allows you to decide each and every conversation.  The point of dialogue choices is so that you can have an impact on the story.  From ME1 to ME3, much of the chit chat on the Normandy was pointless.  It was game filler and they did me a favor by making that chit chat auto dialogue.  I don't want to waste time making dialogue choices that offer no real impact to the game.  When you have chit chat that is important to the story you get a choice.  For example, when you have to steer EDI either towards or away from a relationship with Joker you get a choice.  That is what matters.  Not the random chatter bout James making f**king eggs for breakfast.  I don't need a dialogue choice for that.

[remydat]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The fact that they included the feature and spent development time on it does, however, allow me to make certain deductions about who Bioware thinks their target audience is.

Umm the fact they included the regular mode means they think their target audience is both RPGers as well as potentially more FPSers.  That doesn't mean it is not a RPG.  All it means is they developed it with enough flexibility to appeal to both types of gamers.

I mean seriously dude you have probably never played Action mode so crying about it as if it affects your playing regular mode is just crying about something just to cry.  Why don't you enjoy the game in the mode you like to play it in without begrudging Bioware from offerring a mode to a different style of gamer that once again has no impact on your chosen mode of play?  It reeks of selfishness and a sense of entitlement.

Modifié par remydat, 30 juin 2013 - 06:16 .

[Dextro Milk]

Mass Effect, a game series where they pound on the fact of "choices" and how awesome the game is for letting you pick your own path...

BioWare then adds a mode that takes away any and all choice. Remy, it's just plain silly to have added that mode in the first place.

[Iakus]

remydat wrote...

iakus wrote...

I suspect a big chunk of the autodialogue and lack of a neutral option was a result of adding in action mode.  Fewer dialogue actions would make it run more smoothly and be more "cinematic"

Still doesn't mean it is not an RPG which was the point being made.  No RPG allows you to decide each and every conversation.  The point of dialogue choices is so that you can have an impact on the story.  From ME1 to ME3, much of the chit chat on the Normandy was pointless.  It was game filler and they did me a favor by making that chit chat auto dialogue.  I don't want to waste time making dialogue choices that offer no real impact to the game.  When you have chit chat that is important to the story you get a choice.  For example, when you have to steer EDI either towards or away from a relationship with Joker you get a choice.  That is what matters.  Not the random chatter bout James making f**king eggs for breakfast.  I don't need a dialogue choice for that.

Yeah perish the thought that a player gets to define their character beyond the minimum the plot requires.

Me, I like having more than two opportunities to selevct dialogue options in a ten minute conversation.

I like having options besides "nice" and "mean"

I like "chit chatting" with companions and "pointless filler" It lets me establish a personality and lets characters react to said personality.

[AlexMBrennan]

I mean seriously dude you have probably never played Action mode so crying about it as if it affects your playing regular mode is just crying about something just to cry

The question was why I think that ME3 is less of an RPG than the other titles in the series, and that was my answer - Bioware is trying to make to appeal to appeal to the larger, more mainstream action audience as shown by the facts I mentioned.

Obviously Bioware is free to do whatever they please, up to and including a Command & Conquer strategy game, but that doesn't change the objective fact that ME3 is less of a hard RPG than its predecessors.

What you or I think about that fact is immaterial.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

remydat wrote...

That feature is entirely optional. If you are a hardcore RPGer then don't play in that mode.

The fact that they included the feature and spent development time on it does, however, allow me to make certain deductions about who Bioware thinks their target audience is.

Ahh yes, how dare anyone play the game you like and not enjoy it for the same reason you do. Truely having more freedom for everyone to pick what playstyle best suites them is a travesty among all the heavens and the earth.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 30 juin 2013 - 06:45 .

[remydat]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Mass Effect, a game series where they pound on the fact of "choices" and how awesome the game is for letting you pick your own path...

BioWare then adds a mode that takes away any and all choice. Remy, it's just plain silly to have added that mode in the first place.

But if it is a mode you don't play it is just plain stupid to cry about it.  The mode was added to appeal to a different style of gamer.  If you are not that gamer and hence don't play action mode then why the f**k do you care?  It is irrelevant.

[JamesFaith]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Mass Effect, a game series where they pound on the fact of "choices" and how awesome the game is for letting you pick your own path...

BioWare then adds a mode that takes away any and all choice. Remy, it's just plain silly to have added that mode in the first place.

So BW in game based of choices give you choice to choose your own path through game in different modes...

It is just another choice, no one force it to you.

[remydat]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The question was why I think that ME3 is less of an RPG than the other titles in the series, and that was my answer - Bioware is trying to make to appeal to appeal to the larger, more mainstream action audience as shown by the facts I mentioned.

Obviously Bioware is free to do whatever they please, up to and including a Command & Conquer strategy game, but that doesn't change the objective fact that ME3 is less of a hard RPG than its predecessors.

What you or I think about that fact is immaterial.

Yes the question is why you think it is less of an RPG and your answer was because it has an optional mode that from the sounds of it you never play.  That is a sh*tty answer.  

Do you realise the sheer insanity of that position?  This game is less of an RPG because the mode I play 100% of the time has choices but the mode I play 0% of the time does not. 

Not only that you explained this mode that you play 0% of the time as the most egregious example of why it was not an RPG.  How in the world can something be the most egregious example of something when you have a choice to NEVER PLAY IT?  If action mode was the only mode, you would have a point.  

Modifié par remydat, 30 juin 2013 - 06:53 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

it seems some people don't understand that there are actually people who don't want or don't care about role playing

[remydat]

iakus wrote...

Yeah perish the thought that a player gets to define their character beyond the minimum the plot requires.

Me, I like having more than two opportunities to selevct dialogue options in a ten minute conversation.

I like having options besides "nice" and "mean"

I like "chit chatting" with companions and "pointless filler" It lets me establish a personality and lets characters react to said personality.

Except it doesn't define the character.  It has no bearing on how your character develops in any real or meaningful way.

And no one is saying you can't have those preferences.  The issue is pretending those preferences define an RPG.  This is simply false.  The vast majority of RPGs don't waste time with idle chatter.  The Witcher 2 is a great RPG and there is very little dialogue choices that represent idle chatter.  When you have a choice it typically changes something in the game.  This idea that an RPG must have idle chatter because some gamers like it is simply false.

[Cainhurst Crow]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

it seems some people don't understand that there are actually people who don't want or don't care about role playing

[remydat]

JamesFaith wrote...

So BW in game based of choices give you choice to choose your own path through game in different modes...

It is just another choice, no one force it to you.

Apparently the only time choice is choice is when it conforms with what particular gamers want.  Apparently a choice is not a choice when you have to suffer the indignity of it existing despite the fact you actually never make that choice.

You know what really pisses me off.  The fact that Bioware gives me a choice in difficulty.  I mean how dare they have a casual option that is a cake walk when I only want to play the game on insanity?  How dare they?

[Dextro Milk]

Remy, are you daft? I said it is plain silly to add a mode that detracts elements that make the game unique. Mass Effect 3's combat is not the selling point.

I'm not upset about it, nor am I "crying". I just think it's funny. And the fact you are getting your panties in a bunch defending it also makes me lol.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

it seems some people don't understand that there are actually people who don't want or don't care about role playing

*snip*

REALLY.I couldn't believe it myself,but it seems they exist.

[Sir DeLoria]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

it seems some people don't understand that there are actually people who don't want or don't care about role playing

Then don't play a bloody role playing game! There's plenty of other scifi action shooters/FPS games out there.