276 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryuji2]

remydat wrote...

Well that is my point.  People are making unsubstantiated claims and passing them off as fact.  There is absolutely no evidence that Action mode was the reason for auto-dialogue.  Those small chit chats were pretty pointless.  Most RPGers don't actually allow you to have small chit chats that actually don't further the story at all. Bioware could have simply decided it was a waste of resources.

Small chit-chats are meant to immerse one into the world/universe the creator built. Everything, big or small, be it special missions to save a colony, cure/destroy the genophage, or even overhear people talking about their relatives being attacked in the Citadel coup, is meant to immerse one further. They aren't pointless. Just because some weren't done well enough doesn't mean that it was pointless.

a Role-Playing Game without immersion, even from small events, isn't being a very good RPG. Especially for something like Mass Effect.

Modifié par Ryuji2, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:25 .

[remydat]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Proof. Show me. 

Show me how Action Mode improved sales Remy, because that is what I am arguing. You call me out for saying it is silly, and you have no proof to even show that it helped at all to bring more mindless idiots into Mass Effect's fanbase.

Umm, you made the original claim.  My counter claim is that the aim was to appeal to a broader audience which is a legit business reason for doing something.  The proof of my claim is Bioware came out and admitted before the game was released that it was designed to appeal to a broader audience.  I have already provided the links that have said as much.

So my argument has already been proven.  We know why they added the mode and we know that the reason they gave ie to appeal to a broader audience is a legit business reason to do something.  So how can you say something is silly when you don't have any evidence that Action Mode resulted in lost sales.  Again do you understand that Bioware is in the business to make money?  I am not saying Action was 100% a reason for it to sell well.  I am saying you have no real reason to claim it is silly except your own bias because you obviously don't like it so you presume it must be silly because you don't like it.

[remydat]

Ryuji2 wrote...

Small chit-chats are meant to immerse one into the world/universe the creator built. Everything, big or small, be it special missions to save a colony, cure/destroy the genophage, or even overhear people talking about their relatives being attacked in the Citadel coup, is meant to immerse one further. They aren't pointless. Just because some weren't done well enough doesn't mean that it was pointless.

a Role-Playing Game without immersion, even from small events, isn't being a very good RPG. Especially for something like Mass Effect.

The part I was referring to as meaningless was having those small chit chats being dialogue options when the options given don't do anything for the story.  In ME1 you had a lot of dialogue options that could have just been autodialogue because the option you choose didn't actually immerse you into anything.  They were false dialogue choices in which the character responded with pretty much the same dialogue more or less.

And the further point is name me another RPG that has all this random chit chats as dialogue options?  Most RPGs I play only give you a choice to the extent it impacts the story.  Otherwise, it is autodialogue.  Is Witcher 2 not a great RPG because pretty sure it does not have a lot of dialogue options for random chit chat?

[Dextro Milk]

No, give me proof Remy. Proof that Action Mode was soooooooooooo good of an idea that it helped them out with sales.

Proof. Now.

I won't stop asking Remy. You made the claim first. Give me your proof.

[remydat]

Sorry Dextro, you are confused.

Dextro Milk wrote...

Mass Effect, a game series where they pound on the fact of "choices" and how awesome the game is for letting you pick your own path...

BioWare then adds a mode that takes away any and all choice. Remy, it's just plain silly to have added that mode in the first place.

That was your statement. You said it is silly to have added the mode in the first place.

Remydat wrote...

But if it is a mode you don't play it is just plain stupid to cry about it. The mode was added to appeal to a different style of gamer. If you are not that gamer and hence don't play action mode then why the f**k do you care? It is irrelevant.

The above was my response to you. It says clearly that the mode was added to appeal to a different style of gamer. I already provided you a link where Bioware admits this. This conversation is back on page 5. So sorry, my claim is proven.

To prove your claim that it is silly the burden of proof is on you to prove that deciding to appeal to a differnet syle of gamer while still having an RPG mode failed. You have no evidence that it did so you are trying to pretend like I claimed something I did not.

[Ryuji2]

remydat wrote...

Ryuji2 wrote...

Small chit-chats are meant to immerse one into the world/universe the creator built. Everything, big or small, be it special missions to save a colony, cure/destroy the genophage, or even overhear people talking about their relatives being attacked in the Citadel coup, is meant to immerse one further. They aren't pointless. Just because some weren't done well enough doesn't mean that it was pointless.

a Role-Playing Game without immersion, even from small events, isn't being a very good RPG. Especially for something like Mass Effect.

The part I was referring to as meaningless was having those small chit chats being dialogue options when the options given don't do anything for the story.  In ME1 you had a lot of dialogue options that could have just been autodialogue because the option you choose didn't actually immerse you into anything.  They were false dialogue choices in which the character responded with pretty much the same dialogue more or less.

And the further point is name me another RPG that has all this random chit chats as dialogue options?  Most RPGs I play only give you a choice to the extent it impacts the story.  Otherwise, it is autodialogue.  Is Witcher 2 not a great RPG because pretty sure it does not have a lot of dialogue options for random chit chat?

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the story to immerse someone. I could talk to a hanar about how he describes an average day on Kahje and enjoy that BioWare put that little bit in there. Would have absolutely nothing to do with the Reaper threat but that's not the point. Again, the point is to immerse someone into the world/universe of the creator.

Elder Scrolls games have craptons of dialogue and even instances of overhearing conversations. This vegetable seller says she goes to the tavern to relax when she's done from work.  Does have anything to do with, say, daedra or dragons or anything? Nope. That instance in of itself it meant to immerse you into the lore and world. and there are plenty of those instances.

Same thing for Final Fantasy games regarding small bits of chit-chat or overhearing conversations. Or Secret of Mana, Paper Mario and its sequels, Jade Empire, KotOR 1 and 2, Tales games, Dragon Quest games, Fallout games, Persona games, Fable games, and many more.

Modifié par Ryuji2, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:56 .

[Ninja Stan]

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

[remydat]

Ryuji2

Yeah but the Elder Scrolls and Final Fantasy examples you gave are autodialogue. Perhaps we are discussing two different things. I have no issue with random bits of chit chat. The point I am making is those random bits of chit chat work fine as autodialogue ie they just occur without the player having to choose between dialogue options. It is the choosing between dialogue options for random chit chat that slows the game down and destroys the replay value IMO.

I only had two unique ME1 playthroughs for this very reason. It was a chore getting through the game because between the pointless dialogue options that should have been autodialogue, the tedious inventory system, and the tedious scanning planets in a vehicle, it was just a pain in the a** playing the game a third or fourth time. Took too long.  To get more variety in my ME1 decisions I got the interactive comic that allowed me to make the key choices from ME1 without playing the game.  I actually wished they had done a similar comic for ME2 as well.

By contrast, I literally have over 20 ME3 playthroughs because the autodialogue for the chit chat keeps the game moving along and after a few playthroughs, I just played Action Mode and only turned it off when there was the random decision that I knew Action Mode made that I didn't want to make in that particular playthrough. It gives ME3 more replay value because it makes for a quicker game.

Modifié par remydat, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:11 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

They can't, unless they're friends. Not the best policy change.

Was there some specific incident which spurred that one which couldn't have been resolved by other means? People may want to PM with others without having to see everything that person does in their Home feed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

They can't, unless they're friends. Not the best policy change.

Was there some specific incident which spurred that one which couldn't have been resolved by other means? People may want to PM with others without having to see everything that person does in their Home feed.

I think the mods were just tired of getting an endless number of PM's complaining about users and what not.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to have to friend someone to get into a pissfight via PM, but that's just me. Maybe BW hopes we'll settle our differences? 

I do love internet arguments though. The sociopath in me really gets to shine.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:44 .

[darthrevaninlight]

WHAT ME1 TALI WAS SO MUCH MORE THAN A LORE DISPENSER

But that's beside the point.

We aren't saying anything too complicated. We aren't holding to any unfair standards. Merely observance of past and understanding and speculating to what would have been a better path to take. If you have an opposing view, I am happy to discuss it. But I have been doing my best to be fair here, and my assessments and those of my crew have been largely surface level.

Immersion is the larger issue here, an immersion that was not an issue in previous bioware games. So what is the difference between previous bioware games and me3? What is the difference between me2 and me3, system-wise that caused this to happen?

The reason I point to the action mode as the possible cause of this, and the reason I point to the action mode as being a mistake is simply this; you cant serve two masters. Or else you will hate one and love the other.

Why is that? Because we are stuck in time. In this present moment. We cannot move past it and yet we are aware of a past and can use our knowledge to construe together using logic an understanding of time and its movement. This is how we can even comprehend a story. Because a story is made up by using what we know to communicate something translatable.

A story is not easy to create. As a matter of fact, a good story is almost impossible to.

And with two masters of contradictory opinions: the TPSers and the RPGers, it becomes impossible.

Thats not to say that bioware will be incapable of creating a good game while trying to appeal to both; but rather that they must focus on one of them. Or else their priorities will be so screwed up everything will fall apart.

Look at it this way regarding my time statement: you cannot make a bologne sandwich and at the same time bake a cookie. You must take separate time for each of them and ensure you focus on each one in particular. You do not want any bologne on your cookie and you do not want any chocolate chips in your sandwich.

The action mode appears to be the chocolate chips in my sandwich.

And I want it taken out.

Modifié par darthrevaninlight, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:42 .

[DeinonSlayer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

They can't, unless they're friends. Not the best policy change.

Was there some specific incident which spurred that one which couldn't have been resolved by other means? People may want to PM with others without having to see everything that person does in their Home feed.

I think the mods were just tired of getting an endless number of PM's complaining about users and what not.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to have to friend someone to get into a pissfight, but that's just me. 

I do love internet arguments though. The sociopath in me really gets to shine.

In that case, set up the moderator accounts so they can't receive private messages from people who aren't friends, or add a privacy option to all accounts restricting PM's to those coming from friends. Problem solved.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

They can't, unless they're friends. Not the best policy change.

Was there some specific incident which spurred that one which couldn't have been resolved by other means? People may want to PM with others without having to see everything that person does in their Home feed.

I think the mods were just tired of getting an endless number of PM's complaining about users and what not.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to have to friend someone to get into a pissfight, but that's just me. 

I do love internet arguments though. The sociopath in me really gets to shine.

In that case, set up the moderator accounts so they can't receive private messages from people who aren't friends, or add a privacy option to all accounts restricting PM's to those coming from friends. Problem solved.

Not that it was the actual reason, but if it was, that really would have worked much better, rather than hampering the efficiency of the site.

[remydat]

darthrevaninlight

By your logic, in order to avoid serving two masters, Bioware should have created ME3 with just one mode and one difficulty setting.  Because right now unless someone has information I don't have all it appears Bioware is doing is creating a base game ie Roleplaying mode on normal difficulty and then from that base game creating a program or algorithm that either makes the choice for the player in Action Mode or adjusts the difficulty down for Story mode or up to for Insanity.

The only thing that changed is that in previous games you could adjust how much TPS you wanted by adjusting the difficultly and Bioware added to that flexibility and gave gamers an option to now adjust how much RPG you wanted by adding Action and Story mode.

So it just seems the RPGers are being terroritorial because they have this sense that ME was their game first and so they are complaining about the fact Bioware gave the TPS gamers a choice that once again has no bearing on the RPGers.

Modifié par remydat, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:23 .

[darthrevaninlight]

Nay, sir.

All I mean is focus on a single genre as your primary. Allow the rest to be sidenotes. Either make me3 a tps and tps largely. Or make it an rpg and rpg largly.

The rpg aspect is my personal preference and not meant to be taken before the larger concept. 

But I have said what I mean to the best of my ability. I have tried my best to communicate what I mean. I hope you do not take offense and that you do not make assumptions about all RPGErs because you dislike what I say.

Modifié par darthrevaninlight, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:37 .

[SpamBot2000]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Hey Dextro Milk, remydat, if you want to continue bickering, take it to PMs.

Get with the times, Ninja Stanley. PMs ARE DISABLED, unless the person is on your friends list. And what does a "friend" list mean if you're going to have to add anyone you vehemently disagree with just to argue with them? As if the general use of "friend" in these amazing futuristic times is not subverting the concept of friendship enough...

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:50 .

[Dextro Milk]

Thanks but no thanks, I would rather not add someone to my friends list when talking to them is akin to talking to a brick wall.

Cya guys later, have fun with Remy, and good luck, you're gonna need it. I'm not coming in this thread again. Too much ignorance tbh.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

they made it more action oriented because RPG's don't sell well.It was a generally futile attempt to attract gamers

Bethesda would love to have a word with you

im sure it's not the RPG elements the reason people buy bethesda games.

[crimzontearz]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

they made it more action oriented because RPG's don't sell well.It was a generally futile attempt to attract gamers

Bethesda would love to have a word with you

im sure it's not the RPG elements the reason people buy bethesda games.

You said RPGS do not sell well, Bethesda games are RPGs and they sell well and are critically acclaimed. Skyrim sold 10 million copies without having to cater to the COD crowd.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

they made it more action oriented because RPG's don't sell well.It was a generally futile attempt to attract gamers

Bethesda would love to have a word with you

im sure it's not the RPG elements the reason people buy bethesda games.

You said RPGS do not sell well, Bethesda games are RPGs and they sell well and are critically acclaimed. Skyrim sold 10 million copies without having to cater to the COD crowd.

RPG elements is not it's selling point,it's because it's open world like GTA.Open world games sell well

[Erez Kristal]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, I'd hardly blame ME3's faults on EA. The story decisions are made by Hudson and Walters, ultimately. It'd be nice if you could blame the big faceless corporation, but it's just real people who are involved in this.

Im with streetmagic on this one. and he knows we dont often agree.
Rightly put streetmagic, rightly put.

[crimzontearz]

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

IntelligentME3Fanboy wrote...

they made it more action oriented because RPG's don't sell well.It was a generally futile attempt to attract gamers

Bethesda would love to have a word with you

im sure it's not the RPG elements the reason people buy bethesda games.

You said RPGS do not sell well, Bethesda games are RPGs and they sell well and are critically acclaimed. Skyrim sold 10 million copies without having to cater to the COD crowd.

RPG elements is not it's selling point,it's because it's open world like GTA.Open world games sell well

Far Cry 3 is an open world game, it did not sell nearly as well.

neither did Saint's row, Darksiders 1-2, RDR and the list goes on. Skyrim has enough RPG elements that if you are not into it at least a little you are screwed AND it is marketed as an RPG. By your coin no game ever is truly an RPG or sells well for being an RPG because there are other features that attract people and I call bull**** on that.