257 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Coyotebay wrote...

When I was going for my masters, I took classes in systems dynamics and quantitative analysis.  One of my projects was building a dynamic model of harbor seals in Alaska, and showing how if you change any of handful of factors by a little bit you cause their population to plummet catastrophically.  You can do the same thing with the Reaper harvest model.  If you take Drake's equation and start with, say, 10,000 worlds with intelligent life on them, probably 1% would be in the advanced stage, with the other 99% somewhere between the stone age and our own 21st century.  So 100 worlds with advanced sapients on them.  The Reapers harvest them, then go away for 50,000 years.  Now you are down to 9,900 worlds with intelligent life on them.  Add back maybe 10 from the million worlds with some form of life on them (and that's generous, as only a tiny fraction of one percernt of these worlds would only be 50,000 years away from producing the next intelligent species), and you have 9,910 total.  During the next 50,000 years, another 1% hit advanced stage, so that's 99 worlds.  The Reapers harvest them.  Now you are down to 9,811 worlds with intelligent life.  In the next 50,000 years, add back another 10 for a total of 9,821.  The Reapers harvest 98 worlds this time, and you are down to 9,723.  You can see where this is going...

Now factor in that the total number of planets supporting life will suffer attrition thorugh the eons, through natural disasters, planets colliding, asteroids, stars going nova...you name it.  So gradually over time the total pool of planets capable of supporting intelligent life diminishes.  Because the Reapers NEVER allow organics OR even synthetics to evolve to where they could terraform other worlds and create new templates for life, the Reapers have capped thte total number of life-giving planets available, while at the same time very quickly reducing the planets with intelligent life on them down to nothing.  The Reapers therefore insure that not only will intelligent life eventually become extinct, but in the long run, so will all life.  For the Catalyst not to see this is the ultimate logical failure of its argument.  And I am sure that is because the writers didn't really figure this out.

I am not sure the point you are making here.  In the Catalysts mind without the Reapers, those 10,000 worlds all get wiped out pretty much within a single cycle of extermination that lasts X numbers of year.  That's it game over. 

Not that I necessarily agree with the numbers but I guess I am not sure why you think that is a problem for the Catalyst as if it is some bleeding heart liberal.  It was charged with preserving life at all costs.  It is allowing life to survive over billions of years of harvesting rather than be exterminated over the course of say a couple hundred thousand years of mass extermination.  

Further, once the Reapers purge earth of humans, after a billion years without humans, who is to say another sentient species does not evolve on earth and the cycle just repeats itself like this everywhere.  Evolution is always occurring. 

However, if the synthetics who want to destory organic life understand anything about evolution then they should  destroy all organic life on earth and poison the planet to ensure sentient organic life can never develop again period.  Destroy Earth's oceans and poison the soil.  That's it game over.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

Do you really think that all this negativity toward the game's ending exists solely within BSN? After checking Kotaku, Forbes, IGN, and others going on about how fans hate the ending, I have every reason to believe that EA/BW totally borked the experience for quite a lot of players. I didn't come to this conclusion observing this forum.

The amount of copies sold is irrelevant. It's part of the Mass Effect franchise, and was greatly hyped. Of course it sold lots of copies.

Well of course there are other people outside of the BSN who likely hated the game.  That is not really the point I was making.  The point is there is no definitive numbers on exactly what percentage of fans hated the game so the widely rejected statement is just an opinion not fact until it can be proven.

And further, if the game sold well and ME4 sells well then oh well, profts still made.  Obviously the ideal state is to please all your fans and make a lot of money.  However, if I have to choose between the two as a business then I choose the latter providing it does not affect future sales of other games. So I truly am interested in whether this outcry ends up affecting the botom line of EA and Bioware. 

Modifié par remydat, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:58 .

[KaiserShep]

I have no doubt in my mind that the game will still make EA and BioWare a lot of money, but how many copies are sold or how much money it makes through downloadable content was never my concern. The Transformers movie franchise made a ****-ton of money, but that didn't stop the franchise from being horrid dreck that got panned critically. That's not to say that any ME game comes even close to being as terrible in any way.

[remydat]

Well ME is technically critically acclaimed given the reviews. As for Transformers, if it made a **** ton of money then it was a success. That movie was never intended to be critically acclaimed. It is a summer action blockbuster not a film looking to win an Oscar for Best Picture.

[Coyotebay]

remydat wrote...

I am not sure the point you are making here.  In the Catalysts mind without the Reapers, those 10,000 worlds all get wiped out pretty much within a single cycle of extermination that lasts X numbers of year.  That's it game over. 

Not that I necessarily agree with the numbers but I guess I am not sure why you think that is a problem for the Catalyst as if it is some bleeding heart liberal.  It was charged with preserving life at all costs.  It is allowing life to survive over billions of years of harvesting rather than be exterminated over the course of say a couple hundred thousand years of mass extermination.  

Further, once the Reapers purge earth of humans, after a billion years without humans, who is to say another sentient species does not evolve on earth and the cycle just repeats itself like this everywhere.  Evolution is always occurring. 

However, if the synthetics who want to destory organic life understand anything about evolution then they should  destroy all organic life on earth and poison the planet to ensure sentient organic life can never develop again period.  Destroy Earth's oceans and poison the soil.  That's it game over.

Again, your twisted logic begins with a conclusion, not a question.  You start from the position that  the Catalyst is right, that synthetics will destroy all intelligent organic life eventually, which is just pure speculation, no different from one organic speices wiping out all other organic species.  The Catalyst is "preserving" life at all costs by ensuring - in statistical numbers - that it will exterminate all intelligent life over time.  So its premise is illogical.  We are not talking about what's "in the Catalyst's mind", we are talking about how mathematically things would play out with these Reaper cycles, and how that totally contradict's the starbrat's plan for "preserving life" by killing it.  And saying that it is still  okay because in a billion years maybe another intelligentrace rises on Earth or elsewhere is ridiculous.  It's like saying it's okay to kill all the dolphins because maybe in a billion years another dolphin-like animal will emerge.

[remydat]

Coyotebay wrote...

Again, your twisted logic begins with a conclusion, not a question.  You start from the position that  the Catalyst is right, that synthetics will destroy all intelligent organic life eventually, which is just pure speculation, no different from one organic speices wiping out all other organic species.  The Catalyst is "preserving" life at all costs by ensuring - in statistical numbers - that it will exterminate all intelligent life over time.  So its premise is illogical.  We are not talking about what's "in the Catalyst's mind", we are talking about how mathematically things would play out with these Reaper cycles, and how that totally contradict's the starbrat's plan for "preserving life" by killing it.  And saying that it is still  okay because in a billion years maybe another intelligentrace rises on Earth or elsewhere is ridiculous.  It's like saying it's okay to kill all the dolphins because maybe in a billion years another dolphin-like animal will emerge.

To me there are separate arguments that you seem to be conflating.  

1.  Is the synthetic threat the Catalyst envisions legit?  
2.  Is his solution the best and only solution?
3.  Does its solution preserve life?

Now I presume we agree on question two that the answer is No.  And obviously if you answer question 1 as No then Question 3 is No as well.  So in my mind there are only two main arguments to discuss.

1.  Is the synthetic threat legit?
4.  Does it's solution preserve life if the answer to question 1 is Yes?

So this is where we seem to be getting hung up.  I have debated with you separately question 1 but when discussing the question of whether its solution preserves life I have been doing so from the perspective that the only meaningful way to discuss that is by assuming the answer to question 1 is yes because if the answer to question 1 is no then again I presume we both agree that question 3 must be no as well.  If the synthetic threat is not legit then obviously its decision to harvest would seem to not preserve life in any meaningful way.

You seem to be confusing my dissecting the discussion into two separate arguments as me endorsing the Catalyst's solution.  I do not endorse his solution because again my answer to question 2 is a firm No.  However, if we put ourselves in the Catalyst shoes and we like the Catalyst came to the conclusion that the answer to question 1 is yes then no matter how grotesque you think the harvest is, harvesting life over billions upon billions of years is still better than that life being completely wiped out by one synthetic threat within the span of a couple hundred thousand years.  That is the grim reality.

So not sure about you but that is how I was taught to debate.  If there are several assumptions or questions then you work through the various combinations of answers, eliminate the ones where there is common ground and debate what is left.  To me that means only question 1 and 4 are real topics of debate unless I have misunderstand your position.

Modifié par remydat, 03 juillet 2013 - 03:15 .

[AlanC9]

Coyotebay wrote...
The Catalyst is "preserving" life at all costs by ensuring - in statistical numbers - that it will exterminate all intelligent life over time.  So its premise is illogical.  We are not talking about what's "in the Catalyst's mind", we are talking about how mathematically things would play out with these Reaper cycles, and how that totally contradict's the starbrat's plan for "preserving life" by killing it.  

As we discussed upthread, the italed conclusion relies on a lot of assumed numbers about how many biospheres are destroyed, how many and how fast worlds achieve that status naturally, how many worlds evolve intelligent life and how fast,  and so on. We don't know those numbers, but we do know three things about them:

1. Those numbers are whatever Bio wants them to be, since Bio designed the MEU.

2. The Reapers are in a good position to learn those numbers.

3. The Reapers are capable of organizing the time and manner of their harvest to suit the observed facts.

There's no evidence that the harvests are decreasing, and no reason for the Reapers not to change tactics if they did see the number of inhabited worlds declining.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 juillet 2013 - 03:31 .

[remydat]

AlanC9 wrote...

As we discussed upthread, the italed conclusion relies on a lot of assumed numbers about how many biospheres are destroyed, how many and how fast worlds achieve that status naturally, how many worlds evolve intelligent life and how fast,  and so on. We don't know those numbers, but we do know three things about them:

1. Those numbers are whatever Bio wants them to be, since Bio designed the MEU.

2. The Reapers are in a good position to learn those numbers.

3. The Reapers are capable of organizing the time and manner of their harvest to suit the observed facts.

There's no evidence that the harvests are decreasing, and no reason for the Reapers not to change tactics if they did see the number of inhabited worlds declining.

Exactly obviously if these worlds were reduced to a number where organic life were in danger of becoming extinct then the Catalyst could simply tweak its plan to prevent that.

Furhtermore there will probably be gaps in the cycles anyways.  There probably comes a point where all advanced civilizations are harvested and the next worlds in line to be harvested won't actually produce sentient space faring organic life for millions or hundreds of millions of years.

All that would mean is the Reapers take a longer nap and wait for the galaxy to catch back up.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
All that would mean is the Reapers take a longer nap and wait for the galaxy to catch back up.

Pretty much, hence the need for a Reaper to watch and activate the signal when needed. I think 50k years has always been a loose estimate.

[TheProtheans]

Do we even know if our toasters would try to wipe us all out?
Not even Mass effect has proof they can wipe out all organic life in a galaxy for eternity.

The closest I saw of the argument was a useless AI doing something useless and then trying to self destruct because he knew he had been truly defeated.
And that thing in Overload, I think it was the transformer cube that threaten transform to our electronics.
Both showed aggression, but not a clear threat to all organics.
Especially the overload thing considering organics would find ways to counter it if it was truly all evil and sadistic.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 juillet 2013 - 04:27 .

[Coyotebay]

Sure, if you allow for the Reapers to adjust their harvests then mathematically yes...sometimes.  Is it still logical?  No, of course not.  When you deliberately commit genocidal annihiliation, you are reducing the odds of advanced life continuing, as you don't know what the rate of new advanced life evolving will be.  And the Reapers are not psychics.  Only a fraction of worlds with intelligent life on them will become advanced - most will die off from nautral distasters, war, famine, pestillence.  The Reapers could harvest all the advanced races and in the next cycle discover that out of the other 10,000  worlds with intelligent life on them, intelligent life perished on 9,000 of them.  Call it a bad cycle, but that's how things go, because the galaxy is not a static system.  And since the Reapers only destroy and do not seed planets with new life as part of their plan, then they have nothing to counter this with.  So now you have a drastically reduced pool to work with, and have opened the possibility of a downward slide to where there are no worlds left with intelligent life on them.  Really, I can argue why this is wrong from the morality standpoint, but simply from a logical "does it make sense" approach, exterminating entire races of intelligent life with the assumption that they will with certainty be replaced by other intelligent life is not only completely assinine, it really qualifies as insane.

Modifié par Coyotebay, 03 juillet 2013 - 04:28 .

[remydat]

TheProtheans wrote...

Do we even know if our toasters would try to wipe us all out?
Not even Mass effect has proof they can wipe out all organic life in a galaxy for eternity.

The closest I saw of the argument was a useless AI doing something useless and then trying to self destruct because he knew he had been truly defeated.
And that thing in Overload, I think it was the transformer cube that threaten transform to our electronics.
Both showed aggression, but not a clear threat to all organics.
Especially the overload thing considering organics would find ways to counter it if it was truly all evil and sadistic.

The Reapers are the proof that they have the ability to do so.  Organics only salvation was that the Reapers only wanted to harvest and they stuck to their original programming of preserving life at all cost.  If instead they had said "f**k it organics aren't worth saving let's kill them all," there is no reason to believe that anyone could have stopped them when for hundreds of millions or billions of years they have defeated all advanced organic life in the galaxy.  That means the only organics left after each cycle were primitives so it makes little sense to think primitives would be able to evolve faster than the Reapers could find them.

So the cycles are the proof.  If some species could have remained hidden long enough so that they could evolve beyond the Reapers then the cycles would have already failed.  So the game already shows us that the only synthetic we can be certain was created by an organic race that survived past this 50k year threshold to become advanced enough to create such a synthetic threat was capable of controlling the galaxy for such a long period of time and was only defeated because it had a twisted desire to preserve life rather than to simply destroy it completely.

So the evidence that an advanced synthetic can do it is already there and was there since the earliest era of the galaxy.  The only question is will it want to and do you want to hold onto the hope that it won't.

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...

The Reapers are the proof that they have the ability to do so.  Organics only salvation was that the Reapers only wanted to harvest and they stuck to their original programming of preserving life at all cost.  If instead they had said "f**k it organics aren't worth saving let's kill them all," there is no reason to believe that anyone could have stopped them when for hundreds of millions or billions of years they have defeated all advanced organic life in the galaxy.  That means the only organics left after each cycle were primitives so it makes little sense to think primitives would be able to evolve faster than the Reapers could find them.

So the cycles are the proof.  If some species could have remained hidden long enough so that they could evolve beyond the Reapers then the cycles would have already failed.  So the game already shows us that the only synthetic we can be certain was created by an organic race that survived past this 50k year threshold to become advanced enough to create such a synthetic threat was capable of controlling the galaxy for such a long period of time and was only defeated because it had a twisted desire to preserve life rather than to simply destroy it completely.

So the evidence that an advanced synthetic can do it is already there and was there since the earliest era of the galaxy.  The only question is will it want to and do you want to hold onto the hope that it won't.

The reapers are not really proof of that considering most of them are not synthetics and instead a hybrid between synthetic and organics.
Even if they killed all other organics, organic minds would still exist in them.

There is no proof the Reapers can go from "preserving life" to killing it all.
Even if they went rogue, we know of no rogue AI that wanted to wipe out all organic life simply because it could attempt it.
Overall it seems like a giant leap to assume a rogue Catalyst would kill for no reason considering we know AI that break out of their original coding are not purely evil and sadistic.

[remydat]

Coyotebay wrote...

Sure, if you allow for the Reapers to adjust their harvests then mathematically yes...sometimes.  Is it still logical?  No, of course not.  When you deliberately commit genocidal annihiliation, you are reducing the odds of advanced life continuing, as you don't know what the rate of new advanced life evolving will be.  And the Reapers are not psychics.  Only a fraction of worlds with intelligent life on them will become advanced - most will die off from nautral distasters, war, famine, pestillence.  The Reapers could harvest all the advanced races and in the next cycle discover that out of the other 10,000  worlds with intelligent life on them, intelligent life perished on 9,000 of them.  Call it a bad cycle, but that's how things go, because the galaxy is not a static system.  And since the Reapers only destroy and do not seed planets with new life as part of their plan, then they have nothing to counter this with.  So now you have a drastically reduced pool to work with, and have opened the possibility of a downward slide to where there are no worlds left with intelligent life on them.  Really, I can argue why this is wrong from the morality standpoint, but simply from a logical "does it make sense" approach, exterminating entire races of intelligent life with the assumption that they will with certainty be replaced by other intelligent life is not only completely assinine, it really qualifies as insane.

It was to preserve life at all costs.  If that cost is that life dies out over billions of years instead of hundreds of thousands of years, it has still met its goal.  

So this is why Leviathan said the cycles were a solution and an EXPERIMENT.  The Catalyst had no reason to believe organics could survive an advanced synthetic like the Reapers whose mission was to destroy all organic life.    If such an organic species existed that species would have already defeated the Reapers because again the Reapers gave them a much longer time frame and used less destructive means than this hypothetical synthetic would if it possessed the Reapers powers.

If you want to prove you its premise is incorrect then you have to be able to beat the Reapers because if the Reapers could find and destroy all organic life and if the galaxy could not create a species capable of defeating them before they came back then organics can't survive against a synthetic like the Reapers who don't hibernate for 50k years but continue to destroy.

[remydat]

TheProtheans wrote...

The reapers are not really proof of that considering most of them are not synthetics and instead a hybrid between synthetic and organics.
Even if they killed all other organics, organic minds would still exist in them.

There is no proof the Reapers can go from "preserving life" to killing it all.
Even if they went rogue, we know of no rogue AI that wanted to wipe out all organic life simply because it could attempt it.
Overall it seems like a giant leap to assume a rogue Catalyst would kill for no reason considering we know AI that break out of their original coding are not purely evil and sadistic.

First you are splitting hairs. The Zha-til were considered synthetics by Javik and they were hybrids with the Zha.  If the synthetic mind is the one ultimately in control, the people in the MEU consider them synthetic.  Hell even Legion considers the Old MACHINES synthetic.

Second, the Catalyst was able to defeat the Leviathan without the Reapers.  The Leviathan was clearly the most advanced species of its era so whatever synthetics it used to kill the Leviathan could easily have been used on the lesser species.  It simply choose to create the Reapers because its directive was to preserve life and it considers a Reaper as preserving the life of the species it was created from.

There really is no way around it.  If an organic race was capable of surviving this alleged synthetic threat the Intelligence should have been defeated long ago.  Again that is why the cycles are a solution and an EXPERIMENT.  You want to prove the Intelligence wrong then fine, it is an advanced synthetic race.  It is merely harvesting you not trying to destroy you.  It is doing so over a much longer timeframe than a synthetic would need to simply destroy organics so BEAT IT.  Until you can, you are just proving organics are not strong enough to deal with a synthetic threat who takes the kid gloves off.

Modifié par remydat, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:43 .

[KaiserShep]

It sure would've been nice to get some details as to how the "intelligence" actually facilitated this attack on the Leviathan.

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...


First you are splitting hairs. The Zha-til were considered synthetics by Javik and they were hybrids with the Zha.  
If the synthetic mind is the one ultimately in control, the people in the MEU consider them synthetic.  Hell even Legion considers the Old MACHINES synthetic.

There is only organics minds inside an organic made Reaper, not comparable at all to the Zha-til who were independent of their host's mind, corrupted only by the Reapers into doing evil deeds.

Not quite, in ME2 Legion is noted as saying they touched Soveriegn's mind and noted he was not like them.
Whatever they're, they do not have synthetic minds.

Second, the Catalyst was able to defeat the Leviathan without the Reapers.  The Leviathan was clearly the most advanced species of its era so whatever synthetics it used to kill the Leviathan could easily have been used on the lesser species.  It simply choose to create the Reapers because its directive was to preserve life and it considers a Reaper as preserving the life of the species it was created from.

I'm pretty sure the catalyst had synthetic Reapers before he started harvesting, so technically he had Reapers but not as we know them.

There really is no way around it.  If an organic race was capable of surviving this alleged synthetic threat the Intelligence should have been defeated long ago.  Again that is why the cycles are a solution and an EXPERIMENT.  You want to prove the Intelligence wrong then fine, it is an advanced synthetic race.  It is merely harvesting you not trying to destroy you.  It is doing so over a much longer timeframe than a synthetic would need to simply destroy organics so BEAT IT.  Until you can, you are just proving organics are not strong enough to deal with a synthetic threat who takes the kid gloves off.

That is a broad statement, while the Leviathans were advanced they had so many weaknesses that they're a joke.
If humanity was hiding for a billion years, we'd probably come out with  just1 invicible war ship that could destory every single Reaper, the Reapers who never achieve a higher level of technology than they already have.
The leviathans were keeping all the other races down in their time so much so that they never had a chance against any of them.
The fight against the catalyst was not a real fight has they had no worthy opponents.
Compare it to the Geth, if they tried to control the galaxy and begin a cycle they would not suceed, because we don't have a mad useless race of squid corrupting us.
Beating an already existing race is usually harder than beating a newly developing race.

As such if the Reapers didn't exist and some other synthetic race tried it such as the one the Protheans were beating, they were not suceed.
The difference is the Reapers are a race that do not belong in any of those time periods.
Organics are strong enough to deal with synthetics as they have done on countless times in the past.
The Reapers however have the advantage of existing longer and in great numbers, if the leviathans were not keeping other races down then this cycle would have been stopped in it's footstep, ending with the catalyst being burned on a stake.

So all we truly know is that the only thing that can truly harm the galaxy is a mad race of organics such as Leviathans, who can create their own destruction through ignorance and hamper the efforts to control this destruction.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 juillet 2013 - 06:28 .

[remydat]

The Geth are irrelevant.  The Intelligence was created by a race much older than the Quarians were.  Again that is the whole point of the harvest.  No organic race or its creations are allowed to live past 50k years so the synthetics created are not a threat to all organic existence.  The Geth are a joke compared to a synthetic created by say a race allowed to live 200k years instead of 50k.  The Quarians didn't even know what they were creating, lol.

The only synthetic we know to have been created by an advanced organic race that lived long past 50k years of the harvest is the Intelligence.  And the Intelligence orchestrated the complete destruction of all advanced organic life in the galaxy for hundreds of millions if not billions of years and no organic race could stop it.  And to top it off, technically the Intelligence appears to be just one damn synthetic.  One damn synthetic was the mastermind behind this event.  The Geth number in the millions if not more.

So yes a mad race of organics can create their own destruction.  Hence why the Intelligence kills all advanced organic life before they can evolve to the stage where they can create their own destruction.  All cycles since the Leviathan age were beating up on baby synthetics.  Now that the harvest has been defeated let's let organics live for 100k more years and see what the synthetics they create look like.  My guess is 100k years of organic develop never before seen since the Leviathan age leads to a far more advanced synthetic race than the Geth.

Modifié par remydat, 03 juillet 2013 - 07:06 .

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...

The Geth are irrelevant.  The Intelligence was created by a race much older than the Quarians were.  Again that is the whole point of the harvest.  No organic race or its creations are allowed to live past 50k years so the synthetics created are not a threat to all organic existence. 

Well no, it is no advanced organic race can exist without colliding with a cycle.
Bioware are pretty awful writers in this regard as a race could easily take advantage of ~48000 year time period and in which there is no cycle.
Because they didn't this tells me Bioware made all past organics look weak including the Leviathans who are extremely weak.

The only synthetic we know to have been created by an advanced organic race that lived long past 50k years of the harvest is the Intelligence.  And the Intelligence orchestrated the complete destruction of all advanced organic life in the galaxy for hundreds of millions if not billions of years and no organic race could stop it.  And to top it off, technically the Intelligence appears to be just one damn synthetic.  One damn synthetic was the mastermind behind this event.  The Geth number in the millions if not more.

It is not a mastermind, masterminds are smarter or at least should be smarter.

So yes a mad race of organics can create their own destruction.  Hence why the Intelligence kills all advanced organic life before they can evolve to the stage where they can create their own destruction.  All cycles since the Leviathan age were beating up on baby synthetics.  Now that the harvest has been defeated let's let organics live for 100k more years and see what the synthetics they create look like.  My guess is 100k years of organic develop never before seen since the Leviathan age leads to a far more advanced synthetic race than the Geth.

If past synthetics are to go by the synthetics will be swiftly defeated provided all the races are not hampered by a stupid race of squids.
You and I are talking about two different build ups to destruction, the leviathan situation is never going to be repeated again as the Leviathans are a unique and a flawed race.
The chances of the galaxy having another race like them is unlikely, though small pockets of them still exist.
They lived for 1 billion years and advanced no further, they're a useless dying race.
100k of organic development would put organics in a no better position than they're already in, a winning position.

The destruction of a mad race of organics is delivered by the thing that wants to prevent their destruction.
I will not point out the flaw in that.
Realistically no one is going to make an AI for the purpose the catalyst was created ever again, and probably not for the last billion years if the Leviathans were there.
So organics are relatively safe from the threat of synthetics given that too.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 juillet 2013 - 09:17 .

[remydat]

TheProtheans,

If you are going to blame Bioware for the fact organics got their a** kicked then anyone can blame Bioware for synthetics getting their a** kicked.  That is a pointless meta argument.  Bioware wrote both scenarios.

Like I said, organics have proven they can beat up on baby synthetics.  Great.  They are now currently 1 - 20,000 against the Intelligence.  And sadly they got that win because the Intelligence pretty much gave up and invited Shep up for a little chit chat.  

Let's see them get a few more wins against a really advanced synthetic before we claim they are contenders.

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...

TheProtheans,

If you are going to blame Bioware for the fact organics got their a** kicked then anyone can blame Bioware for synthetics getting their a** kicked.  That is a pointless meta argument.  Bioware wrote both scenarios.

I'm not blaming Bioware, I'm blaming the Leviathans for the advanced races of  that time period being destroyed by synthetics

Like I said, organics have proven they can beat up on baby synthetics.  Great.  They are now currently 1 - 20,000 against the Intelligence.
And sadly they got that win because the Intelligence pretty much gave up and invited Shep up for a little chit chat.  

Which had little to do with what I am talking about.
Minus the Leviathans hampering the organics effort against the first synthetics, organics have always remained strong in every time period we know afterwards.

Let's see them get a few more wins against a really advanced synthetic before we claim they are contenders.

I doubt they would last against advanced organics of the same period.
The only period we know that they did is one with the Leviathans involved.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 04 juillet 2013 - 08:53 .

[remydat]

Organics have remained strong in every time period we know afterwards because they are killed before they can live long enough to create super synthetics. All that proves is that the harvest was effective, lol.

Yes the only period we know is the one with Leviathans involved. And the Leviathans lost. There is no example of a super advanced organic winning against a super advanced synthetic. None.

[AlanC9]

In effect, the Catalyst's own actions prevent gathering the evidence that would prove his conclusions correct. Which is ironic since it leaves him unable to mount a convincing argument against Destroy.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:41 .

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...

Organics have remained strong in every time period we know afterwards because they are killed before they can live long enough to create super synthetics. All that proves is that the harvest was effective, lol.

Yes the only period we know is the one with Leviathans involved. And the Leviathans lost. There is no example of a super advanced organic winning against a super advanced synthetic. None.

There is no evidence of a super advanced synthetic winning against a super advanced organic as the Reapers are not super advanced.
I've seen nothing in Mass effect that speaks super advanced to me, the Leviathans surely were not super advanced and most of the Reaper technology is based off them and does not expand much further.
And, again the Leviathans are involved here.

[KaiserShep]

AlanC9 wrote...


In effect, the Catalyst's own actions prevent gathering the evidence that would prove his conclusions correct. Which is ironic since it leaves him unable to mount a convincing argument against Destroy.

Heck, the war could end with a ceasefire and ultimately peace, like war with any other kind of race in the galaxy. If something stepped in and destroyed both the Turians and Humans at the height of their conflict, arguing that they would both have severely weakened the galactic government as a whole, there's no way to prove that it was wrong outright, but it has no way to prove that it was correct either. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 juillet 2013 - 09:28 .