642 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Yeah, and I know what racist implications written into a narrative are, but I've not quite figured out how a reader can "imply racism" into a book.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Oh look Plaintiff. Hi how are you? Still being a dumb arse I see, taking an absurd post made to highlight stupidity of someone elses's post as an serious point, but then again past experience has taught me to expect nothing less from you. 

[syllogi]

In DA2, at least when making female characters, unless you were really trying to make an Ugly!Hawke, every character ended up looking very much alike.  Certain options in the character creator, like the mouth or cheeks, were extremely restricted, and making unique looking faces was hard, even when cycling through the supposedly "ethnic" presets.

People have a natural tendency towards finding symmetrical facial features attractive, which is fine, but when the default for facial symmetry does not allow for eyes with epicanthal folds, high cheekbones, or broad noses, for instance, then the default needs to be reexamined.

[Plaintiff]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Racism doesn't count if it comes from a racist time!"

TIME RACISTS II: THIS TIME IT'S RACE RELATIONAL

no wait

TIME RACISTS II: A KINKY IN TIME

or

TIME RACISTS II: A CONFEDERATE ****** IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT

But really dogg, when did times stop being racist.

Point taken.

What I was trying to say is "it's a product of it's time" is not an excuse. I adore the works of Robert E. Howard, and I enjoy Lovecraft, but they are pretty damn racist, obviously if not blatantly so. The fact that the authors came from a time period where racism was more acceptable is not an excuse.

Hell, C.S Lewis was a product of the same time as Tolkien (in fact, they were close friends in college), but as problematic as the Chronicles of Narnia are in several respects, they at least managed to demonstrate that not every member of the dark-skinned race was wholly evil.

[FKA_Servo]

Gileadan wrote...

Just out of interest... was it racism to include a character like Sir Roderick Ponce von Fontlebottom in Jade Empire?

You're not the first person to raise this and think it's clever.

Context - you're doing it wrong.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Plaintiff wrote...

What I was trying to say is "it's a product of it's time" is not an excuse.

Nah, I was just messing with you, dude. I knew what you were saying.

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Yeah, and I know what racist implications written into a narrative are, but I've not quite figured out how a reader can "imply racism" into a book.

I also see that my little gif on implications being a intellectually barren get out clause when you can't make a coherrent point has been lost on you. 

If you can't figure out that I question your intelligence. You just said critics have been claiming that the Lord of the Ring is an allegorical tale. Yet you haven't grasped that your own perception is the determining factor in what you see as the implied content? Wow. 

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Oh look Plaintiff. Hi how are you? Still being a dumb arse I see, taking an absurd post made to highlight stupidity of someone elses's post as an serious point, but then again past experience has taught me to expect nothing less from you.

The only stupidity you managed to highlight was your own. The only reason your post was absurd was because it was objectively and demonstrably dishonest about the contents of a piece of classic literature.

[Ollys]

Ethnic diversity is really good thing,cuz it gives more flexability to character creation.
But good only till it goes according to lore, where orlesians look like orlesians and etc and it dont reach hollywood movies level with afro-american knights in medieval england.
 

[Plaintiff]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What I was trying to say is "it's a product of it's time" is not an excuse.

Nah, I was just messing with you, dude. I knew what you were saying.

I know, but I thought I should clarify for the benefit of others.

[Silfren]

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Yeah, and I know what racist implications written into a narrative are, but I've not quite figured out how a reader can "imply racism" into a book.

I also see that my little gif on implications being a intellectually barren get out clause when you can't make a coherrent point has been lost on you. 

If you can't figure out that I question your intelligence. You just said critics have been claiming that the Lord of the Ring is an allegorical tale. Yet you haven't grasped that your own perception is the determining factor in what you see as the implied content? Wow. 

What I actually said is that critics see allegory in Lord of the Rings.  But that's neither here nor there.  When you write a story where the dark-skinned people are evil and the white people are heroes, there are racist implications. That's not a reader's imaginary perception, it is a critical observation of the writer's biases.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ollys wrote...

afro-american knights in medieval england.

Black.

The word you are looking for is black. The States did not exist during the mediaeval era.

Funny that, though, because there were in fact black knights in England.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:33 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Silfren wrote...
Do you? Do you even know what privilege is?

Let's talk about "whitewashing" first:

Apart from the original meaning, making people that were either historically non-white appear white or people that were non-white in some form of source material appear white in an adaption is sometimes referred to as whitewashing. DA is neither historical nor an adaption.

As for privilege, let's just look at an example:
I've often heard that most protagonists being white is a form of white-privilege. If the ratio of protagonists were an exact representation of the market, this would still be the case. Is the majority of the market being white somehow racist?

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:32 .

[FKA_Servo]

Ollys wrote...
Ethnic diversity is really good thing,cuz it gives more flexability to character creation.
But good only till it goes according to lore, where orlesians look like orlesians and etc and it dont reach hollywood movies level with afro-american knights in medieval england.
 

Medieval England has nothing to do with anything we're discussing. And I don't think I need to remind you that Thedas isn't actually a real place from history.

What's ridiculous is that the response to someone saying "I'd like to make a character who looks like me" is page upon page of people (speaking generally, not referring to you) crying crocodile tears about the integrity of the fictional setting that we by no means know everything about yet.

Edited to soften my tone.

Modifié par TommyServo, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:40 .

[Ollys]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Ollys wrote...

afro-american knights in medieval england.

Black.

The word you are looking for is black. The States did not exist during the mediaeval er.

Funny that, though, because there were in fact black knights in England.

 
They must be some sort of captured and converted to christianity saracins or abissinians and they sure dont move and act like normal people of these society. Probably more like jesters at rich courts.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Ollys wrote...
They must be some sort of captured and converted to christianity saracins or abissinians and they sure dont move and act like normal people of these society. Probably more like jesters at rich courts.

And what exactly is the reason that this 'must' be the case?

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:38 .

[Silfren]

[quote]Lennard Testarossa wrote...

[Quote]Silfren wrote...
Do you? Do you even know what privilege is?[/quote]

Let's talk about "whitewashing" first:

Apart from the original meaning, making people that were either historically non-white appear white or people that were non-white in some form of source material appear white in an adaption is sometimes referred to as whitewashing. DA is neither historical nor an adaption.[/quote]

I am aware that whitewashing refers to bleaching PoC.  I used the term because I've seen it used by others in criticizing Bioware's handling of ethnic diversity, and frankly I don't think it's entirely out of place.  We're told that Thedas does indeed have PoC, but we rarely see any, least of all in places where you'd expect diversity to be common.  And then of course, Duncan and Isabela.  Duncan's SUPPOSED to be a PoC, but it's vague enough that we had an argument about it right here in this thread.  Isabela has unquestionably been whitewashed. 

For those who keep insisting that Thedas is directly analagous to Europe, medieval or otherwise, as the totally logical basis for the lack of people of color there is definitely some whitewashing going on.  Europe does indeed contain PoC, and it did during the medieval period as well.

As for privilege, let's just look at an example:
I've often heard that most protagonists being white is a form of white-privilege. If the ratio of protagonists were an exact representation of the market, this would still be the case. Is the majority of the market being white somehow racist?[/quote]

Um, what? I don't know what it is you think privilege means, but this is just incoherent.  I'll reiterate: (white) privilege comes from racism. 

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:42 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ollys wrote...


Probably more like jesters at rich courts.

...No.

[Plaintiff]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Ollys wrote...

afro-american knights in medieval england.

Black.

The word you are looking for is black. The States did not exist during the mediaeval era.

Funny that, though, because there were in fact black knights in England.

Alexandre Dumas was black! I learned that from Django Unchained.

Also, Alexandre Dumas' father, Thomas-Alexandre Dumas was the first person of colour in the French military to acheive the rank of general, and still holds the distinction for being the highest-ranking person of colour in any continental European army.

Tarantino films are totes educational.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:42 .

[Sylvianus]

Ollys wrote...

Ethnic diversity is really good thing,cuz it gives more flexability to character creation.
But good only till it goes according to lore, where orlesians look like orlesians and etc and it dont reach hollywood movies level with afro-american knights in medieval england.
 

It was only weird because you know that there weren't afro- american knights in medieval England. But Thedas isn't the medieval england. You have no clue how it was centuries before. You have no clue how Nations were built and how their society has evolved. So if you see a dark-skinned knight in Orlais at the side of a white knight, I don't think you will see it as a bad movie.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:48 .

[Ollys]

TommyServo wrote...

Ollys wrote...
Ethnic diversity is really good thing,cuz it gives more flexability to character creation.
But good only till it goes according to lore, where orlesians look like orlesians and etc and it dont reach hollywood movies level with afro-american knights in medieval england.
 

Medieval England has nothing to do with it. And I don't think I need to remind you that Thedas isn't actually a real place from history.

What's ridiculous is that the response to someone saying "I'd like to make a character who looks like me" means page upon page of morons (speaking generally, not referring to you) crying crocodile tears about the integrity of the fictional setting that we by no means know everything about yet.

 
what we know from first two games and from books - there is no any asians and any semi-asian inspired culture in Thedas. So asian protagonist will be look out of character. Blacks are ok, we have dark skinned mans form corkari wild in DAO, so they exist in Thedas. All must go according to lore, or game just lose sence and visibility of inner logic.

[FKA_Servo]

Ollys wrote...
what we know from first two games and from books - there is no any asians and any semi-asian inspired culture in Thedas. So asian protagonist will be look out of character. Blacks are ok, we have dark skinned mans form corkari wild in DAO, so they exist in Thedas. All must go according to lore, or game just lose sence and visibility of inner logic.

Ok, I take it back. I am referring to you.

[Sylvianus]

TommyServo wrote...
What's ridiculous is that the response to someone saying "I'd like to make a character who looks like me" is page upon page of people (speaking generally, not referring to you) crying crocodile tears about the integrity of the fictional setting that we by no means know everything about yet.

Edited to soften my tone.

Haha true.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:46 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Silfren wrote...
Isabela has unquestionably been whitewashed.

Isabela can't possibly be whitewashed as Bioware is the authority on what she looks like.

Silfren wrote...
Um, what? I don't know what it is you think privilege means, but this is just incoherent. I'll reiterate: (white) privilege comes from racism.

It is not the slightest bit incoherent. What I've quoted there as privilege is what I've seen pointed out as privilege countless times. If it's too difficult for you to understand, here's a very simple question:

Do you think that the majority of protagonists in (western) video games being white is white privilege?

[Plaintiff]

The lore is just the lore. Lore in other works of fiction gets retconned ALL THE TIME, and the authors just say "Yeah, we changed it because we wanted to", and miraculously, everyone manages to not crap their pants over it.