642 réponses à ce sujet

[Thiefy]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Alexandre Dumas was black! I learned that from Django Unchained.

Wasn't he like, one quarter black?

Does the ratio of black to white make any difference? Colour is colour.

The only photos I've found are black and white, obviously, so it's hard to describe his exact skin tone.

All the portraits of his father portray the man as being pretty dark-skinned, I imagine Dumas would be close to that.

I have a feeling that most people looking at this would peg him as black.

 
That's because they aren't familiar with a wide variety of features. A homogeneous area has a hard time differentiating between features they aren't used to. It's why a lot of people say "asians all look alike" - because they aren't used to the details, yet they can pick out all sort of minute details about blond hair or blue eyes. Fun fact, a lot of Japanese think all blonds look the same.  In my case I actually think the man is mixed. But I have a hlaf-brother who is mixed white, puerto rican and black, so it's easy for my to identify these things.

[syllogi]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Isabela has unquestionably been whitewashed.

Isabela can't possibly be whitewashed as Bioware is the authority on what she looks like.

Sheryl Chee has said in the past that (in addition to creating and writing Isabela in both games) she created Isabela's headmorph in the DA:O toolset, and she had the next to darkest skintone available.  So, yes, when a marketing image of the character has skin that is several shades lighter than the skintone she has in both games, that can be considered whitewashing, even when it's done by the company that owns the character.

My sister in law is a graphic designer for a company that makes hats with licensed images on them.  When she's making a Barbie hat, she's given a very strict style guide that includes colors, lettering, and images that can be used to make that hat.  If she deviates from that guide, her hat isn't going to be approved.  While Bioware obviously doesn't have a clearly defined brand like Barbie, they do have characters with specific features, and when they market those characters, they want people to recognize those characters immediately.  If marketing came up with a trailer where Varric had jet black hair, that would most likely be flagged and corrected immediately.  The fact that there are several instances of approved images of Isabela that give her a *much* lighter skintone is problematic, and falls under what we commonly refer to as whitewashing.

[Sylvianus]

You don't need asian culture inspired from the real world or history, to include asian people or asian features.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:07 .

[Plaintiff]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yet people of color are expected to identify with white people ALL THE TIME.

Indeed. You still haven't pointed out to me how that comes from racism, though.

How is it not self-evident?

[FKA_Servo]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yet people of color are expected to identify with white people ALL THE TIME.

Indeed. You still haven't pointed out to me how that comes from racism, though.

It's not always active, directed racism. It's an intrinsic disregard for the experience of anyone else that's baked into the supremacy of a dominant culture.

[Ollys]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Ollys wrote...

They must be some sort of captured and converted to christianity saracins or abissinians and they sure dont move and act like normal people of these society. Probably more like jesters at rich courts.

I was going to write an unnecessarily long post about this, but f*ck it, not unless you're going to dash me some change.

Ali, Ahmed, and Ibrahim Ali.  The Black Celts: An Ancient African Civilization in Ireland and Britain. Cardiff: Punite Publications, 1992.
Dabydeen, David, ed.  The Black Presence in English Literature. Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1985.
Edwards, Paul, and James Walvin.  "Africans in Britain, 1500-1800." The African Diaspora: Interpretive Essays. Edited by Martin L. Kilson and Robert I. Rotberg. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1976: 173-204.
Higgins, Godfrey.  Celtic Druids: Or,  An Attempt to Show, that the Druids were the Priests of Oriental Colonies who Emigrated from India, and were the Introducers of the First or Cadmean System of Letters, and the Builders of Stonehenge, or Carnac, and of Other Cyclopean Works, in Asia and Europe. 1829; rpt. Los Angeles: Philosophical Research Society, 1977.
Johnson, Rosalind.  "African Presence in Shakespearean Drama: Parallels Between Othello and the Historical Leo Africanus." African Presence in Early Europe. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1985: 276-87.
Jones, E.D.  Othello’s Countrymen: The African in English Renaissance Drama. London: Oxford University Press, 1965.
 Luke, Don.  "African Presence in the Early History of the British Isles and Scandinavia." African Presence in Early Europe. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1985: 223-44.
The Mabinogion.  Translated with an Introduction by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones. London: Dent, 1957.
MacKenzie, Donald A.  Ancient Man in Britain. Foreword by Grafton Elliot Smith. London: Blackie, 1922.
MacManus, Seaumas.  The Story of the Irish Race: A Popular History of Ireland. New York: Devin-Adair, 1921.
MacRitchie, David.  Ancient and Modern Britons: A Retrospect, 2 Vols. 1884; rpt. Introduction by William Preston. Los Angeles: Preston, 1985, 1986.
Massey, Gerald. A Book of the Beginnings: Containing an Attempt to Recover and Reconstitute the Lost Origines of the Myths and Mysteries, Types and Symbols, Religion and Language, with Egypt for the Mouthpiece and Africa as the Birthplace. Volume 1, Egyptian Origines in the British Isles. 1881; rpt. Secaucus: University Books, 1974.
Morien.  Translated from the Medieval Dutch by Jessie L. Weston. London: Nutt, 1901.
Rashidi, Runoko.  "Ancient and Modern Britons: A Review Essay." African Presence in Early Europe. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1985: 251-60.
Rogers, Joel Augustus.  Nature Knows No Color-Line: Research Into the ****** Ancestry in the White Race. 3rd ed. New York: Rogers, 1952.
Rogers, Joel Augustus.  Sex and Race, Volume 1. 9th ed. New York: Rogers, 1967.
Scobie, Edward.  Black Britannia: A History of Blacks in Britain. Chicago: Johnson, 1972.
Scobie, Edward.  "African Women in Early Europe." African Presence in Early Europe. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. New Brunswick: Journal of African Civilizations, 1985: 202-22.
Scobie, Edward.  "The Black in Western Europe." African Presence in Early Europe. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1985: 190-202.
Scobie, Edward. Global African Presence. Introduction by Ivan Van Sertima. Brooklyn: A&B, 1994.
Skene, William F.  Celtic Scotland, 3 Volumes. 1876; rpt. Freeport, 1971

Black Celts.

Creation of race and the den*ggafication of England.

Era of Severus.

I could go on. And that's just England, not Europe with its Mongol invasions, centuries-long dominion of black and Arab Muslims, West and North African academic exchange, or the trans-Asian and general African trade.

At no point in history were people sitting on their hands with rocks in their ears and sand in their eyes.

 
Dont you see difference between isolated ghetto-like community and part of militant ruling aristocraty?
Even anglo-saxons not allowed to own land is Sussex after norman invasion.
And yes, i live in county that was captured by mongols for long years. But still, they is almost no blenda-up - one ruling culture and etnic at the time.   

[Silfren]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Alexandre Dumas was black! I learned that from Django Unchained.

Wasn't he like, one quarter black?

Does the ratio of black to white make any difference? Colour is colour.

The only photos I've found are black and white, obviously, so it's hard to describe his exact skin tone.

All the portraits of his father portray the man as being pretty dark-skinned, I imagine Dumas would be close to that.

I have a feeling that most people looking at this would peg him as black.

 
That's because they aren't familiar with a wide variety of features. A homogeneous area has a hard time differentiating between features they aren't used to. It's why a lot of people say "asians all look alike" - because they aren't used to the details, yet they can pick out all sort of minute details about blond hair or blue eyes. Fun fact, a lot of Japanese think all blonds look the same.  In my case I actually think the man is mixed. But I have a hlaf-brother who is mixed white, puerto rican and black, so it's easy for my to identify these things.

I don't disagree with you, and I think we are starting to see terms like "biracial" used more often, but the reality is that most people who are at least one-quarter black or half-black are typically considered de facto black, especially if their African features are more obvious than the other.  Heck, in my experience, most of the biracial persons I know identify as black themselves.  I've only ever actually personally known one person who specifically referred to themselves as biracial who had black ancestry. 

I think the "one drop" rule is largely to blame for this.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:09 .

[Thiefy]

Sylvianus wrote...

You don't need asian culture inspired from the real world or history, to include asian people or asian features.

this. considering asian is such a broad term anyway. and that "black culture" or "white culture" isn't included per say either. although the whole idea in of itself is kind of loaded

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Can't we just sit back and enjoy a game, not worry constantly about diversity on race, sexual orientation, etc...

It's a fantasy video game, nothing more.

Culture and media inform each other in a constant feedack loop.

Media products say something about the culture they were made in, and about the individuals that made them.

Audiences that view the product are impacted by it in both positive and negative ways.

To willfully ignore that would be foolish.

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Can't we just sit back and enjoy a game, not worry constantly about diversity on race, sexual orientation, etc...

It's a fantasy video game, nothing more.

Culture and media inform each other in a constant feedack loop.

Media products say something about the culture they were made in, and about the individuals that made them.

Audiences that view the product are impacted by it in both positive and negative ways.

To willfully ignore that would be foolish.

.  So?  What is your point?  We should have racial diversity in games to prove we arent racists?  

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Oh look Plaintiff. Hi how are you? Still being a dumb arse I see, taking an absurd post made to highlight stupidity of someone elses's post as an serious point, but then again past experience has taught me to expect nothing less from you.

The only stupidity you managed to highlight was your own. The only reason your post was absurd was because it was objectively and demonstrably dishonest about the contents of a piece of classic literature.

Ironic that it's the exact same thing that you disregarded with Lord of The Rings example. Evasions and hypocrisy in it's rawest form is always your best quality when trying to make a point. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:14 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Silfren wrote...
People of color are expected to identify with white people, whereas a common reason given why there are no black people is because us poor whites couldn't relate...you can't see how this just screams racism????

Plaintiff wrote...
How is it not self-evident?

"It's obvious!" is a nice way of saying "I've no idea how to substantiate my claims..."

Let me quote wikipedia on the definition of racism:

wikipedia wrote...
Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior, or superior.

People of color are 'expected' to identify with white people because the majority of the market for which the video games they want to play, the films they want to watch, etc. are produced and the majority of the countries in which these things are produced is white. Please tell me how this relates to the notion that other races are inferior.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Can't we just sit back and enjoy a game, not worry constantly about diversity on race, sexual orientation, etc...

It's a fantasy video game, nothing more.

Culture and media inform each other in a constant feedack loop.

Media products say something about the culture they were made in, and about the individuals that made them.

Audiences that view the product are impacted by it in both positive and negative ways.

To willfully ignore that would be foolish.

.  So?  What is your point?  We should have racial diversity in games to prove we arent racists?  

Uh, no.  We should have racial diversity BECAUSE THE WORLD IS RACIALLY DIVERSE.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ollys wrote...

Dont you see difference between isolated ghetto-like community and part of militant ruling aristocraty?
Even anglo-saxons not allowed to own land is Sussex after norman invasion.
And yes, i live in county that was captured by mongols for long years. But still, they is almost no blenda-up - one ruling culture and etnic at the time.   

I must have fallen, hit my damn head and started typing in tongues, because there is no way you missed near everything I wrote, that badly.

You're doing the running man when I'm dutty wining, dude.

[Hazegurl]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Isabela can't possibly be whitewashed as Bioware is the authority on what she looks like.

Oh yeah, it's totally natural to look dark skinned in the game and lore but get the Michael Jackson bleach treatment in promotional artwork. Maybe it was the lighting.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Oh look Plaintiff. Hi how are you? Still being a dumb arse I see, taking an absurd post made to highlight stupidity of someone elses's post as an serious point, but then again past experience has taught me to expect nothing less from you.

The only stupidity you managed to highlight was your own. The only reason your post was absurd was because it was objectively and demonstrably dishonest about the contents of a piece of classic literature.

Ironic that it's the exact same thing that you disregarded with Lord of The Rings example. Evasions and hypocrisy in it's rawest form is always your best quality when trying to make a point. 

Not only have you never read To Kill A Mockingbird, you've apparently not read this thread.

I have said nothing whatsoever about Lord of the Rings.

[Enigmatick]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Dont you see difference between isolated ghetto-like community and part of militant ruling aristocraty?
Even anglo-saxons not allowed to own land is Sussex after norman invasion.
And yes, i live in county that was captured by mongols for long years. But still, they is almost no blenda-up - one ruling culture and etnic at the time.   

I must have fallen, hit my damn head and started typing in tongues, because there is no way you missed near everything I wrote, that badly.

You're doing the running man when I'm dutty wining, dude.

I know people prounounce like that do they spell it like that too?

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...
So?  What is your point?  We should have racial diversity in games to prove we arent racists?

We should acknowledge that there are audiences besides the "straight white male" that might be worth appealing to.

[Tarek]

where is maa sexh pic : /

oh and go vote for witcher 3 on gamespot

[Tarek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So?  What is your point?  We should have racial diversity in games to prove we arent racists?

We should acknowledge that there are audiences besides the "straight white male" that might be worth appealing to.

Steve has shown me that once u go black u don't go back XD

[Silfren]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
People of color are expected to identify with white people, whereas a common reason given why there are no black people is because us poor whites couldn't relate...you can't see how this just screams racism????

Plaintiff wrote...
How is it not self-evident?

"It's obvious!" is a nice way of saying "I've no idea how to substantiate my claims..."

Let me quote wikipedia on the definition of racism:

wikipedia wrote...
Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior, or superior.

People of color are 'expected' to identify with white people because the majority of the market for which the video games they want to play, the films they want to watch, etc. are produced and the majority of the countries in which these things are produced is white. Please tell me how this relates to the notion that other races are inferior.

You dont know the first goddamned thing about racism or privilege, sorry.  And no, I'm not going to explain it to you because you clearly aren't interested in intellectual honesty--you'd rather go for deliberate obtuseness instead. 

Call it laziness or whatever you want, you're wrong, and no amount of snide comebacks are going to make you less so.

[Silfren]

JimmyRustles wrote...

..... To answer your question OP. One of the prime reason for this not happening is also because of the limitations of the eclipse enigine. Graphical engines usually have a problem with rendering darker shaders. This was one of the problems that eclipse faced. Frostbite 3 is a beast of an engine and I do wonder how well it is going to attempt to render these darker skin tones.

Yet modders were able to create dark skin tones just fine.  

[Enigmatick]

JimmyRustles wrote...

..... To answer your question OP. One of the prime reason for this not happening is also because of the limitations of the eclipse enigine. Graphical engines usually have a problem with rendering darker shaders. This was one of the problems that eclipse faced. Frostbite 3 is a beast of an engine and I do wonder how well it is going to attempt to render these darker skin tones.

You're on topic. Get out.

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Oh look Plaintiff. Hi how are you? Still being a dumb arse I see, taking an absurd post made to highlight stupidity of someone elses's post as an serious point, but then again past experience has taught me to expect nothing less from you.

The only stupidity you managed to highlight was your own. The only reason your post was absurd was because it was objectively and demonstrably dishonest about the contents of a piece of classic literature.

Ironic that it's the exact same thing that you disregarded with Lord of The Rings example. Evasions and hypocrisy in it's rawest form is always your best quality when trying to make a point. 

Not only have you never read To Kill A Mockingbird, you've apparently not read this thread.

I have said nothing whatsoever about Lord of the Rings.

As per usual you make an off hand comment and then scurry away when I point out that it was utterly inane. Oh I have read to Kill a Mocking Bird, but apparantly the idea of the reader's perceptions placing a particular bias on the literature and then drawing from that there is implied content hasn't quiet sunk in for you yet.