642 réponses à ce sujet

[keightdee]

Enigmatick wrote...

JimmyRustles wrote...

..... To answer your question OP. One of the prime reason for this not happening is also because of the limitations of the eclipse enigine. Graphical engines usually have a problem with rendering darker shaders. This was one of the problems that eclipse faced. Frostbite 3 is a beast of an engine and I do wonder how well it is going to attempt to render these darker skin tones.

You're on topic. Get out.

I'm gonna go with "Probably pretty well."

http://images.thisis...ield4-close.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.co...nshots/x7tl.png
http://dl.dropbox.co...nshots/vsow.png

Modifié par keightdee, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:33 .

[Thiefy]

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren,
The world as a whole is and some large cities are. But in large areas of the world racial diversity is fairly low. And in the past it was always that way until the invention of mass tranaportation.

And guess in which category medieval Europe fell into. They were hardly a tolerant or accepting people.

 
Mass transit? Like ships? Kind of explains how Isabela and probably Duncan got around. Of course, nothing stops people from just doing it the old fashion way and walking. 

.  Mass transit like railways, highways, affordable automobiles  planes, that sort of thing.  And once agaon Im not denying the odd one who would travel, Im denying that they were a sizable or permanent part of the population.

 
Yeah but as I've sad many times, no one here is asking for a massive face lift and everyone is magically black or asian. what they are asking for is that 1)a pc can be customized to reflect who the player wants ethinically 2)SOME npcs are shown to also have ethinic diversity. that being said, why is there such objection to seeing a merchant or warrior or sailor or any other type of "traveler" or people who are related to those travelers be something other than white?

[Enigmatick]

JimmyRustles wrote...

Gileadan wrote...

JimmyRustles wrote...

..... To answer your question OP. One of the prime reason for this not happening is also because of the limitations of the eclipse enigine. Graphical engines usually have a problem with rendering darker shaders. This was one of the problems that eclipse faced. Frostbite 3 is a beast of an engine and I do wonder how well it is going to attempt to render these darker skin tones.

Well, I'm no expert, but Frostbite 2 didn't have any trouble rendering black skin tones, as any BF3 campaign trailer will show, and I don't think they made it worse for Frostbite 3.

Dragon age 2 did not use frostbite 2. It used an upgraded version of the eclipse engine known as the Lyrcium. Still had a few components from eclipse and it was not an overhaul.

That's kind of unrelated to what he's saying, Jim.

[Silfren]

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Yeah, and I know what racist implications written into a narrative are, but I've not quite figured out how a reader can "imply racism" into a book.

I also see that my little gif on implications being a intellectually barren get out clause when you can't make a coherrent point has been lost on you. 

If you can't figure out that I question your intelligence. You just said critics have been claiming that the Lord of the Ring is an allegorical tale. Yet you haven't grasped that your own perception is the determining factor in what you see as the implied content? Wow. 

What I actually said is that critics see allegory in Lord of the Rings.  But that's neither here nor there.  When you write a story where the dark-skinned people are evil and the white people are heroes, there are racist implications. That's not a reader's imaginary perception, it is a critical observation of the writer's biases.

And the dwarves spend their times in the mountains, segregated from other societies and crave gold and riches. It's like the Jews.Ipso Facto Lord or the Rings also implies anti-semetic content. 

I can use the literary content to imply any sort of social ideology based on the flimsiest evidence as you have just done. 

There's a huge difference between critical observation of a writer's bias and your perception implying the bias into the literature. 

Not quite.  If the Dwarves had been written, say, to have distinctly Jewish names, a person could easily point to racist implications written into the book by Tolkien, which is what is being discussed when people point to the fact that Tolkien's dark races are evil servants of Sauron while his white races are heroes of the West. 

But the dwarves are actually drawn from mythological lore about mythological beings.  You reading and saying that the dwarves must represent Jews because (you think) only Jews as a group love gold, that would be an example of the reader bringing THEIR racist assumptions into the book.

[Steelcan]

TommyServo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Ever heard of a pogrom?  People who exterminated jews would not likely be ones to accept large populayoona of visully distinct people.  Im not going to deny that people of other races lived in Europe, Im denying that they were a sizable part of the population.

Fundamentally, I'm denying that whatever the racial composition might have been in medieval Europe has any bearing whatsoever on the continent of Thedas, which is full of elves, dwarves and pretend ethnic groups.

I am curious as to why the notion of an asian player character or more than one brown face in a big trading hub like Kirkwall or Denerim is so immersion breaking.

.  Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

[keightdee]

Darn it, I broke the quote boxes. Anyway, keep an eye peeled when watching Battlefield 4 vids and that should give you a clue. Dark skins tone look fantastic

[FKA_Servo]

Steelcan wrote...
 Im sorry what is the default Hawke?  Warden?  Shepard?  

The default Hawke and Shepard, are a load of crap for different reasons that have been discussed exhaustively in other threads. There's no set in stone default warden (apart from the quick shot in that trailer) which is a good thing.

That being said...

You can still make a black bisexual female space marine. You can still make a gay male hero of Ferelden.

Frankly, the options that Bioware have presented players thus far are unprecedented in the genres they work in. It's wonderful. But they can always add more.

[Sylvianus]

keightdee wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

JimmyRustles wrote...

..... To answer your question OP. One of the prime reason for this not happening is also because of the limitations of the eclipse enigine. Graphical engines usually have a problem with rendering darker shaders. This was one of the problems that eclipse faced. Frostbite 3 is a beast of an engine and I do wonder how well it is going to attempt to render these darker skin tones.

You're on topic. Get out.

I'm gonna go with "Probably pretty well."

http://images.thisis...ield4-close.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.co...nshots/x7tl.png
http://dl.dropbox.co...nshots/vsow.png

Haha, I immediately thought myself about Battlefield 4 but I was too lazy to show it to the poster ! Thanks !

Awesome to be honest !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:35 .

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
As per usual you make an off hand comment and then scurry away when I point out that it was utterly inane. Oh I have read to Kill a Mocking Bird, but apparantly the idea of the reader's perceptions placing a particular bias on the literature and then drawing from that there is implied content hasn't quiet sunk in for you yet.

Jesus Christ.

There is no "bias" or "absurdity" in merely pointing out that Tolkien's only persons of colour in Lord of the Rings are depicted purely as villains, siding with a world-destroying evil.

Show me the black people who fight against Sauron, and I'll concede that I've misremembered the contents of the trilogy.

Your comparison to To Kill A Mockingbird was however, absurd, biased and absolutely false. Not only does the novel not condemn white society, the heroes of the novel are all white people.

It's bias and absurdity stating it's implied racism. The only black nation who is beholden to Sauron is the Southrons, the equivalent of Africa geographically, and they are not evil, they are subjugated, and go to war begrudgingly. Or are you trying to make the point, that the Hill tribes, the men of Rhun, the Wain Riders the Corsairs of Umbar and the raiders in Arnor, who seem all to be white or Slavic aren't "evil"? because they certainly are beholden to Sauron. But, we'll just ignore all of that and say. Black people in Lord of the Rings are bad, hence there is implied racism. 

My point was, if I strip away the context of To Kill a Mocking Bird and disregard characters as was done with the above example, I can begin making refrences to implicit racism too. It's absurd. 

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

The haradrim and rhun of Lord of the Rings aren't evil because they are del skinned, they are evil because they follow Sauron. They are dark because Tolkien understood the correltion between climate and skin color.

Middle Earth is a fantasy world. Tolkien could've made the climate anything he damn well pleased. There is no reason whatsoever that the Haradrim and Rhun had to be black, and there is no reason that they had to be written as followers of Sauron. 

Why are the black people only followers of Sauron? Why do no black people side with the Alliance of Elves and Men?

[keightdee]

Steelcan wrote...
Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

Here is an entire Tumblr dedicated to images of people of color in Medieval Europe. Try again.

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/

[What a Succulent Ass]

Steelcan wrote...

Ever heard of a pogrom?  People who exterminated jews would not likely be ones to accept large populayoona of visully distinct people.  Im not going to deny that people of other races lived in Europe, Im denying that they were a sizable part of the population.

Whilst it's true that proto-racism began to surface after the ousting of Moorish presence in Europe, the concepts of race and racial hierarchy weren't codified until the fifteen and sixteen hundreds, and only as an artificial demarcation to discourage poor whites from creating alliances with black and other peoples of colour who ended up on the wrong side of Europe's imperial era. The word "racism" itself wasn't even in use until something like seventy years ago.

Prior to this, ethnicity and religion were the primary "justifications" for prejudice. It isn't that people were blind to skin colour (they were not), but that in the light of acculturation, it mattered very little.

...It's also worth noting that the Jews weren't themselves uniformly white (in fact, until WWII was done with, they weren't considered as such), and most Ashke**** descend from refugees chased to the Slavic empires by anti-Jewish expulsions.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:41 .

[FKA_Servo]

Steelcan wrote...

Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

But this is entirely, 100% wrong. Thedas is a fictional setting filled with fictional people.

Unless you can point out Paris, London, and Seville on the map of Thedas, I'm gonna say that it's not medieval Europe.

[Lennard Testarossa]

osbornep wrote...

Where this becomes problematic is in the assumption that being white is somehow the "normal" or "default way to be, while anything else is a deviation from the norm. The presumption is that anyone from any race can identify with a white person because whiteness is normal, but it's too much to ask of whites that they identify with a black or Asian character.

But it's not based on that assumption. It's based on the assumption that the majority of the market and of the country the thing is produced in is white. Which is not an assumption, but a fact.

People in Nigerian films tend to be black. People in Japanese and Chinese films tend to be asian. People in Indian films tend to be Indian.

This is not because Nigerians assume black people to be the norm or because Indians assume Indian people to be the norm. It's because the majority of people in their countries and in their market have that ethnicity.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:39 .

[Thiefy]

Steelcan wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Ever heard of a pogrom?  People who exterminated jews would not likely be ones to accept large populayoona of visully distinct people.  Im not going to deny that people of other races lived in Europe, Im denying that they were a sizable part of the population.

Fundamentally, I'm denying that whatever the racial composition might have been in medieval Europe has any bearing whatsoever on the continent of Thedas, which is full of elves, dwarves and pretend ethnic groups.

I am curious as to why the notion of an asian player character or more than one brown face in a big trading hub like Kirkwall or Denerim is so immersion breaking.

.  Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

 
It's not medeival Europe. There are loose similarities as Mr. Gaider himself said, but that doesn't mean it is absolutely rigid on what can be included as far as racial diversity. Then you have the fact that Europe of any time has never been entirely homogeneous, and that Mr. Gaider already said there was people of color in the Dragon Age universe, so what's your point? Racially homogeny for the the sake of racial homogeny is pointless.

[Sylvianus]

Steelcan wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Ever heard of a pogrom?  People who exterminated jews would not likely be ones to accept large populayoona of visully distinct people.  Im not going to deny that people of other races lived in Europe, Im denying that they were a sizable part of the population.

Fundamentally, I'm denying that whatever the racial composition might have been in medieval Europe has any bearing whatsoever on the continent of Thedas, which is full of elves, dwarves and pretend ethnic groups.

I am curious as to why the notion of an asian player character or more than one brown face in a big trading hub like Kirkwall or Denerim is so immersion breaking.

.  Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

Not really. Medieval europe didn't have a country like Rivain among them with black people and totally accepted. And it's funny you are talking about progrom, etc, because in the lore we heard about wars between Nations, against the Qunari, racism toward elves and mages but nothing between humans. It's very likely it didn't even happen. We've seen in Kirkwall white people totally fine with other folks of color. Like this rich black orlesian using poor white Fereldans ( ironic  given the history. )

Are you sure it's medieval Europe, or you just want to believe so ? There are simply similarities.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:44 .

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Ever heard of a pogrom?  People who exterminated jews would not likely be ones to accept large populayoona of visully distinct people.  Im not going to deny that people of other races lived in Europe, Im denying that they were a sizable part of the population.

Fundamentally, I'm denying that whatever the racial composition might have been in medieval Europe has any bearing whatsoever on the continent of Thedas, which is full of elves, dwarves and pretend ethnic groups.

I am curious as to why the notion of an asian player character or more than one brown face in a big trading hub like Kirkwall or Denerim is so immersion breaking.

.  Because Thedas is Medieval Europe, and racial diversity just for the sake of racial diversity seems rather pointless.

The only reason to consider it pointless would be if you thought it was somehow a bad thing to begin with. 

Thedas is NOT Medieval Europe. 

[Steelcan]

@Thief of Hearts, I have no objection to your second point.

To your first, in regards to Dragon Age, both the warden and Hawke are both Ferelden in race. This is part of their characterization and is fairly integral. To me it would be immersion breaking if the Hero of Ferelden and Hawke were native to a predominantly white society but were not white. Now if they were from Tevinter or somewhere more cosmopoliton it would be a different story.

[Gileadan]

JimmyRustles wrote...

Dragon age 2 did not use frostbite 2. It used an upgraded version of the eclipse engine known as the Lyrcium. Still had a few components from eclipse and it was not an overhaul.

Yep. Just meant to say that all signs point to Frostbite 3 being able to render dark skin tones well, not that DA2's engine was supposed to do so.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
As per usual you make an off hand comment and then scurry away when I point out that it was utterly inane. Oh I have read to Kill a Mocking Bird, but apparantly the idea of the reader's perceptions placing a particular bias on the literature and then drawing from that there is implied content hasn't quiet sunk in for you yet.

Jesus Christ.

There is no "bias" or "absurdity" in merely pointing out that Tolkien's only persons of colour in Lord of the Rings are depicted purely as villains, siding with a world-destroying evil.

Show me the black people who fight against Sauron, and I'll concede that I've misremembered the contents of the trilogy.

Your comparison to To Kill A Mockingbird was however, absurd, biased and absolutely false. Not only does the novel not condemn white society, the heroes of the novel are all white people.

It's bias and absurdity stating it's implied racism. The only black nation who is beholden to Sauron is the Southrons, the equivalent of Africa geographically, and they are not evil, they are subjugated, and go to war begrudgingly. Or are you trying to make the point, that the Hill tribes, the men of Rhun, the Wain Riders the Corsairs of Umbar and the raiders in Arnor, who seem all to be white or Slavic aren't "evil"? because they certainly are beholden to Sauron. But, we'll just ignore all of that and say. Black people in Lord of the Rings are bad, hence there is implied racism. 

My point was, if I strip away the context of To Kill a Mocking Bird and disregard characters as was done with the above example, I can begin making refrences to implicit racism too. It's absurd. 

The difference being that there are plenty of white characters on the "good" side of the conflict, to balance out the portrayal of white ethnicities. The same cannot be said for the black characters.

The Lord of the Rings is an extremely dense text and details are easily forgotten, To Kill A Mockingbird is a short and very simple book, the two situations are not equivalent. If you're a big Middle Earth buff, then good for you, but expecting anyone else to be as well-informed about thaat one piece of fiction? Now that is absurd.

But since you apparently are, you can explain to me when and where the motivation of the Southrons is explained, and you can also tell me what the black nations that aren't beholden to Sauron are up to during this time.

[Steelcan]

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I submit that To Kill a Mocking Bird is racist because it portrays white society in America in a wholy negative light, discriminating against white society universally.

Maybe you should stick to arguing about books you've actually read.

Yeah, and I know what racist implications written into a narrative are, but I've not quite figured out how a reader can "imply racism" into a book.

I also see that my little gif on implications being a intellectually barren get out clause when you can't make a coherrent point has been lost on you. 

If you can't figure out that I question your intelligence. You just said critics have been claiming that the Lord of the Ring is an allegorical tale. Yet you haven't grasped that your own perception is the determining factor in what you see as the implied content? Wow. 

What I actually said is that critics see allegory in Lord of the Rings.  But that's neither here nor there.  When you write a story where the dark-skinned people are evil and the white people are heroes, there are racist implications. That's not a reader's imaginary perception, it is a critical observation of the writer's biases.

And the dwarves spend their times in the mountains, segregated from other societies and crave gold and riches. It's like the Jews.Ipso Facto Lord or the Rings also implies anti-semetic content. 

I can use the literary content to imply any sort of social ideology based on the flimsiest evidence as you have just done. 

There's a huge difference between critical observation of a writer's bias and your perception implying the bias into the literature. 

Not quite.  If the Dwarves had been written, say, to have distinctly Jewish names, a person could easily point to racist implications written into the book by Tolkien, which is what is being discussed when people point to the fact that Tolkien's dark races are evil servants of Sauron while his white races are heroes of the West. 

But the dwarves are actually drawn from mythological lore about mythological beings.  You reading and saying that the dwarves must represent Jews because (you think) only Jews as a group love gold, that would be an example of the reader bringing THEIR racist assumptions into the book.

So it has to be determined by your determination does it? Why should they require Jewish names, the negative sterotype is there which had been established as the sterotype well into the middle ages. What you've done is make a cheap get out clause.  I don't need a name to draw implications when the hall marks are easily presentable. 

As I said in another post. All the other factions, which are allied or subjgated by Sauron, we'll just sweep them under the provebial rug, so the point you made isn't completely undermined by the evidence that you have removed everything which does not justify your point and declared it not relevant. 

That's what I just did, names aren't relevant. Anti semitism exists in Lord of the Rings. 

Both of these are utterly absurd positions to take.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:52 .

[FKA_Servo]

Steelcan wrote...

@Thief of Hearts, I have no objection to your second point.

To your first, in regards to Dragon Age, both the warden and Hawke are both Ferelden in race. This is part of their characterization and is fairly integral. To me it would be immersion breaking if the Hero of Ferelden and Hawke were native to a predominantly white society but were not white. Now if they were from Tevinter or somewhere more cosmopoliton it would be a different story.

Hawke is a transplant from Kirkwall - considerably more cosmopolitan. S/he could be whoever the player decides, and the lore justification is right there, because you're creating their families ethnicity when you create the character.

The warden COULD be Ferelden - but s/he could also be a dalish elf, or a dwarf, or a mage from anywhere in Thedas who happened to end up in the Ferelden circle. Anders is there too, but he's not Ferelden.

There are plenty of ways for Hawke or the Warden to be a non-white non-ferelden, and none of them contradict the established setting and lore.

Modifié par TommyServo, 01 juillet 2013 - 07:52 .